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Luis and Rocio Garcia fraud lawsuit - new thread - Feb 2015 events

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
As this lawsuit is about to fire up again and other threads are tending towards related discussions, here is a new thread for the lawsuit's current events.

Tony Ortega writes:

Days before crucial hearing, Scientology pulls out a ghost to sway a federal judge

Yesterday, Scientology filed its 25-page “bench memorandum” with 50 pages of exhibits. The Garcia side, we’re told, will now file a response, but for today, we have for you a copy of what the church filed.

We think there are a number of things going on in this memo, some rather obvious, others more subtle. But it also reveals that for this hearing the church has brought back a ghost whose name is really going to startle some longtime Scientology watchers.

Are you ready? Can you say, Sherman Lenske? (Did you just see Jeffrey Augustine jump out of his seat? Anyone have some smelling salts?)
<snip>

So the new folks are wondering, who is Sherman Lenske, and why are the oldtimers so worked up about him showing up for a deposition?

The simple answer is that he’s an attorney who helped Scientology complete its complex corporate restructuring in the early 1980s while L. Ron Hubbard was in seclusion.

He was one of the creators of the Church of Spiritual Technology, for example, the most secretive of Scientology entities, which digs vaults around the country for keeping the words of Hubbard safe from nuclear annihilation. If that weren’t weird enough, CST can, for a nominal fee, buy back the church’s trademarks and copyrights administered by the Religious Technology Center — the entity that David Miscavige nominally runs Scientology from — and take over control of the movement itself.
<snip>
So why was Lenske brought out of the shadows to take part in the Garcia lawsuit?

Mainly to counter testimony by Mike Rinder.
http://tonyortega.org/2015/02/13/da...gy-pulls-out-a-ghost-to-sway-a-federal-judge/
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Comments from above article:

t1kk • 6 hours ago

Putting aside the remarkably tenuous connection between Comm Evs and anything the Garcias (or anyone else) signed is (for which this bench memo serves as a great reminder) it's probably more important that Scientology weighted this thing down with 11th-hour evidence, making this less a "short statement" and more like a motion to dismiss or motion for summary judgment. Ultimately it's probably not going to matter. What the judge needed to see is some evidence that Comm Evs are used in situations similar to the Garcias and Scientology can't do that without cooking up something from scratch and fraudulently presenting it. Which I'd not put past them (I'd be shocked if they didn't at least walk through those steps), but there's huge risks to that, especially to the attorneys charged with selling it. So instead we Ellis's recollection about a decade-old conversation as to whether a Comm Ev *would* apply. Even if the Comm Ev was procedurally and substantively unfair, their religious freedom argument (probably coming after this) might ultimately prevail if only they could demonstrate that they actually used it for arbitration scenarios. But they can't because they're pulling this straight from their ass.


http://tonyortega.org/2015/02/13/da...t-to-sway-a-federal-judge/#comment-1851887757

Still_On_Your_Side • 4 hours ago

If the Church is adamant that the court may not rule on the validity of its arbitration rules because it is a religious doctrinal matter in which the First Amendment prohibits inquiry, then the Church also must claim that the Garcias' contracts are "religious documents." As TX lawyer opined, the church has created a Catch 22 for itself because it has not made that claim. To the contrary, it has consistently argued that the Garcias are bound by civil contracts.

I think that Judge Whittmore is a clear thinker and will not get caught in the Church's trap. Without going into a lengthy discussion of how other religions have survived constitutional scrutiny and have convinced courts to relinquish jurisdiction to their religious arbitration panels, it is sufficient to state those religions have long standing complex rules that are public. Those religions also are not afraid of judicial scrutiny. The Church clearly is afraid; it not only has failed to provide any similar sort of rule book, its last minute "Hail Mary" is probably too little, too late. I also think it is unlikely that Judge Whittemore will relinquish federal court jurisdiction to an unknown arbitration "black box." I am especially hard pressed to find any reason for Judge Whittemore to force non believers like the Garcias into that black box.
http://tonyortega.org/2015/02/13/da...t-to-sway-a-federal-judge/#comment-1852056661
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
And here's an interesting one!

TheWidowDenk Eileen • 5 hours ago

OK. Here you go. When Dr Denk passed, I was between a real rock and a hard spot. I knew by the obviously unecclesiastical actions taken on me that I was dealing with a business model. I retained Sherman Lenske to help me through the four (underlined!) years it took to sort out the personal and business matters. When -- somewhere two to three years into the unresolved business matters -- Sherman asked if there was someone in the church I could get with to help me resolve them, I said "no." I absolutely refused to use the "ecclesiastical" avenues because, honestly, they no longer existed except by one's wildest imagination.
http://tonyortega.org/2015/02/13/da...t-to-sway-a-federal-judge/#comment-1852009154
 
I am trying to understand the catch 22 TXlawyer mentioned:
If the Church is adamant that the court may not rule on the validity of its arbitration rules because it is a religious doctrinal matter in which the First Amendment prohibits inquiry, then the Church also must claim that the Garcias' contracts are "religious documents." As TX lawyer opined, the church has created a Catch 22 for itself because it has not made that claim. To the contrary, it has consistently argued that the Garcias are bound by civil contracts.

If I understand this correctly, they have a civil contract that you sign (which is basically one sided and could be considered a unconscionable contract) before doing services (which hasn't been challenged on the legal scene as yet AFAIK) that they could drag into court and use against you, and being a civil document it can be attacked, whereas if it were a religious document it is defensible under the religious doctrine. Why is he saying it is a catch 22? Mimsey

unconscionable

adj. referring to a contract or bargain which is so unfair to a party that no reasonable or informed person would agree to it. In a suit for breach of contract, a court will not enforce an unconscionable contract (award damages or order specific performance) against the person unfairly treated on the theory that he/she was misled, lacked information, or signed under duress or misunderstanding. It is similar to an "adhesion contract," in which one party has taken advantage of a person dealing from weakness. (See: contract, adhesion contract)
on line free dictionary

A catch-22 is a paradoxical situation from which an individual cannot escape because of contradictory rules.[1][2] Catch-22s often result from rules, regulations, or procedures that an individual is subject to but has no control over because to fight the rule is to accept it. Another example is a situation in which someone is in need of something that can only be had by not being in need of it. One connotation of the term is that the creators of the "catch-22" have created arbitrary rules in order to justify and conceal their own abuse of power.
Wiki

"You mean there's a catch?"

"Sure there's a catch", Doc Daneeka replied. "Catch-22. Anyone who wants to get out of combat duty isn't really crazy."

There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's own safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane, he had to fly them. If he flew them, he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to, he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.
wiki / catch22 the book
 

freethinker

Sponsor
According to the policies on Committees of Evidence, they are the only thing to be used to resolve disputes.

That would mean that on a CVB R/F that would be the very first step of the routing form.

I have a CVB routing form and no where in that form is a Committee of Evidence mentioned, let alone convened.

So Tikk hits closest in his opinion.

There shouldn't even be an arbitration system because Comm Evs are the rule in Scientology and they don't use them for refunds. Who ever got a Comm Ev for asking for a refund?
 

prosecco

Patron Meritorious
I am trying to understand the catch 22 TXlawyer mentioned:


If I understand this correctly, they have a civil contract that you sign (which is basically one sided and could be considered a unconscionable contract) before doing services (which hasn't been challenged on the legal scene as yet AFAIK) that they could drag into court and use against you, and being a civil document it can be attacked, whereas if it were a religious document it is defensible under the religious doctrine. Why is he saying it is a catch 22? Mimsey

on line free dictionary

Wiki

wiki / catch22 the book

It's a good point, what distinguishes a civil contract from a religious one, but would suggest that if the church went down the road where they suggested that the contract the Garcia's signed, presumably the one before one starts services, was for religious purposes only, it would mean that there was absolutely zero legal force and would have the legal status of a Sea Org contract. It would then create a floodgates scenario which would potentially make it easier for people to claim a refund/repayment as one is removing that tier of contractual obligation.
 
According to the policies on Committees of Evidence, they are the only thing to be used to resolve disputes.

That would mean that on a CVB R/F that would be the very first step of the routing form.

I have a CVB routing form and no where in that form is a Committee of Evidence mentioned, let alone convened.

So Tikk hits closest in his opinion.

There shouldn't even be an arbitration system because Comm Evs are the rule in Scientology and they don't use them for refunds. Who ever got a Comm Ev for asking for a refund?
And policy states the convening authority can reject the findings, which makes the whole thing a sham.

Hubbard was right about one thing - justice can't be trusted in the hands of men. A perfect example is the anti slapp in Mosey's case - the court is basing their decision on the documents presented to them by opposing lawyers, and have little actual information on the "existing" scene. If they knew for a fact Miscavage ran the show and was 99.99% the brains behind the stalking, they would allow him to be deposed.

Mimsey
 

freethinker

Sponsor
I think what he means is what Lesley Hyman said just before everything went up to the appellate court and that is that they are either a religion or a business but they can't have it both ways, they can't sail two ships in the courtroom so they can abandon one in favor of the other and later reclaim the one they left when the other is in danger.

This is something so obvious to me but seems to elude the courts in that they claim religion as protection but business as an offense. How can you do that and not make the laws unequal for everyone else who cannot do the same?

I am trying to understand the catch 22 TXlawyer mentioned:


If I understand this correctly, they have a civil contract that you sign (which is basically one sided and could be considered a unconscionable contract) before doing services (which hasn't been challenged on the legal scene as yet AFAIK) that they could drag into court and use against you, and being a civil document it can be attacked, whereas if it were a religious document it is defensible under the religious doctrine. Why is he saying it is a catch 22? Mimsey

on line free dictionary

Wiki

wiki / catch22 the book
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
From the Bunker this morning:


On the eve of the big Tampa hearing, the Garcias fire back at Scientology’s ‘bench memo’

We told you last week that Scientology pulled a bit of a fast one in the Garcia federal fraud lawsuit, submitting a substantial “bench memorandum” with just days to go before tomorrow’s big evidentiary hearing.

There’s so much at stake in this hearing, which will decide if Scientology can force the Garcias into its internal arbitration scheme, we pointed out that Scientology was willing to pull out attorney Sherman Lenske from the shadows to sit for a deposition.

Yesterday, the Garcia team responded with its own bench memo, which we think makes the issues in this case pretty clear. Written by attorney Amanda McGovern, it argues that Scientology’s problem is still that it doesn’t reallyhave proper arbitration rules, even as it wants the Garcias to be forced into them.

The memo also takes issue with the testimony of Mike Ellis, the reclusive “International Justice Chief” of the Church of Scientology (see photo), who asserted that arbitration had occurred under his watch, but then had to retract that statement “to avoid prosecution for perjury.”

Give this document a read, and it will prepare you well for what’s likely to happen tomorrow in Tampa…

<snip>

See Full Post: http://tonyortega.org/2015/02/17/on...garcias-fire-back-at-scientologys-bench-memo/
 

Leland

Crusader
Can anyone figure out what time to show up and show support for the Garcias tomorrow?

I don't have time to look now...(have to go out) but imagine one could go on Courthouse website and find out.....? But don't know which Court either....
 

Karen#1

Gold Meritorious Patron
Can anyone figure out what time to show up and show support for the Garcias tomorrow?


The *CHERCH* hates, I repeat HATES public showing up.

You cannot even imagine the frothing in the mouth when Mike Bennit and Jeffrey Augustine were present at one of the Texas/Rathbun hearings. Perhaps they feel they are being watched. Wild animal reaction.

They crave privacy without write ups of what went on particularly since they LIE LIE LIE to the Courts, to the Judges and in deposition. So if you can attend, go for it !

Here's the address~
Tampa Division

Sam M. Gibbons U.S. Courthouse
801 North Florida Avenue
Tampa, Florida 33602
813-301-5400

Mark Middlebrook
Division Manager
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
From the Bunker this morning:
http://tonyortega.org/2015/02/17/on...garcias-fire-back-at-scientologys-bench-memo/
Wow, that is some response from the Garcia team!

The thing is that it's logic and truth ...

A comment from T1kk:
t1kk Mod • 8 hours ago

McGovern gets to the heart of the matter in the following sentence, toward the end:

"By declaring the arbitration process an extension of Church doctrine and thus beyond this Court's review, Defendants in essence concede the interlocking nature of the message and the messenger such that the very nature of the arbitration process as designed by Defendants cannot be separated from Church doctrine and thus is not impartial."

In other words, not only is there no connection between the arbitration clause and Comm Ev, but Scientology's argument ostensibly forging one, which basically amounts to "because we say so", is evidence of its procedural and substantive unfairness. They proved what they set out to disprove.

McGovern also does a good job of not getting lost in the weeds but nevertheless pointing out the meaninglessness of arguments such as those relating to the origin of the arb clause.
http://tonyortega.org/2015/02/17/on...t-scientologys-bench-memo/#comment-1859956683
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
. . .
Excerpt from today
The memo also takes issue with the testimony of Mike Ellis, the reclusive “International Justice Chief”
of the Church of Scientology (see photo), who asserted that arbitration had occurred under his watch,
but then had to retract that statement “to avoid prosecution for perjury.”

Jan 19 claim

Scientology official suddenly discovers he weighs too much to fly for a deposition

http://tonyortega.org/2015/01/19/sci...-a-deposition/

The reclusive “International Justice Chief”

. . .


 

pkatz

Patron with Honors
Can anyone figure out what time to show up and show support for the Garcias tomorrow?


1330 hrs room 13B district court for the middle district of fl 801 n. florida ave.

I was wrong about the time, which I got by calling the courthouse. Sorry if anyone missed the morning session because of me!
 
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Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think what he means is what Lesley Hyman said just before everything went up to the appellate court and that is that they are either a religion or a business but they can't have it both ways, they can't sail two ships in the courtroom so they can abandon one in favor of the other and later reclaim the one they left when the other is in danger.

This is something so obvious to me but seems to elude the courts in that they claim religion as protection but business as an offense. How can you do that and not make the laws unequal for everyone else who cannot do the same?

Remember money dictates justice. If you have enough money - you can murder someone and walk away in the good ole USA.

Look at Vance Woodward getting nailed for attorney fees. WTF? I still don't get that one. He sues a church for fraud and false promises and pays their attorney fees.

The evidence is overwhelming out here in the WOG world that Scientology is a SCAM but the "show stays on the road" as long as Slappy has the dough to pay off the scum bag attorney's that would throw their own mother under a bus for a nickle.

The US justice system is corrupt just like the Church of Scientology. That is why they do business together and get all of that ecclesiastical work done!

I hope Luis and Rocio Garcia take this evil cult all the way to a jury trial. I hope they don't accept any settlement and make David Miscavige go before a jury and judge. He will get put in prison for life for crimes against humanity and that would be justice. All assets sold and everyone gets their money back. Burn all books, lectures and e-meters. All of Hubbards writings burn! Destroy Scientology completely.
 

Gib

Crusader
Remember money dictates justice. If you have enough money - you can murder someone and walk away in the good ole USA.

Look at Vance Woodward getting nailed for attorney fees. WTF? I still don't get that one. He sues a church for fraud and false promises and pays their attorney fees.

The evidence is overwhelming out here in the WOG world that Scientology is a SCAM but the "show stays on the road" as long as Slappy has the dough to pay off the scum bag attorney's that would throw their own mother under a bus for a nickle.

The US justice system is corrupt just like the Church of Scientology. That is why they do business together and get all of that ecclesiastical work done!

I hope Luis and Rocio Garcia take this evil cult all the way to a jury trial. I hope they don't accept any settlement and make David Miscavige go before a jury and judge. He will get put in prison for life for crimes against humanity and that would be justice. All assets sold and everyone gets their money back. Burn all books, lectures and e-meters. All of Hubbards writings burn! Destroy Scientology completely.

I know what you saying Knows, it boggles the mind.

I don't think the US Justice system is corrupt. It boils down to laws and Rhetoric.

Our society and culture is built upon Rhetoric by Aristole. One can do a simple google search for law & rhetoric.

here's an example:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1599632?sid=21105889929873&uid=4&uid=3739256&uid=3739808&uid=2
 

Leland

Crusader
How did Mike Ellis get that big on rice and beans?


Or, is there another menu for those at Int Base and HGB ?



attachment-2.jpg
 
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AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Remember money dictates justice. If you have enough money - you can murder someone and walk away in the good ole USA.

Look at Vance Woodward getting nailed for attorney fees. WTF? I still don't get that one. He sues a church for fraud and false promises and pays their attorney fees.

The evidence is overwhelming out here in the WOG world that Scientology is a SCAM but the "show stays on the road" as long as Slappy has the dough to pay off the scum bag attorney's that would throw their own mother under a bus for a nickle.

The US justice system is corrupt just like the Church of Scientology. That is why they do business together and get all of that ecclesiastical work done!

I hope Luis and Rocio Garcia take this evil cult all the way to a jury trial. I hope they don't accept any settlement and make David Miscavige go before a jury and judge. He will get put in prison for life for crimes against humanity and that would be justice. All assets sold and everyone gets their money back. Burn all books, lectures and e-meters. All of Hubbards writings burn! Destroy Scientology completely.

I feel very bad for Vance because he deserved his money from his account.

The problem is that he represented himself and in that lost sight of the focus that the case needed. That is a common occurrence with attorneys who represent themselves. He was forced to pay the cult attorney fees because it was decided that his lawsuit contained to many attacks against the church and other things unrelated to his refund / repayment claim. See one of the Bunker's legal advisor's comment and what else Tony wrote about the dismissal.


Vance Woodward’s lawsuit dismissed as judge grants Scientology’s anti-SLAPP motion

[..]Woodward declined to comment on the judge’s order.

Said one of our legal experts, “Woodward didn’t seem to litigate this case for a refund. The over-the-top number of pages in his filings, and the personal attacks on Scientology doctrine seemed more therapeutic than anything else. He filed hundreds and hundreds of pages of Scientology writings and asked the court to take judicial notice of the documents. It is a shame because Scientology leader David Miscavige will see this as a victory.”

Here’s the judge’s order…
Woodward v. Scientology: Order

For those who see Scientology’s ‘religious cloaking’ as a cynical manipulation, this is frustrating stuff to read. We’ve seen Scientology say that it’s a church when it results in an advantage in court, but in other lawsuits, namely the Debbie Cook case, we’ve seen the same organization, using the same attorneys, say that its relationship to its employees is purely contractual. In other words, Scientology is a “religion” only when it’s convenient. After all, L. Ron Hubbard sold Dianetics and Scientology as exact sciences before he decided, in 1953, to try the “religion angle.” (And longtime Scientologists will tell you that inside the organization, it’s still a science, and the “religion” stuff is for the lawyers.)

Successful legal challenges to the counseling processes and internal rules of Scientology — and not just about claims of harassment or retaliation or other forms of harm — have been mounted by former members such as Lawrence Wollersheim. But they are exceedingly complex and can take many years. Wollersheim proved in court that Scientology itself was harmful to him, but it took seven years to litigate and another 16 years to collect a judgment. In that sense, perhaps Vance is better off with a quick loss. We wish him the best in future pursuits. And we’re still very partial to the great job he did with us reading Dianetics from cover to cover last year.
http://tonyortega.org/2014/10/10/va...-judge-grants-scientologys-anti-slapp-motion/


Vance is one of my favorite exes and his book Addicted to Scientology: Overcoming the Ups & Downs of Scientoloholism was one of my favorite reads ( though seemingly out of print at the moment). I'll have to find out what up with that because I want everyone to read it. It was real, it was funny and it hit the nail on what Scientology does to people and what they did to him
 
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Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
I know what you saying Knows, it boggles the mind.

I don't think the US Justice system is corrupt. It boils down to laws and Rhetoric.

Our society and culture is built upon Rhetoric by Aristole. One can do a simple google search for law & rhetoric.

here's an example:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1599632?sid=21105889929873&uid=4&uid=3739256&uid=3739808&uid=2

That is fascinating stuff.

I can't believe our society does not teach this in elementary school.

Had no clue about rhetoric writing - never heard of it before Scientology.

I wonder why? :whistling:
 
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