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The Church of Scientology says it "has no position on sexual orientation." We have questions.

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
The Church of Scientology says it "has no position on sexual orientation." We have questions.

Recently and repeatedly, the Church of Scientology has said "the Church has no position on sexual orientation," and "[t]he Church is on record as being opposed to discrimination of any sort, including on the basis of sexuality." See also here, here, and here.

Journalists may want to ask the Church of Scientology the following specific questions, among others:

1) Does the Church of Scientology perform gay weddings? Is the Church of Scientology willing to perform gay weddings?

2) Does the Church of Scientology support adoption by gay couples?

3) If the Church of Scientology supports adoption by heterosexual individuals, does the Church of Scientology also support adoption by gay individuals?

4) Can a gay person become and remain a member of the Church of Scientology in good standing without being required to be celibate, without being required to eventually become heterosexual, and while continuing to have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements applied to heterosexuals?

5) Can a gay person become and remain Clear in good standing without being required to be celibate, without being required to eventually become heterosexual, and while continuing to have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements applied to heterosexuals?

6) Can a gay person become and remain OT 8 in good standing without being required to be celibate, without being required to eventually become heterosexual, and while continuing to have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements applied to heterosexuals?

7) Can a gay person become and remain a non-Sea Org staff member in good standing without being required to be celibate, without being required to eventually become heterosexual, and while continuing to have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements applied to heterosexuals?

8) Can a gay person become and remain a Sea Org member in good standing without being required to be celibate, without being required to eventually become heterosexual, and while continuing to have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements applied to heterosexuals?

9) Can a gay person become and remain a member of the clergy of the Church of Scientology in good standing without being required to be celibate, without being required to eventually become heterosexual, and while continuing to have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements applied to heterosexuals?

10) Does the Church of Scientology perform, endorse, advocate or accept the validity of any form of gay conversion therapy, or any form of therapy or spiritual practice or technology intended, designed or that has the purpose of changing a gay person's sexual orientation from gay to heterosexual?

/
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Naturally, if forced to answer those questions, the COS (Crimewave of Scientology) will simply lie.

Why not cut to the chase and just ask them the "KEY QUESTION".

DOES THE CHURCH PROMOTE AND ADVOCATE L. RON HUBBARD'S POSITION ON THE
MENTAL ILLNESS, EVIL & DANGER TO SOCIETY POSED BY GAY 1.1 PEOPLE
AS DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK "SCIENCE OF SURIVIVAL"
[sup]1[/sup] THAT
IS ON SALE IN EVERY SCIENTOLOGY BOOKSTORE
ACROSS THE WORLD?




[sup]1[/sup] And more specifically "DMSMH". Both books defame & degrade gay people in hate-mongering and even genocidal respects.
 
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CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
Naturally, if forced to answer those questions, the COS (Crimewave of Scientology) will simply lie.

Why not cut to the chase and just ask them the "KEY QUESTION".

DOES THE CHURCH PROMOTE AND ADVOCATE L. RON HUBBARD'S POSITION ON THE
MENTAL ILLNESS, EVIL & DANGER TO SOCIETY POSED BY GAY 1.1 PEOPLE
AS DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK "SCIENCE OF SURIVIVAL" THAT
IS ON SALE IN EVERY SCIENTOLOGY BOOKSTORE
ACROSS THE WORLD?

It is slightly more complicated than that. And I do mean slightly; I'm not being sarcastic.

As Mike Rinder notes, the book Handbook for Preclears is perhaps the only place where Hubbard specifically states homosexuality is about 1.1 on the Tone Scale. The book Science of Survival does not specifically state that homosexuals are 1.1 on the Tone Scale. SOS instead states "perverts" are 1.1 on the Tone Scale.

Don't get me wrong, it is clear that Hubbard considered homosexuals to be "perverts" and thus at 1.1 on the Tone Scale. As Mike Rinder also notes, in Dianetics, Book 1 in Scientology, Hubbard states:

The sexual pervert (and by this term dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in Dynamic II such as homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism, etc. and all down the catalogue of Ellis and Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill physically. Perversion as an illness has so many manifestations that it must be spread through the entire gamut of classes from (1) to (5) above.​
I always recommend Mike Rinder's essay, Scientology Homophobia.

I also always recommend Nora Crest's YouTube video, Why You Can't Be Gay In Scientology:


Having said all of that, my purpose in creating this thread was not to argue the point, but instead to provide journalists with specific questions to start with.

As noted in the OP, the Church of Scientology now says it "has no position on sexual orientation" and "is on record as being opposed to discrimination of any sort, including on the basis of sexuality." Those statements raise many questions, including those set forth above.

The Church of Scientology's repeated statements that it "has no position on sexual orientation" also presents a more general but perhaps more fundamental question -- i.e., how is that even conceivably possible for a church or a religion? A church or religion either has gay members (who can have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements as straight persons), or it doesn't. A church or religion either performs gay marriages, or it doesn't. A church or religion either supports gay adoption, or it doesn't. A church or religion either has gay clergy, or it doesn't. A church or religion simply can't have "no position" on such issues. For a church of religion to state it "has no position on sexual orientation" appears to be ludicrous, evasive and, to be brutally honest, cowardly.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
It is slightly more complicated than that. And I do mean slightly; I'm not being sarcastic.

As Mike Rinder notes, the book Handbook for Preclears is perhaps the only place where Hubbard specifically states homosexuality is about 1.1 on the Tone Scale. The book Science of Survival does not specifically state that homosexuals are 1.1 on the Tone Scale. SOS instead states "perverts" are 1.1 on the Tone Scale.

Don't get me wrong, it is clear that Hubbard considered homosexuals to be "perverts" and thus at 1.1 on the Tone Scale. As Mike Rinder also notes, in Dianetics, Book 1 in Scientology, Hubbard states:

The sexual pervert (and by this term dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in Dynamic II such as homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism, etc. and all down the catalogue of Ellis and Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill physically. Perversion as an illness has so many manifestations that it must be spread through the entire gamut of classes from (1) to (5) above.
I always recommend Mike Rinder's essay, Scientology Homophobia.

I also always recommend Nora Crest's YouTube video, Why You Can't Be Gay In Scientology:


Having said all of that, my purpose in creating this thread was not to argue the point, but instead to provide journalists with specific questions to start with.

As noted in the OP, the Church of Scientology now says it "has no position on sexual orientation" and "is on record as being opposed to discrimination of any sort, including on the basis of sexuality." Those statements raise many questions, including those set forth above.

The Church of Scientology's repeated statements that it "has no position on sexual orientation" also presents a more general but perhaps more fundamental question -- i.e., how is that even conceivably possible for a church or a religion? A church or religion either has gay members (who can have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements as straight persons), or it doesn't. A church or religion either performs gay marriages, or it doesn't. A church or religion either supports gay adoption, or it doesn't. A church or religion either has gay clergy, or it doesn't. A church or religion simply can't have "no position" on such issues. For a church of religion to state it "has no position on sexual orientation" appears to be ludicrous, evasive and, to be brutally honest, cowardly.
Right you are! DMSMH was the right reference, not SOS.

SOS was much kinder to gays and other 1.1s. In a courageous humanitarian way, it did not allow them to suffer in isolation amongst high toned people and mandated herding them up and shipping them to remote areas where their evil perversions could not bring down the society. But, it not torture them, it simply "disposed of them without sorry".

Murdering SPs like gays, Paulette Cooper and people who squirrel scientology---it's the right thing to do. Ron did it for mankind------and the children. Have a heart, think of the kids---send in your donations!
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
. . .
Rex Fowler . . . case in point, lest they have forgotten.

Failed "gay handling" over time that ended in a terrible tragedy for two families.

From what I've read and heard, Rex Fowler got pulled off of solo OT7 and subjected
to 22 to 27 intensives (unclear) of sec checking because he wanted to build and develop
a blog, a website where gay OTs could meet and socialize. I think OSA nipped that one
in the bud.

The money he stole from his company was for an IAS donation to make up the damage
done by his misstep. Many more details about the story on other dedicated threads. Goes
way back to the 70's, when he first got into Scientology and joined staff in Denver.

That's the long story short.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
. . .
Rex Fowler . . . case in point, lest they have forgotten.

Failed "gay handling" over time that ended in a terrible tragedy for two families.

From what I've read and heard, Rex Fowler got pulled off of solo OT7 and subjected
to 22 to 27 intensives (unclear) of sec checking because he wanted to build and develop
a blog, a website where gay OTs could meet and socialize. I think OSA nipped that one
in the bud.

The money he stole from his company was for an IAS donation to make up the damage
done by his misstep. Many more details about the story on other dedicated threads. Goes
way back to the 70's, when he first got into Scientology and joined staff in Denver.

That's the long story short.


The COS is not entirely without spiritual values. They sent a SCIENTOLOGY MINISTER into the prison to worship with Rex. They mostly prayed that Rex would rapidly cover a recent $50,000 NSF check he wrote to the IAS (the day before he murdered someone)---so that he Rex would not be declared for "Financial Irreularities", be Declared and lost his eternity.

The minister, speaking on behalf of the church, benevolently "turned the other cheek" and gave forgivingness to Rex for his sin, even beneficently waiving the customary $39.00 fee that they normally charge parishioners for overdrafts.
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
This might be a good time to bring up the Joburg Security Check:

https://tonyortega.org/2013/08/27/the-dreaded-joburg-sec-check-scientology-interrogations-explained/

(snipped)

THE BUNKER: Let’s take a look at some sample questions from the Joburg.
6. Have you ever blackmailed anybody?
16. Have you ever told lies in Court?
20. Have you ever peddled Dope?
23. Have you ever raped anyone?
24. Have you ever been involved in an abortion?
27. Have you ever practised Homosexuality?
28. Have you ever had intercourse with a member of your family?
32. Have you ever slept with a member of a race of another colour?
37. Have you ever done any illicit Diamond buying?
38. Have you ever betrayed anyone for money?
43. Have you ever been a spy for an Organization?
44. Have you ever had anything to do with Communism or been a Communist?
45. Have you ever been a newspaper reporter?
46. Have you ever had intercourse while under the influence of drugs?
52. Have you ever had anything to do with a baby farm?
53. Have you ever been a spy for the Police?
57. Have you ever done anything your Mother would be ashamed to find out?
78. Do you feel Communism has some good points?
81. Do you know any Communist personally?
82. Have you ever injured Dianetics or Scientology?
86. Have you ever had unkind thoughts about LRH?
88. Have you ever had any unkind thoughts about Mary Sue?
94. Have you ever used Dianetics or Scientology to force sex upon someone?
95. Do you know of any plans to injure a Scientology Organization?
96. Are you upset about this Security Check?

(snipped)
 

ThetanExterior

Gold Meritorious Patron
What is the stance of the CoS on transgendered people?
Scientology is based on the writings of L. Ron Hubbard. I don't think he said anything specific about this subject because it wasn't such a public issue as it is now. Therefore they have nothing to base a stance on other than his writings about homosexuals and those have been well documented.
 

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
As a result of the Independent Reformed Church of Scientology at least partly addressing the issue of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, I decided to revisit my questionnaire. In version 2.0 I revised question number 10 to (perhaps awkwardly) include a double negative. I did this so that the Church of Scientology International (or an Independent Scientology organization, omitting the Sea Org questions) will pass if and only if all of the questions are answered "yes." I believe that overall the questionnaire is less confusing that way, and less likely cause question number 10 to be answered inaccurately.

Please let me know what you think.

*************************************************

Journalists may want to ask the Church of Scientology the following specific questions, among others:

1) Does the Church of Scientology perform gay weddings? Is the Church of Scientology willing to perform gay weddings?

2) Does the Church of Scientology support adoption by gay couples?

3) If the Church of Scientology supports adoption by heterosexual individuals, does the Church of Scientology also support adoption by gay individuals?
4) Can a gay person become and remain a member of the Church of Scientology in good standing without being required to be celibate, without being required to eventually become heterosexual, and while continuing to have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements applied to heterosexuals?

5) Can a gay person become and remain Clear in good standing without being required to be celibate, without being required to eventually become heterosexual, and while continuing to have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements applied to heterosexuals?

6) Can a gay person become and remain OT 8 in good standing without being required to be celibate, without being required to eventually become heterosexual, and while continuing to have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements applied to heterosexuals?

7) Can a gay person become and remain a non-Sea Org staff member in good standing without being required to be celibate, without being required to eventually become heterosexual, and while continuing to have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements applied to heterosexuals?

8) Can a gay person become and remain a Sea Org member in good standing without being required to be celibate, without being required to eventually become heterosexual, and while continuing to have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements applied to heterosexuals?

9) Can a gay person become and remain a member of the clergy of the Church of Scientology in good standing without being required to be celibate, without being required to eventually become heterosexual, and while continuing to have gay sex subject only to the same ethical requirements applied to heterosexuals?

10) Is it TRUE that the Church of Scientology does NOT perform, endorse, advocate or accept the validity of any form of gay conversion therapy, or any form of therapy or spiritual practice or technology intended, designed or that has the purpose of changing a gay person's sexual orientation from gay to heterosexual?

Ver. 2.0
 
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