The Verdict

[George Layton]

No Pitsy...

I didn't read the whole "In defense of Hubbard" thread but if you check it yourself you'll find when you, FBM, HH and I engaged in lively discourse it was entirely in relation to Derek Greene. In fact at that time I was surprised none of you three entered the more perjorative case of the eight year old deaf girl into the debate.

And though I would agree that to have been rather objectionable the story ends in a way that affirms the propriety of extending tolerance, understanding, compassion and forgiveness to Hubbard on the subject of the chain locker. The girl had been there five days and some good woman on the ship found out about it and appealed to John McMaster. He checked it out and they went to Hubbard. His response was "O God! I didn't know. Well get her out." Yes, yes, yes I know, the stupid sonofabitch should have known about it as he was the one who ordered it. And after he said "get her out" I'm sure he just went back to what he was doing and never gave it second thought. Still (though I suppose you will contest the statement) Ron's response to the appeal shows him not to be a heartless child abusing monster

The chain locker is ancient history. No, it doesn't reflect well on Hubbard but it's still A. a minor transgression and B. ancient history. Yes. It's not something CoS will ever publish in their history of The Founder but it should certainly be noted by others. But it shouldn't be thought an issue

Current CoS treatment of children IS an issue. At FCDC I married the woman who was heading the "Children's Org". Those kids were not abused. Not per se. Kathie loved them and did superb work with the infintessimal resources she was given. What sucks is both the penurious funding and even more the general neglect by staff member parents.

Gee, I wonder where they learned to act that way from.

 

[George Layton]

Thanx Gibsie

It's not scientology I warn against but CoS

And I don't go long in warning of it because of all the other posters who do that for me.

That's why I love ESMB. I am exceptionally impressed with Hubbard's work. I've extraordinary results. I believe I've gotten "OT" results but I can't claim to be certain of it because it is impossible to prove it to myself much less to someone else. Nonetheless Tom Brady was a rookie QB drafted in the sixth round going into the 2002 Super Bowl as 14 point underdog. I was absolutely certain going in my Patriots would win AND I augured Tom for four more rings thereafter.

It's in the record book now...

There it is! In a nutshell! Right on the tip of your mind's tongue! Think less trees more forced!

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Gee, I wonder where they learned to act that way from.

Yeah George, no doubt, Elron is the exemplar and the bandmaster.

He was something less than the most desirable of fathers himself, though apparently he treated his daughters much better than his sons. Wouldn't even follow his own good advice. Quentin didn't want to be an auditor and the old man pushed him up CLXII. That's a PTS Type E situation which as we know proved most tragic.

And he wanted everything he could get from staff with scant if any concern for their offspring. And same for public - don't save that $$$ for your kids college; buy auditing! buy training!

Yeah...

This crap sucks massively

OTOH...

Many public are well reputed to be very good parents. I know I was. I loved my sons dearly and exceptionally well and I developed skills which served me well as a father from my studies in Scn.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

There it is! In a nutshell! Right on the tip of your mind's tongue! Think less trees more forced!

Yes...

Like FoTi, I am puzzled by this post

Do you think it improper my asking why you are here on esmb? You have never given the impression of being an "ex"

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Well, you can still "take responsibility" for the C's amazing run in the NBA playoffs!

I prefer B Grade - it's more Mapley (is that a word?)

Who cares if it's a word when it's the truth?

Hey1 Hey! Hey!

GO CELTS!!!

I'm big with Sox and Pats and have been since 1962

I was big with Celts and Bruins when I was a kid - the Celts always won and averaged about 8,000 per game; the Bruins owned sixth place in a six team league and sold out all 13,909 seats every game - but I fell away. However, my name is
"Bird" and, yes I do think the French Lick connection is something more Cosmic than mere coincidence particularly as he was contemporary of Magic and Dr J but that's a long strange story...

But yes...

I did poke my nose in on the Bruins in the wake of the Marathon bombing and that was a very "in the pudding" experience you had being all vastly ARCXen with both sides over the labor dispute which canceled nearly half the season.

I do believe given the exquisite timing of your return just as my own cosmodweezling was opening a stunning and never before seen blossom that you and I had metagears engaged up in that transcendent charismatic psychedelic realm referred to in the nomenclature of scientologese as "OT"...

But...

Now that you have been glazed in maple...


Returning to your litany of decades...


Which you characterize as an endless "crime wave"

Invictus

It matters not how straight the gate
How charged with punishment the scroll
I am the master of my fate
I am the captain of my soul


Hubbard was always something of a rogue and an outlaw

What a couple minor scrapes with the law in the forties?

This is less than a crime wave. Of course the dabbling in the occult with Crowley disciple Parsons an be thought controversatial. Would have gotten him burned at the stake in Europe for several centuries; maybe even hanged in Salem in the 1600's

In the Fifties Reg Sharpe acquired St Hill Manor and offered it to the church. Hubbard moved his flag citing UK's superior lines of communication to the world. The wags of the day put forth the endlessly repeated FABRICATION Ron was running from the IRS. If the IRS has a case against someone they prosecute. If they don't have a case against someone they don't prosecute. They never initiated any prosecuion.

When he leaves St Hill it was a long process to get the "Sea Project" going. Again the wags start yapping about flight to avoid prosecution and again THERE IS NO PROSECUTION. And flight to avoid prosecution is not done at such a leisurely pace.

At the end of his life...

As I have mentioned I have been disinclined to give credence to the "Hubbard threw MSH under a bus" charge but...

I just came across a quote from Ken Uhrquart who speaks of Ron's abandonment of Mary Sue as the one thing about Ron he finds hard to forgive.

I defer to Ken.

But I recommend all you YAPPING DOGS CHASING A FIRE ENGINE ON THE WAY TO A FIRE that you defer to Ken's understanding compassion tolerance and forgiveness in other matters



This deference to Mr. Urquarht's assessment does not change The Verdict

All charges are dismissed

 

[George Layton]

Yes...

Like FoTi, I am puzzled by this post

Do you think it improper my asking why you are here on esmb? You have never given the impression of being an "ex"

What I was saying there was that you had a great example of how scientology can be defined by the delusions it creates. All you have to do is look past yourself to see it.

 

[Type4_PTS]

But I recommend all you YAPPING DOGS CHASING A FIRE ENGINE ON THE WAY TO A FIRE that you defer to Ken's understanding compassion tolerance and forgiveness in other matters



This deference to Mr. Urquarht's assessment does not change The Verdict

All charges are dismissed

Here's your most truthful post ever on ESMB. You should make it your signature.

"Can't say I'm pleased with being tagged as Ron's apologist but I suppose I fit the dictionary definition" - Clay Pigeon

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

snip:


Invictus

It matters not how straight the gate
How charged with punishment the scroll
I am the master of my fate
I am the captain of my soul


Hubbard was always something of a rogue and an outlaw

What a couple minor scrapes with the law in the forties?

This is less than a crime wave. Of course the dabbling in the occult with Crowley disciple Parsons an be thought controversatial. Would have gotten him burned at the stake in Europe for several centuries; maybe even hanged in Salem in the 1600's


Let's stick with the '40s:

Ripped off the tailor in Alaska - bounced checks. Poor tailor had to resort to writing the Navy for help in check collection.

Had a despicable Naval record, which he then lied about to high heaven, a horrendous act of STOLEN VALOR that he and his "biographers" used to swindle me out of my loyalty.

Abandoned his wife and 2 children and ran off and latched on to the wealthy rocket scientist and then stole his girlfriend and then tried to rip off the guy for even more money in a "business venture" and then married the gal while still married to his FIRST wife, to whom he didn't send child support.......

Tried to rip off the Navy with a bunch of bullshit about his infirmities to get total disability, but didn't get it, but got partial and then COLLECTED UNTIL HE DIED, even after scamming me and others for hundreds of millions of dollars.

Convicted in CA for check kiting.

So yeah, the '40s was quite a decade for Mankind's Greatest Friend

 

[Clay Pigeon]

BAHHH!!!

No way is his war record despicable.

It's "undistinguished"

And you're stretching out his minor contretemps

While ignoring EVERYTHING else about the man...

 

[Type4_PTS]

BAHHH!!!

No way is his war record despicable.

It's "undistinguished"

Here's one of my favorite stories of Hubbard in the military: (from Wikipedia)

On June 28, 1943, Hubbard ordered his crew to fire four shells from the ship's 3-inch gun and a number of rifle and pistol shots in the direction of the Coronado Islands, off which the ship anchored for the night. He did not realize that the islands belonged to Mexico, an ally, nor that he had taken the USS PC-815 into Mexican territorial waters.[49] The islands were garrisoned by Mexican Navy personnel during the war.[50] The Mexican government complained and two days later, Hubbard found himself before a naval Board of Investigation in San Diego. He was found to have disregarded orders by carrying out an unsanctioned gunnery practice and violating Mexican waters. He was reprimanded and removed from command, effective July 7.[49] Rear Admiral Frank A. Braisted commented, in a fitness report written shortly after the Coronado incident, that he "consider[ed] this officer lacking in the essential qualities of judgment, leadership and cooperation. He acts without forethought as to probable results. He is believed to have been sincere in his efforts to make his ship efficient and ready. Not considered qualified for command or promotion at this time. Recommend duty on a large vessel where he can be properly supervised."[51]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_L._Ron_Hubbard

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

BAHHH!!!

No way is his war record despicable.

It's "undistinguished"

And you're stretching out his minor contretemps

While ignoring EVERYTHING else about the man...

OK, I'll allow "undistinguished" as a one-word summary of his service. But it DOES NOT summarize his non-stop GRIFTING of the Veterans Administration, nor his STOLEN VALOR.

I think, that as a veteran yourself, you should be OUTRAGED at that bum!

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Here's one of my favorite stories of Hubbard in the military: (from Wikipedia)

Yeah...

We're all well familiar that peccadillo Pitsy

He faced a Board of Inquiry and suffered some penalty.

End of cycle.

But what stretch of the imagination does this have any bearing on his subsequent work.

That his subsequent work is itself checkered does remain significant but the very fact that we dig down into such minor points in a man's life as the Mexican firing exercise is a measure of the significance of the man.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

OK, I'll allow "undistinguished" as a one-word summary of his service. But it DOES NOT summarize his non-stop GRIFTING of the Veterans Administration, nor his STOLEN VALOR.

I think, that as a veteran yourself, you should be OUTRAGED at that bum!

On "grifting of the V.A." the charge is dismissed for lack of ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER in support of it.

As to lying about his war record, that is a lame thing to do but far from uncommon. We will always have some hard asses who's eyes will fill with fire at those who lay claim to the sort of valor displayed by buddies they loved who did not return and we all respect such flames nor shall we speak against them. But most of us vets don't much mind tall tales by vets. They're our buddies. They showed up. They served. We're gonna show up next time and most of those horses asses are going to show up too. Hubbard's war IS distinguished in one way. He showed up before Pearl Harbor and didn't walk away when he was at first turned down. It is also my understanding the physical profile which got him turned down at first kept him off the front lines and that he did in fact repeatedly attempt to get a combat assignment. Moreover, in one of the notes to himself in "The Admissions" he tells himself he doesn't need to lie about his war record. It is the Christian paradigm and UNIVERSAL WISDOM to grant forgiveness and absolution to those who recognize their own fault and turn toward it's correction

 

[Type4_PTS]

That his subsequent work is itself checkered does remain significant but the very fact that we dig down into such minor points in a man's life as the Mexican firing exercise is a measure of the significance of the man.

I posted the story of Hubbard attacking an ally because I thought it humorous, but the issue of stolen valor that This is Not OK mentioned is much more significant IMO and speaks to his character. Given your position as Hubbard's apologist, I'm sure you'll do your best to spin it in a way beneficial to him, but it's not a minor point.

 

[George Layton]

On "grifting of the V.A." the charge is dismissed for lack of ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER in support of it.

As to lying about his war record, that is a lame thing to do but far from uncommon. We will always have some hard asses who's eyes will fill with fire at those who lay claim to the sort of valor displayed by buddies they loved who did not return and we all respect such flames nor shall we speak against them. But most of us vets don't much mind tall tales by vets. They're our buddies. They showed up. They served. We're gonna show up next time and most of those horses asses are going to show up too. Hubbard's war IS distinguished in one way. He showed up before Pearl Harbor and didn't walk away when he was at first turned down. It is also my understanding the physical profile which got him turned down at first kept him off the front lines and that he did in fact repeatedly attempt to get a combat assignment. Moreover, in one of the notes to himself in "The Admissions" he tells himself he doesn't need to lie about his war record. It is the Christian paradigm and UNIVERSAL WISDOM to grant forgiveness and absolution to those who recognize their own fault and turn toward it's correction

He couldn't walk away he was shot in the back while single handedly saving the country from the Japanese.
If you really want to be honest why not just say, "Yes hubbard did a lot of despicable things but all of that is ok because look how great I turned out!"

 

[FoTi]

On "grifting of the V.A." the charge is dismissed for lack of ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER in support of it.

As to lying about his war record, that is a lame thing to do but far from uncommon. We will always have some hard asses who's eyes will fill with fire at those who lay claim to the sort of valor displayed by buddies they loved who did not return and we all respect such flames nor shall we speak against them. But most of us vets don't much mind tall tales by vets. They're our buddies. They showed up. They served. We're gonna show up next time and most of those horses asses are going to show up too. Hubbard's war IS distinguished in one way. He showed up before Pearl Harbor and didn't walk away when he was at first turned down. It is also my understanding the physical profile which got him turned down at first kept him off the front lines and that he did in fact repeatedly attempt to get a combat assignment. Moreover, in one of the notes to himself in "The Admissions" he tells himself he doesn't need to lie about his war record. It is the Christian paradigm and UNIVERSAL WISDOM to grant forgiveness and absolution to those who recognize their own fault and turn toward it's correction

CP...I'm just curious......in what way does your own life reflect what LRH did for you personally?

Are you, or is your current life an example of what the LRH tech can do for an individual?

My third question is.....because you keep talking about LRH's life's work being so fantastic......what do you think LRH achieved with his life's work outside of conning a lot of people out of their money (so he could be a millionaire), creating a slave force to do his bidding and making his name a household word?

 

[Clay Pigeon]

I posted the story of Hubbard attacking an ally because I thought it humorous, but the issue of stolen valor that This is Not OK mentioned is much more significant IMO and speaks to his character. Given your position as Hubbard's apologist, I'm sure you'll do your best to spin it in a way beneficial to him, but it's not a minor point.

Spin?

I dunno maybe you aren't spinning the Mexican episode.

Elron does appear at times to be enough of a bigot that maybe he did attack an ally deliberately firing on a Mexican island because he was pissed about "wetbacks"

However, as the incident is recorded as an error in navigation, Pitsy characterizing it as "an attack on ally" is thought to be spin

Lying about one's war record is something which speaks not well of someone's character. In fact, for the most part those who did show valor don't boast of it. My stepfather landed on Okinawa in the third wave in a reinforced company of 250 Marines. 70 of them still stood for muster three months later when he earned his Purple Heart on the day the island was declared secure. I managed to get him to speak of the war more than he ever said to his own children. When he spoke of valor he spoke of a great respect for the valor of the Japanese troops he faced.

But it's a common crime, I've got friends guilty of it and I'm tolerant, compassionate forgiving sort of person

Particularly when a person recognizes and renounces bad conduct

Which Hubbard did in "The Admissions".

 

[Churchill]

As a Veteran, you can ask for help, and receive some.
You cling so tightly to Hubbard that you cannot see all that he, and Scientology, have taken from you.

It's over, though.
Scientology is dying, much as Hubbard did; screaming in terror at invisible, non-existent body thetans.
You made a mistake and were swept into his Utopian Superman delusion.
You have the choice. I hope you choose sanity.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

CP...I'm just curious......in what way does your own life reflect what LRH did for you personally?

Are you, or is your current life an example of what the LRH tech can do for an individual?

My third question is.....because you keep talking about LRH's life's work being so fantastic......what do you think LRH achieved with his life's work outside of conning a lot of people out of their money (so he could be a millionaire), creating a slave force to do his bidding and making his name a household word?

Way-ell...

In my current phase of life I'm slipping into ill health and the decrepitude of age. I am entirely confident I could be doing this even if I had never heard of LRH.

I do have some pretty nifty memories of things the tech did for me and even more what I did for others

Second question...

My current life is a good example of what over fifty years of smoking cigarrettes can do to your lungs especially when combined bad dental care, overindulgence in maryjane well seasoned with occaisional use LSD, crack and speed and frosted with obesity

The "fantastic" aspect of LRH's work; Helatrobus, Markab etc. is problematic (to say the least).

I did NOT see people being conned out of money when I was in. Both the org in SF and the one in DC sold and delivered auditing and auditor training with a $$$ guarantee that was honored. I actively dislike Sea Org conditions but it's servants are there of their own volition and, as is clearly evidenced by so many who have left they can stay or leave by their own volition and

THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE SLAVERY

What he did accomplish, in short, is in the passage from my book you quoted

 

[Clay Pigeon]

As a Veteran, you can ask for help, and receive some.
You cling so tightly to Hubbard that you cannot see all that he, and Scientology, have taken from you.

It's over, though.
Scientology is dying, much as Hubbard did; screaming in terror at invisible, non-existent body thetans.
You made a mistake and were swept into his Utopian Superman delusion.
You have the choice. I hope you choose sanity.

I don't cling to Hubbard.

I was active in Scientology three years when I left I was much stronger, more able and more competent than when I began and I had tools which have enabled me to do some wondrous things for many people most especially what I was able to do for my lifelong best friend as he died.

What do you claim Scientology has taken from me?