Independent Sea Org *LOL*

[lotus]

What happens in SO, stays in SO...



...Geez if only that was true.



I dunno, what two consenting adults do in their bedroom is none of my business.

Lol
In the Sea Org, we are usually +or- 10 people sharing the same bedroom.

But, we are allowed our own matress, usually and old degraded bad smelling disgusting thing.

Since we are not even allowed to kiss or hold hand..don't Even think gay activities..they are literraly tortured people...Masturbation ??? Nop as when you come back to Sleep at night you are exhausted and already much Sleep deprived...None to say your room mates would report you for doing so!
The last thing a SO has in his\her mind is sexuality. A SO try to survive, avoid ethics, especially RPF and always keep a low profile to avoir being in troubles, because you have no friends, no family and you are alone on your own.

If you can eat, sleep, find some TP To whipe your arse and remain out of RPF you are priviledged and very Lucky...
That's the best you can expect of a sociopath guru slave organization.

Suppress love and sexuality...Isn't it a good mean to control a slave flock???

And free people wants to keep it alive..an independant Sea Org mouvement...
Is there a few psychs in the room please???

 

[lotus]

Hubbard, like him or not, was a guy with brains and a vision that he made into an organisation that worked.

This I totally agree with you!
Ron had a true vision, a planetary vision, and as a wise man, he succeded to create a network of big organisations to fulfill such mission ;

Ron Hubbard, affirmations

Men shall be my slaves!
​

​

 

[The_Fixer]

Of course the man claiming to be L Ron Hubbard reincarnated is a fake.

Everybody knows Elron went to Target II and he couldn't possibly have a human body there.

Will the real L Ron Hubbard please step forward?

Arrgh!

You put Mr Spock in there?

Shame on you!

 

[The_Fixer]

Thanks for an honest answer.

I stopped answering your questions because - at least in my perception - you only mock whatever reply I make.

Also, your questions usually - again in my perception - are completely non-sequitur to whatever topic is under discussion in whatever thread I happen to be commenting upon.

Since I cannot seem to have a reasoned discourse with you, I've pretty much given up.

Do not ask me questions for which you do not actually want the answer.

Sneaks, do you have an autism spectrum disorder?

Don't get me wrong, it is an honest question, no disrespect towards you intended here at all.

It just seems you have some problems with humour and just trying to figure you out somehow.

 

[The_Fixer]

I would tend to disagree. Don't get me wrong - I believe Hubbard created scientology because he wanted cash and power. But I do think he geniuinely wanted the cult to prosper and had the skills to do so. His policy changes over time were aimed to make the cult stronger, more resilient and its members better adapted to living in the world.
Hubbard realized that times change and that the cult needs to adapt. Most of his stuff until the 80s was incremental improvements.

Davy boy? Nah he's a basket case. He couldn't find ways to improve the cult even if they came right up to him and kicked him in the ass. All he knows is how to smile at the galas and try to soldier on, while alienating most of his close coworkers and watching SCN contract.


Hubbard, like him or not, was a guy with brains and a vision that he made into an organisation that worked. Davy is just sitting idly while that organisation keeps spinning more and more out of control.


Which is why independent scn exists.

Davy's sociopathic personality is simply getting in the way and has done so since before he took the reins over.

It will eventually kill the cult.

I guess that's something to be grateful for, but for all the people he ends up destroying.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Thanks for an honest answer. I stopped answering your questions because - at least in my perception - you only mock whatever reply I make. Also, your questions usually - again in my perception - are completely non-sequitur to whatever topic is under discussion in whatever thread I happen to be commenting upon. Since I cannot seem to have a reasoned discourse with you, I've pretty much given up. Do not ask me questions for which you do not actually want the answer.

I don't ever do that.

Any time I ever asked a question, I was----asking a question.

Perhaps I had an opinion about the answer, but I was asking you because you hold to certain Scientology beliefs. That is 99% of my reason for joining ESMB--to debunk my own and (perhaps) others' cultic thinking.

I don't doubt that you don't like my questions or "mocking" as you describe it. Other Scientologists/Indies of course have labeled it "Joking & Degrading". Within the cult mindset, this makes entire sense. Hey, I was in the cult once upon a time, so on this subject I am a highly qualified expert.

​

PRO TIP: The only possibility of becoming an expert on Scientology is to first blow Scientology. By design, no Scientologist can ever discover the secret forms, facts and rhetorical gimmicks of the cult if they are IN the cult. ​

​

PRO TIP: Wogs don't recognize the cult construct called "J&D". They call it satire or parody. It's a brilliantly effecive tool to deconstruct and de-power cult mind control whilst having fun. That's why Scientology made humor a "high crime". Everyone knows this, except for "knowing how to know" Scientologists. ​

I don't adhere or agree to any "policies" of what I can and cannot ask. As an SP, I have "total freedom" to say/ask anything and do not worry about cult filters or trying to conform to "acceptable" and "standard" utterances. SPs don't do CSWs.

If you didn't like being challenged about Hubbard's claims, I can understand that would make a believer very uncomfortable. I used to have a signature line under my avatar that said: "I KNOW YOU DON'T HAVE AN F/N RIGHT NOW, YOUR NOT SUPPOSED TO".

.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I would tend to disagree. Don't get me wrong - I believe Hubbard created scientology because he wanted cash and power. But I do think he geniuinely wanted the cult to prosper and had the skills to do so. His policy changes over time were aimed to make the cult stronger, more resilient and its members better adapted to living in the world.
Hubbard realized that times change and that the cult needs to adapt. Most of his stuff until the 80s was incremental improvements.

Davy boy? Nah he's a basket case. He couldn't find ways to improve the cult even if they came right up to him and kicked him in the ass. All he knows is how to smile at the galas and try to soldier on, while alienating most of his close coworkers and watching SCN contract.


Hubbard, like him or not, was a guy with brains and a vision that he made into an organisation that worked. Davy is just sitting idly while that organisation keeps spinning more and more out of control.


Which is why independent scn exists.

Interesting contrast between the "C suite" gurus Commodore/Cob.

In another well-organized crime syndicate (The Mafia), there are bosses at the top and there are thieving, murderous thugs at the bottom. In between there are EARNERS. Thugs with brains enough to elevate their own living standard and status by running rackets that "kicked up" tons of cash to the crime bosses.

In modern mafia lore, John Gotti was a crime-boss extraordinaire and his main "earner" was under-boss Sammy The Bull Gravano---who ran virtually all construction sites in NYC as well as the garment and garbage collections industries. All that through terrorism and murder. ]

In the COS (Crimewave of Scientology) Hubbard was the crime boss.

In the COS, Miscavige was the #1 thug-earner. Nobody made money for the cult like Miscavige---that's why they are now a multi-billion dollar cult.

WHAT HISTORY TEACHES: Because cult mafia chieftain Hubbard went nuts and died, the underboss COB took the reins of power/finance. That is what happened when the Gambino crime boss Paul Castellano died and Gotti took over. Well, specifically, Gotti had Castellano murdered in front of a famous steak house. There is no exact record to know whether Miscavige caused or accelerated Hubbard's death, so let's ignore that for now.

WHAT HAPPENED THEN: Gotti the sociopathic thug "earner" became the crime boss. Miscavige the sociopathic thug "earner" became the crime boss.

THEN WHAT? Then, the mafia flourished and prospered. Then the cult of Scientology flourished and prospered.

SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM THEN? The problem is that an "earner thug" is not the same as a mafia crime boss. A real boss avoids ALL PUBLICITY and ALL CONNECTION TO MAFIA THUGGERY. Well, Miscavige has (so far) avoided all civil & criminal liability to the thuggery known as "fair game" and "fraud". But like Gotti he is addicted to fame and glory. That is how Gotti was eventually destroyed, by his own hubris and megalomania bringing so much law enforcement heat that he was wire tapped and his own underboss turned on him. So, Gotti then went to federal prison for life where he put an end to Mafia mythology by becoming disfigured and dying of cancer.

WHAT DOES ALL THIS HAVE TO DO WITH MISCAVIGE? Miscavige understood well and "duplicates" the Hubbard hat of AVOIDING/EVADING LAW ENFORCEMENT AND CRIMINAL/CIVIL PROSECUTION. He is, like Gotti, in love with his own mythology and seemingly miraculous powers (e.g. the "Teflon Don") and thus lives a glorified lifestyle as if he was a billionaire. All that has worked so far, but eventually this strength will become used against him as his greatest weakness. It may be sooner or later but ultimately there will be forensic accounting and secret memos/policies and cult turncoats who blow the whistle. That is already well under way.

It might even be after COB flees his post with bundles of cash. It might be after he is indicted. It might be after he is sued to death. It might be after he dies. It doesn't really matter. Eventually all of the horrific crimes and terrorism and fraud of the misfit known as COB will come to light. And another one of the great supporting pillars of the horror-filled hoax called Scientology will crumble---and the cult will reduced to even smaller fractions of their once-thriving parishioner base.

We see, already, clear and undeniable evidence that COB is destroying Scientology from the inside. The number of Scientologists has now dwindled down to maybe 15,000 worldwide. We are WATCHING IN REAL TIME a mafia thug "earner" destroy the cult

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE GAMBINO CRIME FAMILY? Gotti went to prison for life and died ugly. Gravano has spent most of the previous decades in prison. Most of the notable/powerful Gambino thug hierarchy went to prison. The crime dynasty has collapsed.

WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO COB? That's not the important question. The right question to ask is "what will happen to Scientology?" We know the answer to that already. It will CONTINUE to collapse and implode upon itself under the weight of betrayed ex-Scientologistst who "disseminate" far better than the cult's "OTs" what a pathologically sadistic cult Scientology is. They are collapsing daily. There is no retreat for the cult, they are up against the truth by grace of the internet.

 

[Bill]

Hubbard, like him or not, was a guy with brains and a vision that he made into an organisation that worked.

I find it fascinating and annoying that this idea of Hubbard's brilliance still persists after all this time.

The more policies Hubbard wrote, the worse it got. My personal experience and the experience of many others, many rather high up, was that you "made it go right" to get things done -- and that often meant ignoring policy. Hubbard's "breakthrough" admin "tech" of "managing by statistics" is HORRIBLE and everyone knows it. Hubbard's ethics "tech" is DESTRUCTIVE and abusive. Hubbard's "conditions formulas" are laughable at best and catastrophic when followed religiously.

Yes we kept things going in the orgs and the Sea Org (and I've worked years in both), but it was always while ignoring, avoiding and pretending to "follow policy" -- because Hubbard's policies were BAD.

The difference between the early years and later years was that, early on, Hubbard was much more tolerant of people in orgs getting away with ignoring policy and Hubbard's orders as long as they were successful.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

..

WARNING LABEL TO ALL SCIENTOLOGISTS & INDIES WHO VENTURE ONTO THE EX-SCIENTOLOGY MESSAGE BOARD:

"When somebody enrols, consider he or she has joined up for the duration of the universe internet - never permit an ‘open-minded’ approach. If they enrolled, they’re aboard, and if they’re aboard they’re here on the same terms as the rest of us - win or die erase cognitive dissonance or remain trapped in a stupid cult in the attempt. Never let them be half minded about being ex-Scientologists. When Mrs. Pattycake Billy Blowdown comes to us to be taught debunked, turn that wandering doubt dedicated glare in his eye into a un-fixed, un-dedicated glare cringe & laugh at themselves. The proper instruction attitude is, ‘We'd rather have you dead deprogrammed than incapable pretending to be an able OT.’" - L. Don Hubbard, KEEPING SATIRE WORKING, 7 February 1965​

​

​

.​

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I would tend to disagree. Don't get me wrong - I believe Hubbard created scientology because he wanted cash and power. But I do think he geniuinely wanted the cult to prosper and had the skills to do so. His policy changes over time were aimed to make the cult stronger, more resilient and its members better adapted to living in the world.
Hubbard realized that times change and that the cult needs to adapt. Most of his stuff until the 80s was incremental improvements.

Davy boy? Nah he's a basket case. He couldn't find ways to improve the cult even if they came right up to him and kicked him in the ass. All he knows is how to smile at the galas and try to soldier on, while alienating most of his close coworkers and watching SCN contract.


Hubbard, like him or not, was a guy with brains and a vision that he made into an organisation that worked. Davy is just sitting idly while that organisation keeps spinning more and more out of control.


Which is why independent scn exists.

Scientology is and always was a business based on crazy (and now outdated) concepts.

The midget has proved himself to be every bit as vicious and manipulative as hubbard (though he has been far more open with the aggression) but in addition he has rat cunning and acumen that makes hubbard look like an amateur. Miscavige has made the cult what it is today ... an enterprise with serious material assets built and held together by slaves.

The only part of the above equation that the indies seem to be attempting to keep alive is the madness at its core ... which tells me all I need to know about the state of their heads.

 

[PirateAndBum]

I there's one thing the indies DO NOT need it's an indy SO. What a flaming pile of bullshit that idea is/was. There's kool-air drinkers and then there are those that have spiked their kool-aid with heroin and ecstasy and mainlined it into their veins (the indy Sea Borgers).

 

[Voodoo]

I there's one thing the indies DO NOT need it's an indy SO. What a flaming pile of bullshit that idea is/was. There's kool-air drinkers and then there are those that have spiked their kool-aid with heroin and ecstasy and mainlined it into their veins (the indy Sea Borgers).

An independent Sea Org is one of most hare brained ideas I've seen out here in the wild. It's not even worth the time it would take to ask all the right questions and perform any kind of critical analysis.

A typically nutso cult idea.

 

[lotus]

The midget has proved himself to be every bit as vicious and manipulative as hubbard (though he has been far more open with the aggression) but in addition he has rat cunning and acumen that makes hubbard look like an amateur.

I concour!

May I add my contribution to it ...

Hubtubs was harming children and small kids. He built a fake naval army of small kids he was taking from their parents and used them as slaves and as sadistic he was he has been cruel to them...

He was such a looser moron that he used Miscavige to slap people in the face. He never had the courage to face a man and to do it himself..poor ugly terrified thing...

To the opposite, Miscavige got rid of small kids and usually beats adults..himself...the people he locked are , usually, adults in a hot trailer instead of small kids in the chain locker... ( although, as mentionned by trubs, he prooves to be every bit as hubs, especially as they both enjoy locking people in the bilges of a ship...) and they both get rid of unwanted anymore spouse which are not to be seen again...

He is just one step lower than Hubbard in the scumb of the earth scale. At the top of the scale there is Davey and then LRH.

And those freakzoners keep coming here preaching to our face their brilliant scientist humanitarian...when people want to remain blind and die with their delusion about their "low hanging balls and rotten teeth alcoholic sociopath" guru..

 

[lotus]

I there's one thing the indies DO NOT need it's an indy SO. What a flaming pile of bullshit that idea is/was. There's kool-air drinkers and then there are those that have spiked their kool-aid with heroin and ecstasy and mainlined it into their veins (the indy Sea Borgers).

Yep!

Let me guess some of them fantasize in finding a nice old ship like the ole good times...an Apollo ship ...It would play Ron's sadistic laugh, and freaking lectures all day long on the decks....while they all wear fake navy costumes...
and from there, they can save us, the planet snd the universe with their red and green volumes and a few lie detectors.

Jesus!

 

[strativarius]

I would tend to disagree. Don't get me wrong - I believe Hubbard created scientology because he wanted cash and power. <snip>

Correct.

But I do think he geniuinely wanted the cult to prosper.

Yes, but only because of the above.

...and its members better adapted to living in the world.

Nonsense!

 

[Karakorum]

Lol
In the Sea Org, we are usually +or- 10 people sharing the same bedroom.

My post was intended to be funny, but I now realize it just ended up being confusing. I'm sorry, my bad.

The "consenting adults" comment was aimed at independent scientology. Indies operate in small groups, auditing taking place in literally someone's bedroom or garage. Thus the joke was supposed to be: "Indie auditing is as harmfull as two people doing BDSM or something. As long its consenting adults, who cares what they do."

A SO try to survive, avoid ethics, especially RPF and always keep a low profile to avoir being in troubles, because you have no friends, no family and you are alone on your own.

Yeah I was entirely aware that everyone tried to avoid us like the plague. I remember situations where people panicked just from having me ask anything.

Me: "I just want to ask you a few querstions..."
Dude: "Man, I'm so sorry. I know I shouldn't have..."
Me: "No I don't want to hear about your own shit. I just want to ask about that guard leaving the gate open."
Dude: "..."
Me: "Seriously!"
Dude: "I'm so sorry"
Me: "Snap out of it man! Focus: Guard. Gate. Opened."

But, we are allowed our own matress, usually and old degraded bad smelling disgusting thing.

Tell me about it. I lived in all sorts of places by now and the AB still counts as the worst dump I had ever inhabited. East Euro commieblock 1970s dumpsters have nothing on it.

The last thing a SO has in his\her mind is sexuality.

Well, I still remember how people would literally queue to take a shot whenever a new unmarried cute girl appeared.

I had an "illegal" relationship going for some time myself. Having said that, nobody from my team would even think of turning me in. The whole operation was ran on a shoestring and things would go to hell if they would take me off my post. I did the same for other colleagues - we needed every hand on deck to keep the process going.

Hubtubs was harming children and small kids. He built a fake naval army of small kids he was taking from their parents and used them as slaves and as sadistic he was he has been cruel to them...

I really hate to discuss that part of scn, because my main goal when looking back is to avoid feeling sorry for myself.

But in all honesty, was being a kid back then really much worse than in the cadets in the 80s or 90s? Or just for being a staff kid at the time? I remember quite a few parasitic and pathological "caretakers" in my region back in the day. Admittedly, the worst stuff was dished out to you by other kids.

Nonsense!

Well, I wasn't there. But pretty much every old timer that I had an honest chat with would tell me that things were better organized and less crazy in the 70s.

I'm not syaing it was all roses and sunshine (very far from it!), but I have yet to meet any older member who would claim that Davy made things better and easier for staff and SO.

Oh and just to be clear: I'm not an indie. I don't believe in the tech. I ceased to take seriously the "clear the planet" thing since I was a teen.

 

[JustSheila]

Well, I wasn't there. But pretty much every old timer that I had an honest chat with would tell me that things were better organized and less crazy in the 70s.

I'm not syaing it was all roses and sunshine (very far from it!), but I have yet to meet any older member who would claim that Davy made things better and easier for staff and SO.

Oh and just to be clear: I'm not an indie. I don't believe in the tech. I ceased to take seriously the "clear the planet" thing since I was a teen.

It wasn't less crazy in the mid70s with over 200 assigned to the RPF doing renos on Big Blue with 4 hours sleep/night for two years and staff starving on beans and rice. Remember the John Coletto murder-suicide? Big Blue renos were under Captain Bill who was directly under L Ron. Wayne Marple was under Captain Bill. Davy wasn't even in the picture. It was hell.

It wasn't less crazy in the early 70s before Big Blue when AOLA and ASHO staff were completely separated from their children, who stayed at the Melrose in dorms with as many as 25-30 two year olds with one nanny in roach-infested, filthy conditions, watching for inspectors with special drills to hide the abominable care from the officials. More hell.

It wasn't less crazy on the ships when L Ron's crew had no experience or training and he was picking up crims at various ports just to have some kind of crew and locking up deaf-mute children below for days to scream and cry their hearts out. Women were raped (it happened in the complex, too, during the "wog recruitment" era before DM, though DM also had a couple wog recruitment eras of his own afterward. They picked up drug addicts and bums off the streets.)

It wasn't less crazy during "Mission into Time" when L Ron wanted to test his wholetrack recall to find hidden treasure and went from port to port telling everyone to dig, dig dig, and when he had a man push a peanut with his nose across the deck and threw people overboard.

It wasn't less crazy during L Ron's "Advanced Clinical Course" when he tried all sorts of mind things on folks that never got over it. They're all gone.

Those people didn't stick around and were too terrified to come forward. The dozen or so "old-timers" you hear so enthusiastically from now are still brainwashed Scientologists. Thousands of others thought it was far too crazy and insane and left.

Fortunately for us, many told their stories.

 

[guanoloco]

Thanks for this thread. I almost signed my billion year contract but decided to think it over some more by applying the conditions Standardly.

 

[Karakorum]

Those people didn't stick around and were too terrified to come forward. The dozen or so "old-timers" you hear so enthusiastically from now are still brainwashed Scientologists. Thousands of others thought it was far too crazy and insane and left.

I guess it is my time to defend the "brainwashed Scientologists", while probably earning for myself the worst communicator (most misunderstood statements) of the week award. I must harbor evil intentions to make misleading statements that make others write long posts based on the misunderstandings


By "less crazy" I did not mean less ruthless.

I meant that the administration was less held down by the vertical management process and COB-induced red tape, which allowed the cult to expand and the mission holders to actually direct their activity to areas which made the cult stronger and larger.

As much chaos and self-contradictions that Hubbard's policy introduced, it nevertheless remained a system that kept scn growing both in terms of headcount and influence. I do think all of that was starting to unravel ever since the 82' conference. DM just made things go to hell faster.

What's the point in having tax exemption, if Davey can't find a way to invest the cash in a meaningful way that would improve the organisation and make it grow?


Of course talking about making scn more effective is like coming up with ideas how Hitler could have won the war. In some weird way, we should be thankful for Davy, cause he is the one making the whole thing come crashing down.

 

[JustSheila]

I guess it is my time to defend the "brainwashed Scientologists", while probably earning for myself the worst communicator (most misunderstood statements) of the week award. I must harbor evil intentions to make misleading statements that make others write long posts based on the misunderstandings


By "less crazy" I did not mean less ruthless.

I meant that the administration was less held down by the vertical management process and COB-induced red tape, which allowed the cult to expand and the mission holders to actually direct their activity to areas which made the cult stronger and larger.

As much chaos and self-contradictions that Hubbard's policy introduced, it nevertheless remained a system that kept scn growing both in terms of headcount and influence. I do think all of that was starting to unravel ever since the 82' conference. DM just made things go to hell faster.

What's the point in having tax exemption, if Davey can't find a way to invest the cash in a meaningful way that would improve the organisation and make it grow?

Thanks, DG, but I still disagree. L Ron had a system of building and raping the orgs and missions that began with his first early missions. He was successful because of timing, because he lied and plagiarized his ass off and used and abused the goodwill of those who worked for him. Just like DM, he constantly stole people's lives, money and saw good intentions as weakness and an invitation to steal.

Scientology nearly died many times under Hubbard. The "system" that saved it was the same system the mafia uses. Scientology took off with the power of the lost 60s and 70s babyboomers. Those same babyboomers woke up and left.

DM made things more complicated, but it's still all bullshit, same as ever. L Ron focused on big name writers, celebrities and fake credentials. DM focuses on celebrities, whales and celebratory certificates. DM focuses on buying buildings and scamming orgs to pay for them, but L Ron did the same thing by raiding the missions and declaring mission holders and field OLs SPs and snatching up their public. L Ron was a far better writer and plagiarist, adept at propaganda and doublespeak. DM doesn't have those skills, but neither was or is building anything to last. L Ron didn't even bother with a hat turnover, that's how much he didn't give a shit. DM is raping the field and playing the real estate investment game. He's not trying to expand Scientology, just its cash and assets. Getting ready for a run, from what I can see, and squeezing all he can until then, just like L Ron.

L Ron was complete scum. So is DM. They just have different personalities, but they both lived their lives as selfish, self-serving assholes. DM did not break the mold.