How many Sea Org members are there?

[Mick Wenlock]

Some of these names I am familiar with, mostly because they were on the RPF when I was in 99 or 2000.

These:

John Aczel
Fred Aiken
Trish Allen
Therese Alvarez
Sally Anderson
Ann Arnow
Vince Bernal
Steve Boyd
Tom Brownell
Kevin Bryan
Patrice Bugelwicz
Richard Crundall
Bill and Maggie Denton (pretty sure they routed out)
Richard Didcoate
Anne Marie Dubeuil (I think she ended up at CCI)
Renee Karaminaser (I think she ended up back at ITO)
Dieter Egerer
Trevor Eissenmann
Ellen Farny (could have been Lynn, but I don't know for sure. Heavyset person)
John Franczak
Nancy and Hannes Gahwiler
Omar Gousche
Greg Gum (ended up at CC for a while in Security, not sure after that)
Hubert Guntensperger
Howie Gutfield

---

Off staff:

Al Baker
Klaus Buchele
Jennifer Flamand
Terry Hammie
Zane Hollingsworth
Hiroko Hondo (not 100% sure on this one, but I think he is out. He went to RTC for a while, then left SO)

----

Other notes:

Ailon Barrom went to RTC
Bob/Beth Brown - not sure what happened to them. Their child was injured in car accident (bad accident) in late 90's and needed 24/7 care
Art Colliani is Int Clearance C/S at HGB. I think it is still CMO IXU post
Alex Duvall is in PAC security
Mitch Esterman is Class IX auditor for ITO
Antonio Gueron is Class IX auditor for ITO
Burt Joseph is Class IX auditor for AOLA


----------------

I just finished through letter "J" and I am out of time. Try to do the rest another time.

This information is up to 2004 when I left.


Margaret Harder ended up at CCI

Didcoate is out of the SO though still a true believer and willing to help OSA if he can.

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

The 150 staff at AOLA would be way too high, IMO.

That is the most staff AOLA ever had in the 80s and was at a time AOLA had about 20 non-SO staff, mostly auditors and also delivered a lot of duplicate training and services also offered at ASHO, like the Class VIII course. When AOLA had 150 staff, it also had three HGCs and 12 OT1 starts per week.

I've been by PAC a with Tory and the place was so quiet, very few SO or public around.

AOLA SO is more likely between 80 to 120 at the absolute most. It was always near impossible to get the SO over that number - Flag and other organisations just ripped them off.

Unless they're all just sitting around doing nothing, my estimate by the lack of public would put it closer to 80 or 90.

It would be nice if someone more recently out could confirm.

I'm using your estimate of 80. Good point - if an org has too many good people it gets raided for staff.

INT (Gilman Hot Springs)
INT Base ……………………..................…170
RTC ...............................................10
CMO Gold ………………………................…20
Golden Era Studios ..........................30
INT Base Estates .............................30

FlAG BASE (Florida)
Flag CMO ……………………………......……….20
Flag Service Org …………………...........300
Flag Estates ………….………………...…….200
Flag Misc. …………………………………....…240
Freewinds ………………………………..........40

HGB (Los Angeles)
CSI (Church of Spiritual Technology)…23
CMO IXU (Int Extension Unit)…………...25
CMO PAC …………………………………..........10
OSA INT .…………………………............…132
Flag Bureau ……………….....…........……195
ABLE INT ……………………………..............35
WISE INT ……………………….............…….40
SMI ……………………………….............……..16
Snr. HCO ……………………….......……………..5
ILO (Int Liaison Office) ……………………..30
INT Finance Office ……………….........…….7
INT Training Org ……………………..……….85
LCI (LRH Comm Int)……………………….....1
HGB Estates ……………….....………………..30

BIG BLUE (Los Angeles)
CLO WUS ………………….................…150
INCOMM (International Network of Computer Organized ManageMent) …………………….................….. 35
AOLA ………………………………........……..…80*
ASHO ………………........................……150
LA Org …………......................…..…….100
Bridge Publications ………….....…..….…..75
PAC Estates ………………………...…..……….50
PAC Misc. …………………………...……..……..50

SAINT HILL
Saint Hill England……………………...…….185
Saint Hill Estates ……………………...….……15

CELEBRITY CENTRE
Celebrity Center Los Angeles ……....…100
Celebrity Center Dusseldorf ……...………15
Celebrity Center Florence …………....……15
Celebrity Center Las Vegas ………....…….15
Celebrity Center London ……………....……15
Celebrity Center Munich ……………....…….15
Celebrity Center Nashville …………....……15
Celebrity Center New York …………....……15
Celebrity Center Paris …………………....…..15
Celebrity Center Vienna ……………....……..15

CMO EU …………………………................…..30
CLO EU ………………..........................…150
AOSH EU ……………...............……....…..150
NEP …………………….........……...……....…….50
CLO ANZO ……………..…………...……....…….75
AOSH ANZO ………………………..……....…….75
CLO AF …………………....……………....………..20
CLO EUS ………………………………….....……..50
CLO Italy (if it still exists) …………….
CLO Russia (if it still exists) …………
CLO LATAM ……………………………..…....……50
CLO Canada ……………………………......…….50

TOTAL: ………………………………..…....…..3519

*AOLA ……………………………………..…80*
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...rs-are-there&p=1087714&viewfull=1#post1087714

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

In LA there's the HGB, the Hollywood Guarantee Building. When I was there in the early 90s, it housed "Upper Middle Management," like OSA Int, CMO IXU, WISE Int, SMI Int, ABLE Int, IHELP Int, Flag Command Bureau, Flag Bureaux, Int Training Org, HGB Estates. Bridge was at that echelon, but not housed there, although some of their staff came for study.

I have no idea how many staff there are now in the HGB. In the early 90s there were over 700. I have a list of 687 of them here:
http://fzglobal.org/hgbstaff1994.htm

Paul

Paul,

Could you estimate the percentages of how many people had been on staff for 5, 10, 15 years? It could help define a turnover rate.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Flag Management ……………….....………195

. . .


In Comm ……………………............…….. 35

1. What's this "Flag Management" entity under the heading "Flag"? Did what was the FB in the HGB move to Clearwater and I missed it?

2. It's INCOMM, backronymmed into "International Network of Computer Organized ManageMent." I don't think anyone ever used that full name in real life. It was on a board at PAC with the INCOMM name/logo, and probably letterhead etc, but I had to look it up just now.

Paul

 

[Lulu Belle]

The 150 staff at AOLA would be way too high, IMO.

That is the most staff AOLA ever had in the 80s and was at a time AOLA had about 20 non-SO staff, mostly auditors and also delivered a lot of duplicate training and services also offered at ASHO, like the Class VIII course. When AOLA had 150 staff, it also had three HGCs and 12 OT1 starts per week.

I've been by PAC a with Tory and the place was so quiet, very few SO or public around.

AOLA SO is more likely between 80 to 120 at the absolute most. It was always near impossible to get the SO over that number - Flag and other organisations just ripped them off.

Unless they're all just sitting around doing nothing, my estimate by the lack of public would put it closer to 80 or 90.

It would be nice if someone more recently out could confirm.

Yeah, Sheila. I was thinking pretty much the same thing.

Personally I think a lot of the estimates here of the staff of the orgs are higher than they probably actually are.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Paul,

Could you estimate the percentages of how many people had been on staff for 5, 10, 15 years? It could help define a turnover rate.

Estimate? To some extent, but it's far closer to a wild-ass guess than based on a lot of data. I'm just talking about the peeps in the HGB as they were the only ones I was somewhat familiar with. PAC peeps (ASHO, AOLA etc) I saw some of most days in passing, but not to talk to or know much of their history. So these WAGGED figures would apply to roughly 1995, 20 years ago.

• <5 ... 40%
• 5-10 ... 30%
• 10-15 ... 20%
• >15 ... 10%

Paul

 

[Dulloldfart]

Personally I think a lot of the estimates here of the staff of the orgs are higher than they probably actually are.

I read something here a few years ago that referred to my 1994-ish OSA Int list and said that there were only 30-40 in the HGB now. But this is all flailing around wildly. Can't someone who lives in LA go there in the morning and count (= video probably) who gets off the buses in the morning? They used to be (20 years ago!) staggered a bit because of a limited number of buses and serving breakfast to everyone, but they still only spread out the morning arrivals to between something like 7:45 and 9:15 for 95% of everybody there. Plus a few cars and whatever, but they still come at the same time.

Paul

 

[Lulu Belle]

Even when I was actually on staff in the Sea Org, I actually didn't really know how many staff other orgs had. Hell, I don't think I really knew how many staff my org had. With people leaving and getting RPFed and getting ripped off for other orgs or whatever, the number seemed to fluctuate daily.

Keep in mind too that the "levels" of orgs these days are pretty well segregated. The service orgs aren't privy to the innerworkings of middle management, who in turn aren't privy to what goes on at Int. So I don't really know if any one staff member, even a current one, would have this information.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Even when I was actually on staff in the Sea Org, I actually didn't really know how many staff other orgs had.

True. We want some management-type person who had both access to and an interest in personnel numbers on the computerised system that was (presumably still is) in the HGB or at Int.

For example, in the early 90s there was an amnesty person on post in the FB, who had the job of getting all staff to "take" the amnesty. Plus public too, but we're just looking at staff here. He would have known intimately how many staff there were total, both SO and non-SO. At least, within the limits of what "the number of staff" means, as there's always a grey area of people who maybe are or maybe aren't depending on who's counting and for what purpose.

Paul

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

Estimate? To some extent, but it's far closer to a wild-ass guess than based on a lot of data. I'm just talking about the peeps in the HGB as they were the only ones I was somewhat familiar with. PAC peeps (ASHO, AOLA etc) I saw some of most days in passing, but not to talk to or know much of their history. So these WAGGED figures would apply to roughly 1995, 20 years ago.

• <5 ... 40%
• 5-10 ... 30%
• 10-15 ... 20%
• >15 ... 10%

Paul

When I reviewed your list of names, from what I remember, my impression was that there was probably about 100% turnover within 12-15 years. This is not "turnover" per traditional business calculations. I'd say it is more of an estimate of retention. We don't know what the attrition or recruitment rates or percentages are. It looks to me like there would need to be a 100 percent replacement of the count in about 12 years during this time period but maybe someone else has a better way to approach the math. Another way of putting this might be that out of every 100 people 8.43 will leave every year and the average stay is 11.86 years. Somehow those figures strike me as being overly conservative or skewed by extreme cases. If there are 3500 total then they need 295 new recruits every year to maintain the count, or .81 every day. Either their total number must be lower (I think this is the case), they are recruiting people easier (read: Russians), or the numbers for Liaison Office/Recruitment units probably needs to be beefed up.

• <5 ... 40% (60% turnover ÷ 5 years = 12%)
• 5-10 ... 30% (70 ÷ 7.5 = 9.33%)
• 10-15 ... 20% (80 ÷ 12.5 = 6.4%)
• >15 ... 10% (90 ÷ 15 = 6%)

Average percent turnover 33.73 ÷ 4 = 8.43 years
100% ÷ 8.43 = 100 percent turnover in 11.86 years

 

[Dulloldfart]

With regard to turnover it used to be that quite a few left with weeks or months, but if they stuck it out for a while they tended to hang around for a longer stay. Very vague with regard to actual figures, but I mean I wouldn't expect a linear attrition rate.

I get the idea that staff these days tends to be mostly oldies and young'uns, i.e. veterans with decades of experience (who never look online) and newbies who know nothing -- probably can't read [!] or don't speak English well -- and what they read online in their native tongue said little about the cult, with not so many in the middle.

We have a lot of opinions (including mine) and not so much data on this thread!

Paul

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

1. What's this "Flag Management" entity under the heading "Flag"? Did what was the FB in the HGB move to Clearwater and I missed it?

2. It's INCOMM, backronymmed into "International Network of Computer Organized ManageMent." I don't think anyone ever used that full name in real life. It was on a board at PAC with the INCOMM name/logo, and probably letterhead etc, but I had to look it up just now.

Paul

I moved Flag Bureau under HGB.

INCOMM are the guys that use all those encrypted microwave dishes.

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

///
I get the idea that staff these days tends to be mostly oldies and young'uns, i.e. veterans with decades of experience (who never look online) and newbies who know nothing -- probably can't read [!] or don't speak English well -- and what they read online in their native tongue said little about the cult, with not so many in the middle.
///

It makes me wonder how the internal culture would change. When I see these Eastern Europeans on the videos I have to wonder when they get so defensive if it is out of personal conviction that Scientology is what it says it is or simply because it is their means to a Green Card? I can definitely see how someone from a former Soviet block country would be able to get comfortable within the Sea Org if it meant putting down roots in the US but eventually this has to reflect in the nature of training and auditing.

Vee hav vays tu mayk u tawk, ...I mean, " This is the auditing question".

 

[Jump]

When I reviewed your list of names, from what I remember, my impression was that there was probably about 100% turnover within 12-15 years. This is not "turnover" per traditional business calculations. I'd say it is more of an estimate of retention. We don't know what the attrition or recruitment rates or percentages are. It looks to me like there would need to be a 100 percent replacement of the count in about 12 years during this time period but maybe someone else has a better way to approach the math. Another way of putting this might be that out of every 100 people 8.43 will leave every year and the average stay is 11.86 years. Somehow those figures strike me as being overly conservative or skewed by extreme cases. If there are 3500 total then they need 295 new recruits every year to maintain the count, or .81 every day. Either their total number must be lower (I think this is the case), they are recruiting people easier (read: Russians), or the numbers for Liaison Office/Recruitment units probably needs to be beefed up.

• <5 ... 40% (60% turnover ÷ 5 years = 12%)
• 5-10 ... 30% (70 ÷ 7.5 = 9.33%)
• 10-15 ... 20% (80 ÷ 12.5 = 6.4%)
• >15 ... 10% (90 ÷ 15 = 6%)

Average percent turnover 33.73 ÷ 4 = 8.43 years
100% ÷ 8.43 = 100 percent turnover in 11.86 years

These are 'rate of change' problems and to do properly require some calculus , not just division.

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

These are 'rate of change' problems and to do properly require some calculus , not just division.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uki4lrLzRaU

 

[Mick Wenlock]

With regard to turnover it used to be that quite a few left with weeks or months, but if they stuck it out for a while they tended to hang around for a longer stay. Very vague with regard to actual figures, but I mean I wouldn't expect a linear attrition rate.

I get the idea that staff these days tends to be mostly oldies and young'uns, i.e. veterans with decades of experience (who never look online) and newbies who know nothing -- probably can't read [!] or don't speak English well -- and what they read online in their native tongue said little about the cult, with not so many in the middle.

We have a lot of opinions (including mine) and not so much data on this thread!

Paul

I think a part of the problem is that those who could visit the places or at least get a closer look are those who are the least likely to be able to discern what it is they are seeing. Whereas most of us who were in would rather eat shit than go near those places - well at least that's how i feel. Back in 2001 we were in Copenhagen on vacation and ended up in Jernbanegade but only because my favorite irish bar in Copenhagen is on the opposite side of the street from AOSH EU.

Actually one thing I never thought of - ask Mike Rinder. I'll send him an email.

 

[He-man]

I think a part of the problem is that those who could visit the places or at least get a closer look are those who are the least likely to be able to discern what it is they are seeing. Whereas most of us who were in would rather eat shit than go near those places - well at least that's how i feel. Back in 2001 we were in Copenhagen on vacation and ended up in Jernbanegade but only because my favorite irish bar in Copenhagen is on the opposite side of the street from AOSH EU.

Actually one thing I never thought of - ask Mike Rinder. I'll send him an email.

That's hilarious, I did the EXACT same thing a couple of years ago when I was in Cph, went to the pub on the opposite! But I did it because I'm Curious George, wanted to see if I could spot any old friends.

 

[Dulloldfart]

These are 'rate of change' problems and to do properly require some calculus , not just division.

It seems inappropriate to do precise calculations on such WAGGED numbers. I pretty much pulled them out of my ass, and you want to get down and dirty and do differential calculus on them?

Paul

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

It seems inappropriate to do precise calculations on such WAGGED numbers. I pretty much pulled them out of my ass, and you want to get down and dirty and do differential calculus on them?

Paul

We all know these numbers so far are just guesses. This list is only a crude framework to build on and there are a lot of variables that can skew it wildly in either direction. The baseline seems like it wants to be around the 3500 area but from reports of observations about empty orgs I'd expect this to be corrected downward. I have seen instances where they let areas contract to ridiculously low levels regardless of work load so the irreducible minimum should not be underestimated.

I would love to see someone else work the math on this from another angle, especially with some realistic figures.

Is anyone in touch with Wise Beard Man? He is right across from SO berthing in Clearwater, isn't he? I think the typical bus has about 50 seats.

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

In this article John P. Capitalist tries to estimate the Sea Org count by building square footage. This might work for normal businesses that have predictable overhead but without income or property tax they could leave these buildings empty except for a few watchmen and a central legal and accounting department to respond to official correspondence and pay the carrying costs. And on the other hand they could stuff them floor to ceiling with bunks. Normal office and living spaces can be expected to respect a certain minimum of square feet per person to preserve a standard of living but that does not apply here.

Trying to estimate number of staff based on revenues seems unreliable also. They could have 500 people paying a few hundred for intro courses and 1 whale providing millions.

A traffic count would be helpful where crew must transport from a work location to berthing but a person can exist within Big Blue and the Fort Harrison without leaving the building.

Some of the comments are very constructive.

http://www.johnpcapitalist.com/2014/03/an-interesting-data-point-on-sea-org-headcount-and-revenue/

An Interesting Data Point on Sea Org Headcount and Revenue
///
http://tonyortega.org/2014/03/23/th...resh-information-from-a-blown-sea-org-member/
_____
Videos of Flag crew buses unloading:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCMqdRK3rZ-G_glnHuIQDkw