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Need help for someone wanting out

George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
Back when I was a Scientologist, had I read this (your words above I quoted) and it had been written by another member I'd of written a KR on you, quoting LRH, showing that you are at best a big PTS, and in need of a Severe Reality Adjustment.

Your attitude here is not at all one of a Scientologist, it violates the essence of so many basic Scientology policies, including key ones like KSW.

In my view, anyone who has no problem with other paths or agrees with almost all criticism of Scn and CO$ isn't even a Scientologist.
I don't agree with some of the people here that, when someone comes looking for clarity about what they have gone through in scientology and yet want to continue with the teachings without the abuses they have experienced in scientology, they will point toward some other version of scientology, attempting to grant the seeker the right to choose for themselves.

I believe that anyone that has gone through scientology deserves the right to know that scientology creates a world view that is false. They deserve to know that what they have experienced during any process has been miss defined intentionally by hubbard. They deserve to know that the virtues that hubbard expounded upon were used to mislead. They deserve to know that all the facts they learned about the world, about mankind, about the mind, about the spirit were lies. They deserve to know that the world they view is not real and I believe they have the right to un-finding that world.

Because a person has any experience, mind, spirit, body does not make them aware of an avenue to that experience for others. To many people believe they can teach others to have their own experiences without understanding that all experiences are only their own. Couple that with a scientology world view and you end up with people teaching scientology with the surety they are correct.

You can never take the bad out of scientology because scientology, unlike contemplation or meditation or concentration practices, which are practiced upon yourself, scientology is practiced upon others and every end phenomenon has already be defined.

Consider all that is possible with the mind. All you can imagine, all that you can come to believe, all you can make your body feel or not feel. scientology uses all of that and more to convince a person of false views, beliefs, inner worlds even past lives.

People have the right to understand that scientology has mislead them to fake worlds.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
I don't agree with some of the people here that, when someone comes looking for clarity about what they have gone through in scientology and yet want to continue with the teachings without the abuses they have experienced in scientology, they will point toward some other version of scientology, attempting to grant the seeker the right to choose for themselves.

I believe that anyone that has gone through scientology deserves the right to know that scientology creates a world view that is false. They deserve to know that what they have experienced during any process has been miss defined intentionally by hubbard. They deserve to know that the virtues that hubbard expounded upon were used to mislead. They deserve to know that all the facts they learned about the world, about mankind, about the mind, about the spirit were lies. They deserve to know that the world they view is not real and I believe they have the right to un-finding that world.

Because a person has any experience, mind, spirit, body does not make them aware of an avenue to that experience for others. To many people believe they can teach others to have their own experiences without understanding that all experiences are only their own. Couple that with a scientology world view and you end up with people teaching scientology with the surety they are correct.

You can never take the bad out of scientology because scientology, unlike contemplation or meditation or concentration practices, which are practiced upon yourself, scientology is practiced upon others and every end phenomenon has already be defined.

Consider all that is possible with the mind. All you can imagine, all that you can come to believe, all you can make your body feel or not feel. scientology uses all of that and more to convince a person of false views, beliefs, inner worlds even past lives.

People have the right to understand that scientology has mislead them to fake worlds.
While I mostly agree with what you say here, I think it's important for those Scientologists still in the CoS but considering leaving (or at least having serious doubts) to be aware of the availability of Scientology outside of the CoS. I say this because some of them would never leave the CoS if not for the fact they can continue with auditing and training.

Many of those individuals who leave the CoS to become indies later leave the subject altogether, once they learn the truth about Hubbard, his true nature, and realize not a single true OT has been made, as opposed to what they believed when still in. But some would have never left CoS in the first place if not for the fact that they can still do Scientology even after exiting the "church".

I have no problem with those people who continue to use things they took from Scientology after they leave, as long as they don't do anything to hurt anyone else. But so much evil has to be extracted from the subject I don't see why anyone using it would still want to call it Scientology or call themselves a Scientologist. :blink:
 
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No One

a girl is no one
I agree. Terril is a nice guy. I like him, too. He's really sweet, has a huge heart and sincerely likes to help people. He was one of the first people here who was friendly to me (as well as RogerB, Panda,and a few others. Later, HH and some of the Anons and really exy exes). Terril remained friends with me ever since, even though he knows I want nothing to do with Scientology and even though I usually disagree with him.

That says a lot about Terril's character. (Others, too.) Gosh, he's a nice guy.

Terril isn't going to change his mind about scn, just like Commander Birdsong won't. They had their happy moments or wins over the years and decided to keep or apply what they like and toss out the rest. There's this sort of running tension line or disagreement where Terril and other FZers like him feel they have to keep repeating that they had wins and others keep writing back to warn others not to believe the hype and that Scn is a dangerous trap.

Some things never change.

Yeh, Scn is a dangerous trap, no doubt,and Terril will gladly promote it for the FZ, but he is truly one of the nicest people anyone could know, anyway. It's a conundrum, but people are complicated.

images

Terril seems nice, from what I just saw, however it's hard for some people not to take a (very) easy opening for a little jab or a laugh. It's like Roger Rabbit and the Two Bits. It's like Your vs You're. Too vs To. Some things just scream out for a quip.

I freely admit I laughed out loud, but also think T's reply was heartfelt, and if he has helped people as stated, with no wacko weirdness, I thank him.

That being said... I have been in conversations with people who have been royally fucked over, like family, businesses, etc. continue to say and insist there is still something to the 'tech', especially the early things, etc.

I say how do you know that you wouldn't have gotten the same results from an acting, or other class as the comm course?

I personally feel that these FZ people, and others are in complete denial. If one was to face the reality that it WAS (almost) ALL BS, or stolen, etc. then they would have to then reconcile or admit to being duped, and all the lovely guilt, and remorse, etc., that goes with that realization that many of us have already had to and been dealing with. Guilt such as getting their family in, only to have them disconnect later, and so on and so on.

Jessee Prince's book and youtube interviews clearly prove that the culture at INT BASE of violence and insanity was instilled and perpetuated by Hubbard. Miscavige is a POS but is he a victim just as any of us has been? It's hard to see the forest from the trees and all that or something.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Terril seems nice, from what I just saw, however it's hard for some people not to take a (very) easy opening for a little jab or a laugh. It's like Roger Rabbit and the Two Bits. It's like Your vs You're. Too vs To. Some things just scream out for a quip.

I freely admit I laughed out loud, but also think T's reply was heartfelt, and if he has helped people as stated, with no wacko weirdness, I thank him.

That being said... I have been in conversations with people who have been royally fucked over, like family, businesses, etc. continue to say and insist there is still something to the 'tech', especially the early things, etc.

I say how do you know that you wouldn't have gotten the same results from an acting, or other class as the comm course?

I personally feel that these FZ people, and others are in complete denial. If one was to face the reality that it WAS (almost) ALL BS, or stolen, etc. then they would have to then reconcile or admit to being duped, and all the lovely guilt, and remorse, etc., that goes with that realization that many of us have already had to and been dealing with. Guilt such as getting their family in, only to have them disconnect later, and so on and so on.

Jessee Prince's book and youtube interviews clearly prove that the culture at INT BASE of violence and insanity was instilled and perpetuated by Hubbard. Miscavige is a POS but is he a victim just as any of us has been? It's hard to see the forest from the trees and all that or something.
Meanwhile, it seems Newgie is no longer posting here.
You're right. Guess I'm talking to No One. :whistling::laugh:

Hey No One, good post. :goodposting:

There is such a thing as acting like a person that yells out, "Tease me, make fun of me." Or "Take advantage of me" or "Kick me" or "Show me how dumb what I wrote might be." I've been that sort of person and sometimes still have to catch myself so I don't bend over so far backwards to help someone that I'm licking their shoes.

Seriously. All this recent extreme Liberal fluff is about, "You're all so mean to me!" Yup, given an opening, people can be real mean, vicious, even. But it's not just people, ANIMALS DO IT TO EACH OTHER, TOO.

If someone doesn't set their own boundaries and enforce them without crazy emotions, if someone doesn't respect the boundaries of others, they might as well hang a sign on themselves saying, "I am too insane to be of any use to anyone. I am useless to the pack and even a detriment. Please get rid of me." It actually invites aggression in others, so when a person acts surprised or offended, well... nature is what it is.

Mammals, birds, even insects will destroy, eliminate, kick out or stop supporting any in their group who do nonsensical things, and a couple of those that we don't normally think about are low self-esteem, acting nervous or violating boundaries or rules of behavior.

They can be different, that's not really the criteria. I've spent hundreds of hours watching wild animal behavior, especially in groups. They are so fascinating to watch! For example, a tagged bird is different. If he acts out of place in a flock he doesn't know, he'll be picked on and bullied. If he acts confident and holds his ground and does normal bird stuff well, he'll be respected and accepted and they'll think the tag is what MAKES him exceptional and even act jealous of it.

Same thing with a parrot that knows how to say a few human words. He can be ostracized or respected, depending on how confident he is about the skill he has that others don't.

So Terril, well, he rarely acknowledges or respects the fact he is on an EX Scientologist site with people who have been hurt. He brushes right past that like he has no idea there's anything wrong with Scientology. That's a violation of group behavior and boundaries and not very rational, so it's the same as wearing a "Kick Me" sign. When others insist on the acknowledgement, it still doesn't come. Were people mean? Sure. He also invites the aggression by acting oblivious to the boundaries and code of the group. That's something Scientology taught us, how to violate others' boundaries and thereby invite aggression and then label them and claim victimhood.
 

No One

a girl is no one
Thanks Just S. It's so very frustrating corresponding or talking with the close people in my life who still hold on to the "it wasn't all bad" mentality. I just want to shake them for their hypocrisy, even to the point of continuing to quote 'the old man'', when their life was shredded into tatters.

They were not there and did not experience what I did. I, of course, did not experience exactly what they have, but I do have some idea what they went through, and it was bad. I'd even say it is probably one of the really bad public stories, but none of it has been written and brought out to public attention that I know of, yet. It probably will not be. This person has little to no interest in that. They usually want to change the subject.

In speaking with their current loved ones, they, never being in, wonder why too.
After everything they went through with the person, witnessing all kinds of crazy mixed up shite.

In answer all I have been able to come up with, and I have thought about it a lot, is this: If they were to admit to themselves it was all for nothing, that would be waaaaay too much for them to face (or confront, if you will, haha).

All the bad that ensued on everyone they may have brought in, or sired, or parented, who got burned, lives ruined, or even ended up dying to those friends or family still in and disconnected. Who would want to admit that their whole life was a lie... loosely quoting from what I believe leah stated once.

Some people can face it, others would shatter if forced to do so.

I still need to remain UTR for the sake of not being disconnected from family or friends or children, or something like that.

It kills me every day. I've come so close to coming out, there is only one peg left in the board that holds a frayed string to my people still in. Someday it will break. I've been careless at times as well... almost like I'm daring OSA, et al, to find me out, yet being terrified all the same that it could really happen at any time. On the other hand, then, daydreaming longingly about what I could reveal and how hard I would protest, if the COS ever did try to fuck with me.

I only can hope that my people still in sees the light before then, somehow. Until that time, I wait and am there for them in whatever small ways I can be. If they fail or get in trouble and need someone on the outside, I can be there, safe.

If not I can only be supportive as much as possible while trying to plant little seeds here and there, very very carefully.

It's been more than 20 years now, I guess, give or take a few years here and there, and possibly a few stints back for anonymity sake.

If only I had done things differently... If only my parents had... hindsight is truly 20/20.

Therapy has been very beneficial for me.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Thanks Just S. It's so very frustrating corresponding or talking with the close people in my life who still hold on to the "it wasn't all bad" mentality. I just want to shake them for their hypocrisy, even to the point of continuing to quote 'the old man'', when their life was shredded into tatters.

They were not there and did not experience what I did. I, of course, did not experience exactly what they have, but I do have some idea what they went through, and it was bad. I'd even say it is probably one of the really bad public stories, but none of it has been written and brought out to public attention that I know of, yet. It probably will not be. This person has little to no interest in that. They usually want to change the subject.

In speaking with their current loved ones, they, never being in, wonder why too.
After everything they went through with the person, witnessing all kinds of crazy mixed up shite.

In answer all I have been able to come up with, and I have thought about it a lot, is this: If they were to admit to themselves it was all for nothing, that would be waaaaay too much for them to face (or confront, if you will, haha).

All the bad that ensued on everyone they may have brought in, or sired, or parented, who got burned, lives ruined, or even ended up dying to those friends or family still in and disconnected. Who would want to admit that their whole life was a lie... loosely quoting from what I believe leah stated once.

Some people can face it, others would shatter if forced to do so.

I still need to remain UTR for the sake of not being disconnected from family or friends or children, or something like that.

It kills me every day. I've come so close to coming out, there is only one peg left in the board that holds a frayed string to my people still in. Someday it will break. I've been careless at times as well... almost like I'm daring OSA, et al, to find me out, yet being terrified all the same that it could really happen at any time. On the other hand, then, daydreaming longingly about what I could reveal and how hard I would protest, if the COS ever did try to fuck with me.

I only can hope that my people still in sees the light before then, somehow. Until that time, I wait and am there for them in whatever small ways I can be. If they fail or get in trouble and need someone on the outside, I can be there, safe.

If not I can only be supportive as much as possible while trying to plant little seeds here and there, very very carefully.

It's been more than 20 years now, I guess, give or take a few years here and there, and possibly a few stints back for anonymity sake.

If only I had done things differently... If only my parents had... hindsight is truly 20/20.

Therapy has been very beneficial for me.
You're welcome, and big hugs to you, No One. You have a good heart. :bighug:

I spent many years living very carefully to avoid disconnection from my ex-husband, our son's father, for our son's sake. I even did a terrible RPF for a whole year to route out properly so I wouldn't be declared and they wouldn't be cut off from each other, so I know how hard it can be. All I wanted was to walk away completely with my son like Scientology had never happened, but I thought that would be taking something away from my son that I had no right to deny him. It turned out his father rarely saw him all those years anyway until he was dying of cancer. That didn't stop either of them from loving the other or stop our son from looking after his father in his final days. Our son is a really good-hearted young man. To this day, he is very close with his father's family (they are never-ins) and they are WONDERFUL.

Walking that line to prevent disconnection from your loved ones or to try to get them back is stressful and a terrible way to have to live.

It didn't work out perfectly for me. In that time, a lot of frustration accumulated and I was so upset at his father for not getting medical treatment and for our son to have to leave college to care for him that I sort of blew up in the end. I deeply regret that, but everyone has limits, much as we'd like to believe otherwise.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have been a lot more pro-active in making the visits happen between father and son (always in a Scientology-free zone, heh, like at his family's). I would have gotten a lot of professional counseling and insisted on it for our son, too. For years his father scared him so badly about getting counseling that by the time he agreed, he was a teenager and I also didn't have insurance coverage or money for it, but it would have helped a lot. I'm glad you're getting some. :heartflower:

Be good to yourself. Your self-esteem and personal value has nothing to do with getting your friends and family out. In fact, if you take the time to enjoy life in a simple, healthy way, you'll be better at handling this.

Take vacations. Visit different places. Have and maintain good relationships for yourself because you deserve it, and get and keep a good job in a place with family and friends and neighbors you know and like. You're a good person and life is short. I hope you live yours the best way you can and wish you the best possible outcome. Whether it happens or not, there's only so much you can do. Forgive yourself and love and accept yourself for who you are, including your own limitations, and realize they are also responsible for their mistakes and limitations. You can let go and still be available.

I wish you every happiness.:arose:
 

No One

a girl is no one
You're the sweetest! :love2: Thank you so much. I'm also fascinated about what you wrote about animal behaviour, but I think this thread is derailed enough now to reply here about it. I'll just say I have observed this, and I think it's really cool you have been in a position to observe so much animal life. I love animals more than people, really.

My job is good, my relationships are good. Vacationing is hard. Health is challenging.

Would love to correspond in PM sometime.

Have a great evening. :rose:
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Who would want to admit that their whole life was a lie... loosely quoting from what I believe leah stated once.

Some people can face it, others would shatter if forced to do so.

After spending 10 years in, and some additional years after that wanting to get back in, there were some moments when I considered the possibility that I got conned. That I had invested all those years of my life into an organization which was nothing like advertised, but rather was pretty evil.

Facing that was maybe the most difficult thing in my life I dealt with. That was back in the early 90's, and I could of REALLY used therapy back in those days, but I still had a phobia of psych's which Hubbard implanted in so many of us.

Now with all the information on the internet, TV Shows and documentaries, books, blogs, etc., it's got to be easier for those who get out. Well, maybe not easier, but easier to access the information which will help them to understand what happened.
 

Wilbur

Patron Meritorious
Jessee Prince's book and youtube interviews clearly prove that the culture at INT BASE of violence and insanity was instilled and perpetuated by Hubbard. Miscavige is a POS but is he a victim just as any of us has been? It's hard to see the forest from the trees and all that or something.
Sorry, but I just have to take issue with the idea of Miscavige being a victim. He knows what he's doing, and he can fucking-well take full responsibility for it, as far as I'm concerned. Being in the church as a teenager is no excuse. I got in as a teenager, and I knew right from wrong.

But you got the POS bit right.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
You're the sweetest! :love2: Thank you so much. I'm also fascinated about what you wrote about animal behaviour, but I think this thread is derailed enough now to reply here about it. I'll just say I have observed this, and I think it's really cool you have been in a position to observe so much animal life. I love animals more than people, really.

My job is good, my relationships are good. Vacationing is hard. Health is challenging.

Would love to correspond in PM sometime.

Have a great evening. :rose:
Thanks! You're a sweetie, too! :blowkiss:It's been a while since we chatted!

You're welcome to PM me anytime.

I love watching animals. Watching them helps me understand people better.

Glad to hear your job and relationships are good. Vacations and a health routine will come. Just work on what you can, a bit at a time.

Hope you're having a great day!
 

Terril park

Sponsor
So Terril, well, he rarely acknowledges or respects the fact he is on an EX Scientologist site with people who have been hurt. He brushes right past that like he has no idea there's anything wrong with Scientology.
My first posts on the net were critical. For 7 years I attended
all protests but 2 in my area. And the time I was in the US
and there I attended a protest at San Francisco. I attended them because I know people were hurt and was trying to do
something abut it. I got on well with anons and by and large
they appreciated my insights into CO$ and SCN. which filled
gaps in their knowledge.

Its worth noting that Freezoners and independents have
been subject to harassment also. See David Mayo's story. Also that FZers and critics have similar views re CO$.

Here is a video made by an anon interviewing me
at a TCR protest I comment on the paranoia evidenced by
CO$, in particular insisting on sec checking my seeing a child psychologist aged 3!

 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
My first posts on the net were critical. For 7 years I attended
all protests but 2 in my area. And the time I was in the US
and there I attended a protest at San Francisco. I attended them because I know people were hurt and was trying to do
something abut it. I got on well with anons and by and large
they appreciated my insights into CO$ and SCN. which filled
gaps in their knowledge.

Its worth noting that Freezoners and independents have
been subject to harassment also. See David Mayo's story. Also that FZers and critics have similar views re CO$.

Here is a video made by an anon interviewing me
at a TCR protest I comment on the paranoia evidenced by
CO$, in particular insisting on sec checking my seeing a child psychologist aged 3!

Your post isn't exactly a response to Sheila's comment where she said:
"He brushes right past that like he has no idea there's anything wrong with Scientology."

Yeah, you've made it very clear that you have a problem with the Co$. But that's not a response to her comment that I just quoted.

There are serious problems with the subject of Scientology as created by LRH, even without the "church".

But just as Sheila wrote, you're brushing right past that as if there's nothing wrong with Scientology.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Your post isn't exactly a response to Sheila's comment where she said:
"He brushes right past that like he has no idea there's anything wrong with Scientology."

Yeah, you've made it very clear that you have a problem with the Co$. But that's not a response to her comment that I just quoted.

There are serious problems with the subject of Scientology as created by LRH, even without the "church".

But just as Sheila wrote, you're brushing right past that as if there's nothing wrong with Scientology.
I spent 7 years actively protesting. Thats
probably a lot more than most here. Of
course I think there's a lot wrong with Scn
and especially CO$!
 

No One

a girl is no one
Sorry, but I just have to take issue with the idea of Miscavige being a victim. He knows what he's doing, and he can fucking-well take full responsibility for it, as far as I'm concerned. Being in the church as a teenager is no excuse. I got in as a teenager, and I knew right from wrong.

But you got the POS bit right.
No need for sorry. I'm not fragile. I knew posting that would be controversial. I'm surprised I didn't get more flack for it.

I just remember when listening to the Ron Miscavige audio book, feeling a sense of wow, that was like me... when he was describing his son's zeal and behaviour in his young days of wanting to quit school and join the Sea Org, work with 'Ron', & save the planet. The bits about not liking school because everyone was doing drugs, etc... and his KSW insistence.

I just imagine, if it were me, what would I have done, left with the pile of steaming turd as he was... nothing working, no ot levels past 8, and 8 being beyond wonky. Feeling that the universe depended on ME to make sure this stuff worked and I can see easily how he went koo koo for cocoa puffs, none of which excuses what he has done, just an observation I made.

I would have had libs be mandatory, not contingent on a one week stat. I would have had the yearly leave be mandatory. I would have had pay much higher and schedules 'in'. The madness that was the INT BASE when I was there, the mob of angry villagers sent to do what ...I don't know to the guy in purchasing, Sheldon, after the parts didn't come in for some project. The people that went Type 3 and who were held at Happy Valley, the WHOLE BASE or WHOLE ORG assigned a condition of confusion and forced to do the formulas from confusion up, (THREE TIMES THROUGH?!?!?!) I never ever saw that in any policy anywhere... The pigs berthing assignment of Don Bateman... and all the stuff that came after. Thank god I missed the hole, and most of the culture that got so much worse, after I wasn't there any longer.

I'm not letting him off the hook by any means... There were some really good people when I was there, and there were some real fuckers. 'DM' was one of the fuckers, without question, now he is the top fucker.

There's absolutely no reason he had to do so much of what he did. There is absolutely no justification that is enough to make sense of the utter sadistic cruelty. There are more than enough policies that existed that would have supported a better life for the staff. Sleep, Food, Etc. Period. If things had not been so bad, I think many of the people who left might even still be there.


I'm sad my parents let me - on one side, and shipped me off - on the other side to join the sea org at a very young tender age... I was entirely gullible, innocent, and had stars in my eyes. There was nothing I wanted more than to save the world. At the same time, I do not think my parents could have really stopped me, either.

Just imagining what young David went through on his path to what he has become. He seemed to have a very literal personality... I feel like I did too, back then. I thought KSW was soooo important. Standard Tech and Admin, to the comma, to the letter. Ron M. describes his son much in the same way. If then, he took things he saw Hubbard doing, and saying, as literally "how it was supposed to be". The thing about Hubbard is that he said he would go back around and pick the guy up later that he had obliterated, and things could go on from there. That was supposed to be the beauty of the conditions. A way to get back into good graces.... to absolve one of their misdeeds, etc. It wasn't about SHAME back then. You just simply did the formulas and off you go...! But now we know, after more revelations from people that were there Hubbard didn't practice that really, not really, when it came to certain people, certain things, and his grudges. Throwing his wife under the bus, etc.

There is one part I still can not reconcile though.... how he could change things up so much from the originals...? How DARE he? And where are those who were like I was, saying no, that is wrong?! I suppose they ended up in the hole, or worse, but if enough had stood up? I just don't know. I was a lowbie on any proverbial totem pole. However, deleting whole pages and so on. What did he base being able to make these changes on?
Of course none of this thinking matters a bit now. It's all a pile of steaming bullshit. :buttkick:

Boy, I think too much, haha.
 
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