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After Scientology - Getting Over the Shame and the Guilt

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Gottabrain

Guest
What do we do about the shame and guilt we personally experience after Scientology? (and how do we recover afterwards?)

Is it a good thing - pointing out our flaws for us so that we may improve, or a bad thing - dragging us down into destructive self-loathing?


1Guilt-734553.jpg


This thread is a spin-off from Sallydance's Story: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?26180-Sallydannce-s-Story&p=722295#post722295 and some misc other posts.


It begins with Sallydance's original reflections:


About my shame…



I want to write about my shame before I write about other things. I’m writing about the session I had where I became a limp rag doll, lost my marbles and then my health. I’m writing about other things too. But this shame – it has to come first.

Shame has been my companion for far too long. In very hushed tones here, for these are feelings I do not easily put into words, I am about to make myself completely vulnerable. It would be easier for me, a 50 year old woman, to post a photo of myself in a bathing suit than write about this. It would be easier to discuss periods and menopause than do this. But I’m going to do this because it is time. It is time to let it go and suck up the vulnerability.

Deep breath.


http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?26180-Sallydannce-s-Story/page49
 
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Gottabrain

Guest
Comments and Advices About Guilt and Shame

:bighug:

Talk it out, write it out. That helps. And sharing - that helps others. And that is making amends - for whatever. It is a courageous thing to do. And THAT is commendable.

And we all have shame, for something or other, or lots of others. The shame, if you bear through it, will pass. It will come back. But it is just a feeling. Feel it, understand it, explore it, but do not hang onto it. Let it go. It tells us about ourselves, and if you are feeling it, it means you have a good heart. We all - here - know that. :yes:




I recently told a friend that I wish I could casually say, "I used to be into Scientology" the way some people talk about astrology or health food or marijuana. But the shame is part of the glue...



Aw man.... *sigh*....

To start with, realize that each day you move forward you become less and less the manipulated person you were when in that situation. Face the world with a smile, let go of the shame, don't keep beating yourself up about it because, frankly, that is the sort of thing which is self defeating, non-constructive, and just the sort of weakness that the cult preys upon in the first place. That you still fall into dwelling on this is a sure sign of how deep the indoctrination becomes, how deeply such illusions can reflect into your very soul.

Accept that it is the past...Its one of your experiences, not YOU!

...its okay to be embarassed by things, don't let it eat you up though, and don't dwell on what other people think, or you think they think, carry on with better knowledge of yourself and hold your head high....

Ogs
 
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Gottabrain

Guest
...But it has been eating at me, this shame. It is so deep. Sometimes my eyes just fill with tears...It’s about my shame for having been so dumb. So used. So pliable. So controllable. It’s about the things I did which involved other people. It is about 20 years of being a true believer in all things Hubbard. And yeah, my shame is biting me hard as I write this.

I’ve thought about all the things I did in scientology – those that I can remember because my memory has taken a bit of a hammering these past few years. I’ve thought about what I believed in and how ludicrous it now all seems. I mean come on!

I’ve thought about how shut down I was, spiritually, mentally, sexually and emotionally. It has been such a huge job to rebuild myself and my life. No violins playing either, I am simply stating facts. I feel shame about the mess my life became and the state I was in. I’m not proud of falling apart with a broken mind and life.

I’ve pushed and pulled and written and wept and ranted and thrown things and told myself no end of things. I’ve salved myself in platitudes in an attempt to ease my shame. I’m heard the platitudes of those that care about me and their well-meaning words of comfort. I’ve heard it all! I’ve thought it all!

I’ve laid it all out and inspected it. I’ve tried every damn thing. Still I ache and burn and feel possessed with shame. Nothing anyone says or does makes an even small dent in it.

Leave me alone shame! Piss off!

The shame does not seem to want to move out. We seem to be in the marriage from hell! We seem destined to be utterly miserable together.

This shame churns inside me and screams at me how unworthy I am. I hide it from the world, even those closest to me. I am deeply ashamed of being so stupid for so many years and winding up at 50 with not a lot to show for my life. I hide it.

I want to scream “do you have any idea how fucking stupid I feel about having been in a destructive cult for 20 years and not having been smart enough, aware enough, to notice? Do you know what I did? Do you know what I was supporting?” I feel worthless! I don’t know how to reconnect into society with all this shame churning inside me! I want to hide 20 years of life from everyone. I am full of fear of being rejected if people find out I was in scientology!

How do I reconcile 20 years? How do I find peace? How do I feel whole again? How do I face the world and not feel humiliation and shame about being part of the cult of scientology?

Self-forgiveness? Meditation? Brain surgery?

It happened. I don’t have any excuses. I don’t have any sensible reasons to offer. I don’t have anything other than these words about how it feels. ...

Two Very Highly Recommended and Helpful Videos on Shame and Guilt:

Originally Posted by SweetnessandLight :thankyou:
[video=youtube;X4Qm9cGRub0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=X4Qm9cGRub0[/video]


Posted by The_Fixer: :thankyou:
[video]http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_listening_to_shame.html[/video]

on YouTube: [video=youtube;psN1DORYYV0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psN1DORYYV0[/video]

(more cross-posts to be added tomorrow)
 
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Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
I was never in Scientology, but I think I've picked up enough about it to understand why having been in it can seem shameful. I want to say two things, though.

One: it shouldn't all be shameful. A lot of the reasons that people get into Scientology, and stay in, are good ones. And hanging on to Scientology after seeing the evidence against it mount, that's partly good, too. Accomplishing anything big in life takes commitment, to keep on slogging through setbacks. In a more worthy cause, that commitment is heroic. Duped into serving an unworthy cause, it's still no cause for shame.

Two: some of it is shameful; but welcome to the club. An awful lot of people who were never in any cult wake up at fifty, or seventy, or whenever, and realize that they have wasted decades that will never come back, pursuing goals that weren't truly theirs, betraying the person they know they should have become. So lots of people have to deal with shame. Some more, some less — maybe; enough, anyway. Leaving Scientology, though, does mean this: you're getting that wake-up call in time to do something about it.

When I read the New Testament, it tells me that what Jesus actually preached as good news doesn't sound like what most people think of as Christianity. His actual original line was, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. To me, what he meant was that the right path is always open. There's no need to make up lost time with a long catch-up journey to get back on track. Just a quick turn, wherever you are, and you're already there. At any rate that's what I believe, and often remind myself, and to me it is good news.
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
I found that reading stuff on the internet helped me a lot. Especially after hiding for 10 years and not talking. Reading helped me talk, helped me put things in perspective. I did get Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for about a year, which helped because I had a lot of scientology in me to get rid of. But the shame and guilt lifted as I read and saw that I was not alone in my experiences, that other's, like those of or about Astra Woodcraft, Albert Jaquier, Maria Pia Gardini, Hana Eltringham Whitfield, Marjory Wakeman, even later ones like Jeff Hawkins, Mark & Claire Headley, John Duignan, sallydannce's and a host of others, were all important in my healing process.

I kept a list of sites and stories that I'd read on the internet as I went along and began posting it back in 2006, 2007 on ARS forum, so others could read, too. Eventually the list wound up on ESMB ( thank you Free To Shine :) as a sticky for newcomers. It's not up-to-date- but there are many good and working links if you read through the thread:

" Internet Resources on Scientology for newcomers"
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?21499-Internet-Resources-on-Scientology-for-newcomers

Arnie Lerma said it best for me: "The internet is the Liberty Tree " :thumbsup:
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
Bumpity :bump2:

This needs to be flagged for newbies. :yes:

Shame can spiral down if one blames oneself for what happened. But really, it is a good heart that takes that route - gets into trouble in the first place, trusting innocently and/or with good intentions, and then blames self after the down fall.

If anyone finds themselves contemplating taking own life, that the shame is just too much - that is a flag of spiralling. One can recover from that, and from the depression - and Life can (and will) be recovered. Seek help. When in that place, it is too heavy to carry the burden by oneself. Ask for help.

Helping hands will help raise you up. :yes:

And then you have this priceless gift to offer others who are in that place. Now you can help people - for real.

If I knew how to link - I'd put Jewel's "Hands" right here:

'If I could tell the world just one thing, it would be that we are all OK.'

'I won't be made useless, I won't be idle with despair.'

'Someone must stand up for what's right, for where there is a man that has no voice, there I/we shall sing.'

'These hands are small, I know, but they're not yours, they are my own, and I am never broken.'

Kindness matters . . .
 

Demented LRH

Patron Meritorious
My encouner with Scientology was brief and painless, this is why I found it difficult to understand why some ex-Scientlogists are ashamed of their past.

My cousin, who is a clinical psychologist, explained it to me. Victims of any kind of scam, including a money scam, feel deep shame because, in their view, they were so stupid that someone took advantage of them.

I know an old lady who lost a lot of money to the crooks who called her on the phone once and anounced that she had won $ 6 million in a lottery that she knew nothing about. That scam cost her $100,000. Now she cannot face herself in a mirror because she is so ashamed of herself.

Eventually the shame goes away, but it takes years of hard work.
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
I think you're predisposed to guilt and shame when leaving Scn because it's built into the belief system at every step of the way that it's the only hope of mankind. On the flip side, anyone who WOULD leave is defined in the most degrading terms. You're a failure for not having "gotten it", you're a failure for not having "made it go right", you're a failure for not having "taken responsibility" ...the list could go on. All Scn but staff in particular are considered failures if they choose to leave.

So you work through all that and you start to decompress and then you have this unholy cacaphony of wtfs to deal with as you start to realise exactly what was happening to you. IMO that's the point when shame of association sets in, but I think that while that might be really uncomfortable, it's actually a sign that you've broken out of the cult mindset enough to start to see.

For me, the shame didn't really start to diminish until I stopped blaming/hating myself for having experienced it in the first place. Yes, I made the choices that led me into it. But I was a kid without a clue about life in the real world, and there was nobody around to warn me ahead of time. I may hate the way my help was perverted in the end, but I still love the kid who dove in headfirst and tried to make the world a better place. In fact, I love her for the first time.

I still don't wear an Ex-Cultie badge on my day to day, but I finally feel comfortable talking to people about where I was for all those years and why I recommend against anyone else doing the same. :eyeroll:
 

sallydannce

Gold Meritorious Patron
I have become fascinated with my shame. Fascinated in the sense that I had no idea it was as prolific and profound and deep as I now discover it is.

Shedding shame, for me, is an inside job. No amount of reading, no amount of soothing from others (and at times, I have had some of the kindest most beautiful supportive people imaginable in my life), no amount of thinking about it - nothing - seems to have eased my shame.

What has eased my shame is feeling it. Really sitting with it and feeling it. With extreme vulnerability, with every cell screaming "what a dick you were!", with a choir of voices yelling at me "duh! duh! duh! duh!", I mindfully sat with it and observed it. Ghastly! Not my idea of a fun Saturday night!

Every impulse in me was insisting to run and hide from it. Pack it away and shove my head in the sand and forget it. Mask it. Pretend. Fake it. Do. Not. Tell. Anyone. I. Was. In. Scientology. Ignore it and "move on". An attractive option, no doubt about it.

But...

My experience of healing has found me being frank and honest with own emotions. For me, there was no choice. And even that concept found me resentful and afraid. Why can't I just be a lightweight person. Just get involved in life and distract myself into old age? There are a million things I could have done to distract myself from my shame and lived life on the surface. Very alluring stuff.

But...

No!

Deeper and deeper I want into various subjects, various unexplored emotions. I took every component of all I had learned about Hubbard, about his system, about myself and my own history, about everything I could lay my hands on.

All I was left with was my own essence, which I know must sound so, well, full of shit really. lol. But this inside job, this matter of the heart (there is nothing intellectual about much of this), is deeply personal. It is the reason I was able to be scammed. It is the reason I was incapable of honestly observing why, at best, scientology is bizarre and, at worst, pure cruelty.

For me, shame is the glue. It is the hook, the line and the sinker.
 
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Gottabrain

Guest
Contrary to some Christian interpretations of the Biblical Adam and Eve story, we are not actually born with a sense of shame or guilt, though we are born with other instinctual emotions and reactions, for example, fear of heights, recognition of mother.

Shame and guilt are learned societal behaviours. These feelings are actually thrust upon us by others early in life (ages 2-5). These are the ages when we learn self-sufficient behaviour, initiative, judgment, planning and independence. In our attempts at self-sufficiency, we also learn frustration, aggression, assertiveness, self-limits, success and failure in goal achievement, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erikson's_stages_of_psychosocial_development

Many animals learn shame (perhaps guilt as well) from their groups. Many do not. Have you ever tried teaching a puppy not to poo in the house? Anyone who has, knows what I mean - the long face and brooding afterwards, the tail held down when the dog is scolded. :naughty: He feels ashamed, but he doesn't know yet what he did wrong, because he forgets so quickly and doesn't connect the action of pooing in the house with "bad dog". :no: So we show him the poo, try to get him to make the connection. Eventually, if he's somewhat normal and you're a good trainer, he understands. Good doggy!! :thumbsup::clap: Tail wags again - puppy is happy, he did the right thing! :happydance:

Did you know wild animals do this as well? Animal behaviour fascinates me. I've been studying wild parrots almost daily for 8 years now and have this to share from another thread.

Smilla and Gottabrain:

All the stuff about the whales and pigs, yes, I get it.
But the stuff about the pig feeling ashamed??
Really?.........How do you know the pig was not REALLY thinking:
"Is that Chanel No. 5 you are wearing?"

or..."That poor little human, I have so much empathy, I just know she is feeling really envious of me getting to roll around in the mud and eat slops!"

Be brutally honest...take a deep breath....do you really know what little piggy was thinking (about your inverted guilt)?

DB, seriously - yes for parrots. I have no personal close experience with pigs but have read lots of stories of their high intelligence and emotions but can't personally confirm this.

Parrots learn shame (or something very equivalent to it) in their wild flocks. Those that are sick, disabled, different must eat last, are picked on by the other birds and somewhat "fair gamed". This is part of their intrinsic survival as a flock. It eliminates the diseased ones so the others stay healthy, it also eliminates weaker genes and keeps those who are not strong from eating when food is scarce. Those birds who are so segregated do not walk proudly, they are dependent on the others for survival and hold their heads down, try to act invisible in order not to be picked on. Some of the other birds are quite brutal - sneak up on them, peck at them, whatever it takes to show them they are NOT WANTED. It's quite awful to observe but I observe it almost daily and have for years. The weaker birds usually end up losing even the urge to care for their personal grooming. (Normally parrots are quite fastidious about their cleanliness and grooming, like cats.) But not ALL of them! Some of them that might have Beak and Feather disease, for example, are quite clever and seem to have a sense of self-confidence anyway, despite how they are treated.

Wouldn't you call that "shame"...?

In the last few days, I've been trying to put this all together.

Guilt is what one feels after one has done something wrong. Shame, on the other hand, is a lack of self-worth caused by rejection by a group or individual.

Shame is a LEARNED behaviour and it is also in direct opposition to a person or animal's personal survival.

Parrots with beak and feather disease regained a sense of belonging and lose their shame when they are put in a flock of similar birds. Most wild parrots, having never been picked on or excluded from their flock, never demonstrated shame of any kind.

The few disabled birds that do not exhibit shame or guilt behaviours are a fascinating study in themselves. Some have more than one flock or are a bit more cunning or observant than the average parrot. It appears that they have learned to hone their skills in a more individualised way, instilling a sort of self-confidence that they are worthy. They are not picked on nearly as badly as the others, either - the flock mostly treats them as "not really worthy, but not a disability either. Ignore".

The others, well - it is a self-perpetuating cycle. The more shameful they act, the worse they are treated. Their "shame" behaviour gives the others the idea they actually have a reason to be ashamed and acts like a magnet to the bullying ones.

My whole take on it is - Guilt is useful, but shame is personally destructive. Shame is a group mechanism, guilt is a personal mechanism. If you don't believe in yourself yet, start acting like you do, anyway, because it will change the way others treat you and eventually, you WILL believe in yourself.
 
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Boomima

Patron with Honors
Oh, this is kind of heartbreaking. There a guy in Texas and another one in Tarpon Springs who should feel shame and guilt.

You joined a group to make the world a better place. Many of you made a huge personal sacrifice in an attempt to make the world a better place. That's more effort than most people expend.

Many of you now are working to share your experience in an attempt to help other people. Again, that's more effort than a lot of people expend to help strangers. You have nothing to be ashamed of.

Hell, a lot of people would not have been strong enough to say "This is f'd up. I was wrong."
 

Adam7986

Declared SP
Scientology is all about Shame and Guilt.

Just realize that you don't need to live up to anyone's expectations except your own. Scientology tells you who and what you should be, now you can tell yourself. There's no need to be ashamed.

Guilt is an intensely personal thing and we all deal with it differently. If you can't make up for something you've done then you just have to live with it and move on. If you feel like you want to make up for something or that you can somehow, then do the best you can to make things right.
 
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Gottabrain

Guest
Scientology is all about Shame and Guilt.

Just realize that you don't need to live up to anyone's expectations except your own. Scientology tells you who and what you should be, now you can tell yourself. There's no need to be ashamed.

Guilt is an intensely personal thing and we all deal with it differently. If you can't make up for something you've done then you just have to live with it and move on. If you feel like you want to make up for something or that you can somehow, then do the best you can to make things right.

^I like this. Beautifully and succinctly put, Adam. :thumbsup:
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Helping hands will help raise you up. :yes:

And then you have this priceless gift to offer others who are in that place. Now you can help people - for real.

If I knew how to link - I'd put Jewel's "Hands" right here:

'If I could tell the world just one thing, it would be that we are all OK.'

'I won't be made useless, I won't be idle with despair.'

'Someone must stand up for what's right, for where there is a man that has no voice, there I/we shall sing.'

'These hands are small, I know, but they're not yours, they are my own, and I am never broken.'

Kindness matters . . .

Here it is. :coolwink:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFLPwv6b3lI&feature=related
 
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