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What did ya think of KTL/LOC?

Pixie

Crusader
Ken left the SO and got declared when he was in the middle of that project. What I was told at the time was that all of the work that he did had to be redone.

I know that blonde girl (very young at the time) who was Ron Norton's daughter was on that project for years. She may have written the whole thing, for all I know.

I did my EPF with Ron Nortons daughter, she didn't even have to sleep in our dorm, she slept with her parents and got all her own way, and she got wellies when we had to walk into the muddy lake to clean it out, the rest of us were barefoot. And Ron Norton was the instigator of my demise. It was he who locked myself and my husband in the sin bin for a week to search for our crimes. Oh those were the days... not! :no:
 

Iknowtoomuch

Gold Meritorious Patron
Didn't she go out 2D with Adam Parcel??(forget his last name) from Gold. He went to the RPF for that while she stayed at Gold. :duh: Adam had a brother named James. Who I'm pretty sure routed out at some point.
She was very quiet.
I can't believe I forgot her name.

Edit, was it Cory, Kory??
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
Didn't she go out 2D with Adam Parcel??(forget his last name) from Gold. He went to the RPF for that while she stayed at Gold. :duh: Adam had a brother named James. Who I'm pretty sure routed out at some point.
She was very quiet.
I can't believe I forgot her name.

Edit, was it Cory, Kory??

I was thinking the same thing today; trying to remember her name.

I think you're right; it was Cory.
 

Pixie

Crusader
I was thinking the same thing today; trying to remember her name.

I think you're right; it was Cory.

I can't remember myself actually however she was very very young when she did her EPF with me. They were only on the base for a year or so then went back. That's all I know.
 

Koot

Patron with Honors
On the heels of the 'What did you think while doing the OT Levels' thread:

I want to know what ya'll thought when you started on your KTL (both the auditing part and the theory) and LOC?

I wanted to do KTL verrrrrry badly and was actually given a few chances to route onto it while on Staff (due to upstats, etc). Well, my PES would repeatedly put the kiabosh on it saying it was too long a course, etc. (It was even on my TIP, but oh well).

Well FINALLY one day, I got the approval that I could get just the KTL auditing (clays). I gave and received them. At the time, I was sooooo excited, I mean: KEY TO LIFE, ya know? BOY, I'm gonna become this 'super-literate, super powerful being' kinda thing, ya know? :eyeroll:

Well to me, it was tantamount to doing an OT level at the time! (I mean, I had similar thoughts about it). And I DID actually have some major wins and even people around me say I DID change/improve as a result, etc.etc..

But now, I wonder if it was really all that.....:hmm:

Regardless: Did any of YOU do KTL/LOC? What did ya think? What do ya think about it all now?
I did it at ITO on Hollywood Blvd as outer org staff. (Portland Fdn around the mid to late 80s)

I thought it was excellent, grueling but excellent. The clay table processing was a bit of a surprise for me but I went along with it and found it very revelatory. My twin/PC also had a major win on the CT. I still think it (the whole course)was life changing(for the better). The LOC on the other hand was not what I wanted to do at the time. I had just completed a very good ethics cycle back at my org and was oriented pretty well. Doing courses as outer org staff is challenging at best and downright painful at worst. I just wanted to do KTL and get home and deliver. Remember, this was supposed to Boom the org and we might just be viable then and not starving!! LOC was just a stat push and Q and A for me. Not to mention, a major wrong indication. As far as the actual course goes, well, it was a very thorough ethics education and handling that I found to be unnecessary for me at that time.


As far as YOUR gains---- You know what you got. Don't fall prey to the suppressive shit rampant on this message board or in your own environ. CHEERS!!
 

Leland

Crusader
I did quite a bit of Clay Table Auditing on others at both AOLA and CC....for the new Pro TRs Course.

What I observed was what I had already seen before...and that is that the Cult is an attempt to make a "one size fits all" indoctrination.

Where as one PC on CTP was interested in Electronics and made elaborate clays of Electronic things.....another PC at CC was into Polo....and made clays of a ball being hit around....

The thing that hit me was the "depth" at which PCs approach auditing of any sort is always different.

I think the Cult is always trying to get everyone "on the same page" ( in regards to what ever their current thrust is )...but its just not going to happen....

Since no one can talk to each other about their Cult experiences....in the Cult.....none then ever discover how different everyone's take really is on Cult stuff.
 

Koot

Patron with Honors
I did quite a bit of Clay Table Auditing on others at both AOLA and CC....for the new Pro TRs Course.

What I observed was what I had already seen before...and that is that the Cult is an attempt to make a "one size fits all" indoctrination.

Where as one PC on CTP was interested in Electronics and made elaborate clays of Electronic things.....another PC at CC was into Polo....and made clays of a ball being hit around....

The thing that hit me was the "depth" at which PCs approach auditing of any sort is always different.

I think the Cult is always trying to get everyone "on the same page" ( in regards to what ever their current thrust is )...but its just not going to happen....

Since no one can talk to each other about their Cult experiences....in the Cult.....none then ever discover how different everyone's take really is on Cult stuff.
What is true for you is true for you. The cult is real. The cult IS there. The cult is not LRH.
 

Koot

Patron with Honors
Have no experience with this course, except seeing promo, however I have read the Course Supervisor materials, from long ago before it was packaged into those books, that - in the promo at least - resemble books for preschoolers.

For what it's worth, here are some excerpts from the Hubbard Key to Life Course Supervisor Series 0 -2, 1 November 1981, Issue II:

"It all started with an attempt to train some auditors to deliver a highly sophisticated and powerful new rundown. We had this great bridge section there, all researched and ready to go. But we found we had to build better approaches to the bridge. What we kept finding was that they were deeper in the swamp than we had noticed. So we went down further and found that they were in a canyon before they even got to the swamp. We thought, 'Well, we've got them in the canyon now and that's fine - we'll just take off from there', and then we found there was a ditch in the canyon. And where did we find this culture? In a hole at the bottom of the ditch... it was part of our modern culture."

Then it goes on about how apparently literate people were continually going past misunderstoods in their reading materials, the small words, etc. (Which seems to be a rehash of something covered on the Student Hat) Then it goes into the subject of grammar, and how badly it's taught, etc.

I can remember hating grammar as a kid in school, and also remember going out and buying some how-to books on grammar, which were helpful, plus devising (creatively) my own system of grammar, so I can relate to dry boring grammar teachers teaching grammar badly.

Anyway, the Course Supervisor materials continue:

"After the course had been in progress for some time it was found that students were continually making problems out of the course which led to a major discovery: people who are PTS make problems for others and for themselves. The remedy is to handle the PTSness - the problems vanish. This discovery led to a whole new rundown for handling PTSness which can be done on people who are relatively illiterate."

The only "inside information" I have on this course that it came about as Hubbard was frustrated that the Sea Org children/teenagers in the CMO, Cadet Org, etc. were not capable of understanding written instructions, these children, many of them, having never gone beyond grade school.

In the promo, at least, the books resemble colorful versions of old Communist Chinese re-education texts, which were made to resemble young children's picture books - the message (from the Chinese communists, circa 1950/1960s) being that even a (Chinese) college professor or businessman, or doctor, has an education that is worthless, and is, essentially, an infant (preschooler), who needs to be educated from the bottom up "in the Revolution."

Of course - back to KTL - understanding the meaning of words, and understanding grammar is a good thing, so, I'll withhold judgement on this.

A couple of questions, though, for those who have actually held the books in their hands, and actually did the course: Was it "confidential"? (Seems strange that it would be, but this is what I heard, although it doesn't make sense). Was it expected that everyone - even those who were Clear, OT7, etc., Student Hat grads, Method 1 Word Clearing completions, etc. - do the course?

Thanks.
When I did it, mid to late 80s at ITO as org staff training to deliver back in Ptl. it was not required to anyone. The clay table section was confidential as to content, procedure and EP. The picture book was an undercut to having to look up long word chains. It was tough enough even with the pictures. Great idea. Pictures say things without words much better than saying it with words. One might even say a picture was worth a thousand words. I learned more on that course than K->12 re. reading and writing . AND, The clay table processing was very applicable to all life activities with other beings. I had to sign a 50,000 dollar bond to do it. That's right , we all had to sign a 50K bond.


They probably don't deliver it because it is harder to suppress someone who has done it!!!!


Just as an aside, without going into details, I would bet it does a bit of a whammy on GPMs too.
 

Koot

Patron with Honors
I can honestly say, and I've written about this before, but it was one of the worst experiences I ever had inside that cult. I was pulled off almost daily by an SO member asking me for my 'crimes', I later found out this SO member was in the middle of evil purp rundown or some such thing. She did the same to my twin, it was pure hell. I got little or nothing out of either courses and it was KTL that the 'fear' really began to kick in. I feel this is where the real brainwashing began.

It was found out during my KTL that I was having a relationship, well as much as one can on the TTC and a non enturb order was swiftly issued. I was then informed I was being 'watched', and that I was not allowed to even talk to my boyfriend anymore. I was called an 'out 2D slut', and had 'other fish to fry'.

One snog a day does not a relationship make unfortunately. If I knew then what I knew now... oh... :D I'd have taken full advantage I can tell you! Anyway, this SO member used to come into the course room every single day and just stand there and watch. Talk about making you paranoid! :omg: ... :bigcry:

LOC for me was just one long daze of confusion, I just didn't want to be there anymore during that, but there I stayed... for the following five years and ended up in the SO myself. :duh:

In short, a nightmare of magnitude.
Sounds like an out tech suppressive free for all with you as the punk!
 

Koot

Patron with Honors
Overview of KTL for those who haven't done it.

1). Clay Table Processing
2). Study of Grammar
3). Read Factors (Illustrated Version).

A perfectly accurate summation of Clay Table Processing from Div6


It is not "uncommon" for some people to get quite stuck on this and it can go on for literally months. That's no fun for anyone.

A lot of people who have a lot of upset towards KTL most likely came to grief with this step. Or they were just the victims of other people being complete psychotic tools (which is not particularly specific to KTL).

For the vast majority though the processing is quite routine and uneventful. The commands concern "problems". The PC will be asked to make a clay representation of "force vs force", "thought vs thought" or some other version of the Scn definition of "problem".

The grammar section is simply the most easy to understand and well stated explanation of grammar that I have come across. All with helpful illustrations.

There are several sections dealing with different parts of grammar.

You word clear all of the small common words in the English language (ie "at", "to", "of", etc) I have never come across as many, or as clearly defined definitions for these words in any dictionary than those in the books of this course.

You then learn about nouns, verbs and "modifiers" (a sneaky alternative solution that covers adjectives, adverbs etc)

Then onto how to construct parts of sentences, complete sentences, paragraphs, etc.

Also covered is the correct use of punctuation and what each symbol means.

Upon reflection I seriously doubt that LRH wrote any of this section. Perhaps someone who was there at the development could comment on that.

The last step of KTL is to read the Factors.

As I posted originally, you can throw out the CTP and the Factors without losing much. The grammar section is all gold!
I think the 60 small words, many of which had 10 to 30 senses were a major factor in the course. At least they were for me and the people in my course room(ITO late 80s, NOT a pilot course).

I think the Clay table section was more effective than expected. When the student, ME, had the prior steps done to a good EP and then read the factors, the effect was quite enlightening on a broad view of our present situation(life). I was already a class IV auditor at that time so there was also a wealth of data in my mind to help correlate with. Just my take on it.
 

Veda

Sponsor
When I did it, mid to late 80s at ITO as org staff training to deliver back in Ptl. it was not required to anyone. The clay table section was confidential as to content, procedure and EP. The picture book was an undercut to having to look up long word chains. It was tough enough even with the pictures. Great idea. Pictures say things without words much better than saying it with words. One might even say a picture was worth a thousand words. I learned more on that course than K->12 re. reading and writing . AND, The clay table processing was very applicable to all life activities with other beings. I had to sign a 50,000 dollar bond to do it. That's right , we all had to sign a 50K bond.


They probably don't deliver it because it is harder to suppress someone who has done it!!!!


Just as an aside, without going into details, I would bet it does a bit of a whammy on GPMs too.
My opinion of it was that, although it may help with grammar etc., it was a sort of soft RPF.

People who were Student Hat grads, Method One grads (Super Literate), and Clear, and some OT7, were being told they're functionally illiterate and out of valance without doing this confidential course.

It was over kill.
 

Veda

Sponsor
I think the 60 small words, many of which had 10 to 30 senses were a major factor in the course. At least they were for me and the people in my course room(ITO late 80s, NOT a pilot course).
Veda:

On the Student Hat I, and many others, looked up a great many small words.

Scientology had no more OT levels so made its members do unnecessary actions, which, of course, most throught were terrific.

Subtle mind control.
 

Koot

Patron with Honors
My opinion of it was that, although it may help with grammar etc., it was a sort of soft RPF.

People who were Student Hat grads, Method One grads (Super Literate), and Clear, and some OT7, were being told they're functionally illiterate and out of valance without doing this confidential course.

It was over kill.[/QUOTE

Sounds like a stat push to me, AND destructive eval. When was that?
 

Veda

Sponsor
The mid and late 1980s.

Having read (the not available to public) Check sheet for the course, supervisors were placed into a frame of mind where they had contempt for their students.

I didn't care for it, felt it was unnecessary, and possibly destructive.
 

FoTi

Crusader
I loved it!!!! :biglove:
I never got to finish it though. The C/S wouldn't stay out of my hair. :pullhair: She kept insisting that I get auditing because my twin wouldn't show up on time. :wacko: I didn't want auditing....I wanted to stay on course and keep going. Boy did that turn into a mess. That was the end of any auditing or training....she kicked me out and told me there was no C/S that would accept me in the PAC area. Then I moved to Flag and it was an even worse mess there. They wouldn't let me continue until I paid for 4 more intensives of auditing (I already had auditing paid for at Flag, but they wouldn't let me use it until I gave them thousands of dollars more), They just wanted $$$$$$$. Even the Reg at Flag didn't understand it. I walked out. That was the end of the KTL, I'm sorry to say and that was the end of my :bs: Bridge to Total Freedom. The more I tried to continue with the course, the more suppression I received from the orgs. I eventually got the idea that they had no intention of freeing any beings......all they wanted was to keep people going in circles :headspin: spending every penny they had and keeping people introverted and feeling guilty if they didn't cough up their pennies. :guilt:

I actually got a lot out of it despite all of the efforts of the C/S and some others who kept trying to stop me. I'm really glad I got to do as much of it as I did. I wrote tons of success stories while I was on the course....but of course that didn't make any difference. They spent so much effort trying to convince me that there was something wrong with me so I would cough up the money for auditing. All I wanted was to continue the course. I didn't want any more auditing at that point and that didn't fit in with their plans or the GI for the week.

I also saw friends change a lot from being on that course, some finished it, some were pulled off of it like I was, but I saw some nice gains in others. I also saw people who didn't want to be there and were miserable being stuck on KTL who wanted to continue with their auditing and didn't want to do KTL. One girl cried every day because she didn't want to be there. They wouldn't let her go. It's impossible for people to have wins when forced to do a service they hate that isn't right for them at the time, and I saw a lot of that going on during the time I was on (or not on) KTL.

After I saw what happened to Lisa McPherson I was glad I wasn't allowed to continue services at Flag....it was too dangerous there.
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Screenshot 2018-04-13 at 2.52.03 AM.png Screenshot 2018-04-13 at 2.53.43 AM.png Screenshot 2018-04-13 at 2.54.39 AM.png
A few pages. I couldn't get all the books dowloaded onto my drive at the time I found the KTL on the internet back in 2011.

Back in the winter of 1981 or 82, everyone at the Miami Org was being sent out to LA to do the KTL. The execs at the Org came back delighted with results. I was in complete mystery about it. The C/S said it was mostly about clearing words. I thought, 'What's so great about that?' Doing Method One and Student Hat etc, I thought it was fine but no wowzer. I wanted to be superliterate but the time spent from my point of view as a teenager, was too much. I'd not enough interest to get me over the humps if I started it.

I saw the little square books with the kindergarten type color pictures. I thought how uniquely different from the general JW type graphics we usually saw coming out of Pubs or wherever. I liked the simplicity. I didn't do the course.
 
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Koot

Patron with Honors
I loved it!!!! :biglove:
I never got to finish it though. The C/S wouldn't stay out of my hair. :pullhair: She kept insisting that I get auditing because my twin wouldn't show up on time. :wacko: I didn't want auditing....I wanted to stay on course and keep going. Boy did that turn into a mess. That was the end of any auditing or training....she kicked me out and told me there was no C/S that would accept me in the PAC area. Then I moved to Flag and it was an even worse mess there. They wouldn't let me continue until I paid for 4 more intensives of auditing (I already had auditing paid for at Flag, but they wouldn't let me use it until I gave them thousands of dollars more), They just wanted $$$$$$$. Even the Reg at Flag didn't understand it. I walked out. That was the end of the KTL, I'm sorry to say and that was the end of my :bs: Bridge to Total Freedom. The more I tried to continue with the course, the more suppression I received from the orgs. I eventually got the idea that they had no intention of freeing any beings......all they wanted was to keep people going in circles :headspin: spending every penny they had and keeping people introverted and feeling guilty if they didn't cough up their pennies. :guilt:

I actually got a lot out of it despite all of the efforts of the C/S and some others who kept trying to stop me. I'm really glad I got to do as much of it as I did. I wrote tons of success stories while I was on the course....but of course that didn't make any difference. They spent so much effort trying to convince me that there was something wrong with me so I would cough up the money for auditing. All I wanted was to continue the course. I didn't want any more auditing at that point and that didn't fit in with their plans or the GI for the week.

I also saw friends change a lot from being on that course, some finished it, some were pulled off of it like I was, but I saw some nice gains in others. I also saw people who didn't want to be there and were miserable being stuck on KTL who wanted to continue with their auditing and didn't want to do KTL. One girl cried every day because she didn't want to be there. They wouldn't let her go. It's impossible for people to have wins when forced to do a service they hate that isn't right for them at the time, and I saw a lot of that going on during the time I was on (or not on) KTL.

After I saw what happened to Lisa McPherson I was glad I wasn't allowed to continue services at Flag....it was too dangerous there.
I am shocked and appalled. Heads need to roll!!
 
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