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Addiction to Scientology

BardoThodol

Silver Meritorious Patron
...
I'll go walking in circles
While doubting the very ground beneath me
Trying to show unquestioning faith in everything
...

David Sylvian/Ryuichi Sakamoto
Forbidden Colours

While talking about Christianity, this song has relevance to all who get out only to find comfort back in.

Anamog,

I remember watching the Bowie movie which had this magnificent song. So haunting. Really a beautiful work of art.

We were debating the meanings of the song. The "forbidden colors." The Japanese camp commander, hating Bowie and loving him simultaneously. All those suppressed feelings which exploded in violence.

Because none of us were Christians, we never quite grasped the significance of Sylvian's references to Jesus. We weren't sure if He was a symbol for something else, just as "forbidden colors" was a symbol for something else, or if the meanings were actually rooted in Christianity.

I'd love to hear what you meant. It's an unanswered question I've had for over twenty (?) years.

Michael
 
Did he include the "you must know more than I do so I'll let you think for me" syndrome?

Or the "higher calling justifies any crime" syndrome?

Too many books dealing with mysticism and spirituality are just plain difficult to read. Turgid and confusing. The author is dealing with experience for which little language exists, and which if you can experience, you don't need language. The Tao did ok with it.

not per se but those malformations are addressed.

deropp is never turgid. the master game is phenomenal for it's combination of content and readability
 

BardoThodol

Silver Meritorious Patron
not per se but those malformations are addressed.

deropp is never turgid. the master game is phenomenal for it's combination of content and readability

COMMANDER,

Your recommendation must have stirred some interest. I just got an e-mail canceling my order for a very good $3 hardback copy as it was no longer available. Yesterday there several in the $3 range. Today, $8 is the cheapest. Since I refuse to pay more than $10 for a book unless the author gets royalties, I guess I'll just have to keep an eye out.

Just like I'm keeping an eye out for so many books, like Science and Sanity. Haven't read that one since '69 or so.
 

Caliwog

Patron Meritorious
Suggest neither denotes or connotes certainty.

No, but it connotes probability. And if there is probability that the things around us were designed, given the criteria that leads to the suggestion of a designer, then there must be probability that the designer was designed. And so on.

The way I see it, the probability of a designer's designer, and a designer's designer's designer, and so on, ad infinitum, is pretty low. The world we see around us is just too flawed.

Therefore, to me, the world around us actually suggests that there is NOT a designer.

But applying your model (of creators creating creators ad infinitum), what caused the cause that caused the cause (ad infinitum) that became the Big Bang?

Something quite small setting something sightly bigger into motion. Infinitesimally small things in inconceivably big numbers, adding up to something very big.

Our brains don't process big numbers. They have not yet evolved to do that. They have evolved and developed to conceive a relatively small area in a world that comes towards us no faster than the 15 MPH or so that we can run, and that lasts about 75 years, give or take. We try to get the idea of infinite time and billions of changes over billions of years, and our brains go TILT, and we imagine God.

At some point in both science and religion, you just have to shrug and accept that some things just are, existing without a precedent.

I don't have to do anything of the sort. In science, you accept that some things seem to just be because we haven't figured out the cause. But that doesn't mean there isn't one, or that the cause is an immortal guy who lives in the sky and demands your death if you talk back to your mother or bugger another man.

So the patterns of life to me suggest a designer, a creator, that needs no precedent.

Well, by your rejection of a creator's creator, I'd say they don't suggest that at all. But a creator/designer is a good cop out. You seem fond of intellectualizing the most minor things, so it doesn't surprise me that when you come to something that does not stand up to intellectualization (if that's a word), you say "You just have to shrug and accept that some things just are."

O love Darwin. He contributed so much to our thinking. ... Even Fox news slams Darwin's work. "Fair and balanced." Got to keep those advertising dollars flowing...Creationism has many flavors. Abrahamic religions, such as Christianity, emphasize a single creator. ... Oh yeah, faster than light. Faster than time. All knowing. All powerful. ...Mild to wild mufflers. Vrooom. Vrooom.

Four paragraphs saying nothing at all. Hubbard would be proud! :)

The theory of evolution needn't gainsay creationism.

Yes, it does. Inherently.

Perhaps the creator or creators are evolving in sophistication, starting out with very primitive ideas, applying those, sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing, always learning, always building a storehouse of technique and possibility.

Then the creator or creators are fucking incompetent. Sorry, but I don't see how a being that is smart enough to create an entire interacting ecosystem could have made so many dumb-ass mistakes. The appendix? Eyes with a 50% defect rate that rises to nearly 100% within 50 years? The sheer numbers of diseases to which the human being is susceptible? To me, these things do not point to an intelligent designer. They point to a series of unintelligent processes that are constantly branching off, and some branches thrive and some die.

Then look at how many different molecules can be fashioned from just that small number of distinct atoms.

Look at how many different types of buildings can be designed from one type of brick and one type of window. Your point?

Perhaps the creator (creators) actually did begin with one-celled creatures that were extremely crude.

And just let them evolve? Then they aren't creators, they are supervisors. And they aren't even doing that job very well.

I don't know.

I think you do. You just don't want to connect the dots. :)

Because both "glib" and "flunk" serve as trigger words in baiting Scientologists, the use of both in one sentence suggest a certain intent.

Nah. This is the one of the few places where I can speak Scientologese and be understood.

Of course, you walk out to the patio and find it splattered with blood. The presence of blood suggests horrifying events.

Or a nosebleed. Or food preparation. Or childbirth. Someone shaving, perhaps. Maybe there was a blood drive on my patio. Maybe a Red Cross helicopter was flying overhead and needed to shed some weight.

Turns out the kids were experimenting with recipes for fake blood.

Then I didn't find my patio splattered with blood, did I?

In Scientology, "glib" is a condemnation. ... In my circles, "glib" is a compliment. We place a premium on quick, facile wit.

And here I thought you were just spouting vacuous bullshit. My bad.

Thanks for the inspiration, Cali.

You're welcome.
 
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Gadfly

Crusader
Repulsive? Seriously? I'm disappointed in you, Al.

"Repulsion" is largely an automatic uncontrolled emotional REACTION of disgust.

When I looked at the picture I felt "nothing" - neither good nor bad. Nada. No response. Just a photo.

Reactions to a stimulus often say MORE about the person doing the reacting than about the stimulus. For example, as with "Rorschach Inkblot Tests".
 

Stat

Gold Meritorious Patron
"The Cats Are All Right" :)

gaycat.jpg
[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]
 

BardoThodol

Silver Meritorious Patron
No, but it connotes probability. And if there is probability that the things around us were designed, given the criteria that leads to the suggestion of a designer, then there must be probability that the designer was designed. And so on.

The way I see it, the probability of a designer's designer, and a designer's designer's designer, and so on, ad infinitum, is pretty low. The world we see around us is just too flawed.

Therefore, to me, the world around us actually suggests that there is NOT a designer.



Something quite small setting something sightly bigger into motion. Infinitesimally small things in inconceivably big numbers, adding up to something very big.

Our brains don't process big numbers. They have not yet evolved to do that. They have evolved and developed to conceive a relatively small area in a world that comes towards us no faster than the 15 MPH or so that we can run, and that lasts about 75 years, give or take. We try to get the idea of infinite time and billions of changes over billions of years, and our brains go TILT, and we imagine God.



I don't have to do anything of the sort. In science, you accept that some things seem to just be because we haven't figured out the cause. But that doesn't mean there isn't one, or that the cause is an immortal guy who lives in the sky and demands your death if you talk back to your mother or bugger another man.



Well, by your rejection of a creator's creator, I'd say they don't suggest that at all. But a creator/designer is a good cop out. You seem fond of intellectualizing the most minor things, so it doesn't surprise me that when you come to something that does not stand up to intellectualization (if that's a word), you say "You just have to shrug and accept that some things just are."



Four paragraphs saying nothing at all. Hubbard would be proud! :)



Yes, it does. Inherently.



Then the creator or creators are fucking incompetent. Sorry, but I don't see how a being that is smart enough to create an entire interacting ecosystem could have made so many dumb-ass mistakes. The appendix? Eyes with a 50% defect rate that rises to nearly 100% within 50 years? The sheer numbers of diseases to which the human being is susceptible? To me, these things do not point to an intelligent designer. They point to a series of unintelligent processes that are constantly branching off, and some branches thrive and some die.



Look at how many different types of buildings can be designed from one type of brick and one type of window. Your point?



And just let them evolve? Then they aren't creators, they are supervisors. And they aren't even doing that job very well.



I think you do. You just don't want to connect the dots. :)



Nah. This is the one of the few places where I can speak Scientologese and be understood.



Or a nosebleed. Or food preparation. Or childbirth. Someone shaving, perhaps. Maybe there was a blood drive on my patio. Maybe a Red Cross helicopter was flying overhead and needed to shed some weight.



Then I didn't find my patio splattered with blood, did I?



And here I thought you were just spouting vacuous bullshit. My bad.



You're welcome.

CALI,

Cogent. As one would expect.

I actually was just spouting vacuous bullshit. Hope is always an illusion, a bit of vacuous bullshit. Like buying a lottery ticket. Makes you feel good.

My beliefs make me feel good. My opiate. Makes life tolerable for a man with diminished capacity in logic. A simple man who sometimes just feels and enjoys.

I wish I had your certainty. I could cast hope aside, become drug free (opiate free) and await my end with noble chin held high. But, ultimately, I'm a coward. I want life to have meaning beyond self. I want to believe in a higher power than myself.

Considering my many imperfections, I would have to agree that such a creator has been incompetent. Seriously incompetent. I can hardly form a sentence, much less a cogent one.

Have you read Richard Dawkins? Very fine works about God and evolution. Memes as viruses. About how authoritarian child rearing sets a mental pattern that predisposes one to accepting religious authority.

Would be interested in exactly what you believe. What you perceive with your awareness. How your awareness interacts with this world, as experienced by you. Not as referenced by authors and authorities, but what you actually see and feel about how you came into existence.

How you perceive the world isn't something I feel I need to contest; I'm just curious.
 

BardoThodol

Silver Meritorious Patron
Repulsive? Seriously? I'm disappointed in you, Al.

Cali,

If you are disappointed in me, your expectations are too high. I'm just your average slob stumbling through life.

I actually was not repulsed, but I "imagined" (rightly or wrongly) that the intent was invidious. If you show that picture to a cross section of the population, some version of "repulsive" as a response will predominate. Take it to the local mall and test this notion. Or to a local church. Or the VFW.

So, why show it here?

Emily used to get similar stuff thrown her way periodically. Someone would slip a potentially offensive photograph into her work/study/living space.

All so innocent. No harm intended. Just good fun. Why are all you queers being so sensitive?

She just posted them on the nearest bulletin board.

All the pretense of good intent and the justifications for hatred. A meme that dominates the CofS.
 

BardoThodol

Silver Meritorious Patron
COMMENT #319 OF THIS THREAD.

Just figured I'd see if I could push this thread to ten thousand views. Just for grins. Looks like that is gonna happen soon enough.

Cali's response to my earlier post has gotten grins. From people who believe in a higher power. The comparison between what was said versus the analysis. Chiaroscuro.

Kudos to all you of positive mind and souls. Keep on trucking. Didn't mean to attract so much negativity. Interesting comments.

Thanks for all the recommendations of good reads.

Et tu Brute?
 
COMMENT #319 OF THIS THREAD.

Just figured I'd see if I could push this thread to ten thousand views. Just for grins. Looks like that is gonna happen soon enough.

Cali's response to my earlier post has gotten grins. From people who believe in a higher power. The comparison between what was said versus the analysis. Chiaroscuro.

Kudos to all you of positive mind and souls. Keep on trucking. Didn't mean to attract so much negativity. Interesting comments.

Thanks for all the recommendations of good reads.

Et tu Brute?

still addicted to stat pressure
 

Caliwog

Patron Meritorious
I wish I had your certainty. I could cast hope aside, become drug free (opiate free) and await my end with noble chin held high. But, ultimately, I'm a coward. I want life to have meaning beyond self.

I don't have certainty; I simply observe. But I fail to see how the fact that this life may be our only life implies a lack of meaning.

I want to believe in a higher power than myself.

I want a pet that eats dust mice and shits pellets of solid gold. I fear we both may be disappointed.

Have you read Richard Dawkins?

Of course. Does it show?

Would be interested in exactly what you believe...what you actually see and feel about how you came into existence.

Well, it all started with my mother and my father and a bottle of wine...

As for humankind, I think we are just one of an inevitable result of an effectively infinite number of small changes made over an infinite amount of time.
 

Caliwog

Patron Meritorious
If you are disappointed in me, your expectations are too high. I'm just your average slob stumbling through life.

Sounds to me like you're just an average homophobe. You portray yourself as a thoughtful person, but near as I can tell, you like the process and yet rarely come to a meaningful conclusion.

I actually was not repulsed

That's funny, because you said you were repulsed.

If you show that picture to a cross section of the population, some version of "repulsive" as a response will predominate. Take it to the local mall and test this notion.

I live in California. They'll love it at my local mall.
 
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