kate8024
-deleted-
Oh it's absolutely one of the purposes and maybe even its primary purpose, but in practice it's far from its sole purpose.
Ask Kate your questions here...
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Oh it's absolutely one of the purposes and maybe even its primary purpose, but in practice it's far from its sole purpose.
Helena Handbasket
Gold Meritorious Patron
So for Kate it is an academic intellectual pursuit. So what? She's a student academically studying Scientology. How this will become useful in the future remains to be seen -- I think it will take us places we can't imagine today.
You go, girl.
Helena
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
I really don't recommend that anyone stay in CofS, ever. That being said, it's the way I feel about certain political factions and some of the elder established religions. But, in the long run, it's that person's own decision.
Here are some of the reasons for not being in CofS, that I've encountered. I agree with every single one of them:
Giving support in the form of money and/or labor or even encouragement to a criminal organization. It's like if you knew that a really great pizzeria was a front for an organized crime syndicate that enslaved women, got kids hooked on drugs, murdered, etc. No matter how good the 'za is, it's time to find another place to buy it from.
It's risky. Even when you keep it light, CofS has a way of breaking through and upping the ante and interfering in your personal life. I know this cuz J and I were keeping it light for quite some time. But stuff changed, we were no longer under the radar and the cult managed to recommence interference in our lives. You know how they often talk about "entheta" and "counter intention"? Well, attracting CofS' attention inevitably leads to such. They're the ones who are entheta and who counter intend against your survival. Always.
There are some problematic ideas in it. Not just the obvious ones like RPFing people and disconnection. There are some subtler ones than that which are probably not all that obvious. Being exposed to them causes problems for a person down the line, IMO.
The cult is untrustworthy. Moreover, it causes very nice people to morally compromise themselves and to betray friends and family. Again, it's a risk factor type thing.
I wouldn't call your desire to stay part of CofS for now as unempathetic, Kate. Then again, I don't know you for real- just what you post. I would say, more, that from what I can see, that it's more like you're taking some risks there.
I hope I give no offense in posting this. However, for me, (as it usually is), I can see both sides. Well, I think I can, anyway. I think I see where you're coming from, Kate. It's similar, perhaps, to my situation from some years back. But I definitely see where some others are coming from. I wasn't kidding when I said it was more like they are talking at you than to you. I do think so. However, their underlying opinions have some merit. So I was hoping to try to take an approach reflecting and hopefully uniting more than one point of view here.
Here are some of the reasons for not being in CofS, that I've encountered. I agree with every single one of them:
Giving support in the form of money and/or labor or even encouragement to a criminal organization. It's like if you knew that a really great pizzeria was a front for an organized crime syndicate that enslaved women, got kids hooked on drugs, murdered, etc. No matter how good the 'za is, it's time to find another place to buy it from.
It's risky. Even when you keep it light, CofS has a way of breaking through and upping the ante and interfering in your personal life. I know this cuz J and I were keeping it light for quite some time. But stuff changed, we were no longer under the radar and the cult managed to recommence interference in our lives. You know how they often talk about "entheta" and "counter intention"? Well, attracting CofS' attention inevitably leads to such. They're the ones who are entheta and who counter intend against your survival. Always.
There are some problematic ideas in it. Not just the obvious ones like RPFing people and disconnection. There are some subtler ones than that which are probably not all that obvious. Being exposed to them causes problems for a person down the line, IMO.
The cult is untrustworthy. Moreover, it causes very nice people to morally compromise themselves and to betray friends and family. Again, it's a risk factor type thing.
I wouldn't call your desire to stay part of CofS for now as unempathetic, Kate. Then again, I don't know you for real- just what you post. I would say, more, that from what I can see, that it's more like you're taking some risks there.
I hope I give no offense in posting this. However, for me, (as it usually is), I can see both sides. Well, I think I can, anyway. I think I see where you're coming from, Kate. It's similar, perhaps, to my situation from some years back. But I definitely see where some others are coming from. I wasn't kidding when I said it was more like they are talking at you than to you. I do think so. However, their underlying opinions have some merit. So I was hoping to try to take an approach reflecting and hopefully uniting more than one point of view here.
freethinker
Sponsor
I never questioned whether you contribute to the world but I do wonder why you are here seeing as how you are more interested in Scientology unless, as part of your academia, you need to study the effects of Scientology; what people became like after they did the processes and courses the Scientology way rather than freelance.
I definitely get the sense that you like it here and I would bet it is because we are more of a chalenge than most meaning you have to have challenges when you are so smart.
So, what do you find is the primary difference between a Scientologist who believes the tech and one who figured it out and left the tech behind as a bad experience though a learning one?
I definitely get the sense that you like it here and I would bet it is because we are more of a chalenge than most meaning you have to have challenges when you are so smart.
So, what do you find is the primary difference between a Scientologist who believes the tech and one who figured it out and left the tech behind as a bad experience though a learning one?
Free Being Me
Crusader
The lack of compassionate empathy for Ex's that have been through the cult and those still in is astonishing.
How deliciously magnificently achieved, avoid an answer by replying to another post.
You're absolutely correct, Helena. I'm seeing the error of my ways. How could I be so foolish as to inject some common humanity contrasting why the cult is evil. Here's a great idea, let's tell the families who have lost loved ones it's all "academic."
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lotus
stubborn rebel sheep!
Thanks for telling Freebeing!
However it's like: '' hello hello Earth call Moon ????? ''' ....:confused2:
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Free Being Me
Crusader
kate8024
-deleted-
Well, I'm here because my interest in Scientology is multi-faceted and extends beyond learning what LRH claims to be true. I'm interested in what Scientology can and can't do for me, but certainly I also have some interest in how involvement in such movements affects people in the long term for the better and for the worse. This isn't an explicit part of my academic interest, but it's not uninteresting from a psychological and sociological perspective. Within the realm of psychology of religion I'm interested in potential similarities between what you might call early-adopters of recently founded religions such as Mormonism or Scientology and the initial converts to the more established religions like Christianity or Islam.
I do like it here for a number of reasons. Many of the posters are brilliant and have excellent senses of humor and extremely well hashed-out opinions which can make for good conversation. Some of the conversations can be challenging, but sometimes challenging conversations can be the most fruitful for both parties. I wouldn't say I'm 'so smart', not any more than the majority of the posters here.
Hmmm... good question. I think that the biggest difference that comes immediately to mind is thinking of life in terms of 'the tech'. Where many Scientologists who believes in the tech seem to think of thing in terms of 'wins' and 'having reality on' something, those who have left often seem to largely or completely return to thinking about things in terms of 'good experiences' or 'understanding' or 'believing in' something and I believe that the differences here go beyond just the vocabulary used, especially since there really isn't a 1:1 mapping between much of Scientologese and normal English. If someone has some input on this observation (or find that there is some other difference that is more prominent) I'd certainly be interested in hearing about it.
MissWog
Silver Meritorious Patron
Yeah DuH! If staff or Sea Orgers are unhappy they should just quit!
I'm sorry..I guess I'm just not intellectual enough..I don't know how to talk with somone around that sentiment. If anything I think we were the ones talked at. --meh
Luckily Kate does not represent true academia or intellectuals..if she did I would be unimpressed.. Folks truly trying to understand concepts and systems don't callously dismiss the biggest parts that make the biggest impacts.
So for all you out there with family in the Sea Org..just tell them to quit!
Whatever...I'm going back to my academic studies on #StaffLife now...I'll start publishing my findings tomorrow.
I'm sorry..I guess I'm just not intellectual enough..I don't know how to talk with somone around that sentiment. If anything I think we were the ones talked at. --meh
Luckily Kate does not represent true academia or intellectuals..if she did I would be unimpressed.. Folks truly trying to understand concepts and systems don't callously dismiss the biggest parts that make the biggest impacts.
So for all you out there with family in the Sea Org..just tell them to quit!
Whatever...I'm going back to my academic studies on #StaffLife now...I'll start publishing my findings tomorrow.
freethinker
Sponsor
Watch out Kate, some here will start to believe you have a soft side.
Scientologists, Indies and Exes will not be able to be objective in these matters because they have taken a position on the subject.
Exes and Indies have an advantage over Scientologists because they have been both; know both sides of the coin. It is probably the reason most exes have trouble understanding why those who are still Scientologists can't see how flawed Scientology is.
Scientologists, Indies and Exes will not be able to be objective in these matters because they have taken a position on the subject.
Exes and Indies have an advantage over Scientologists because they have been both; know both sides of the coin. It is probably the reason most exes have trouble understanding why those who are still Scientologists can't see how flawed Scientology is.
kate8024
-deleted-
As i've stated many times before, I don't believe telling someone to quit to be effective and can often have the opposite effect. Instead I recommend following the advice given at http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/16.htm which asks Scientologists to critically evaluate the things they see going on around them - which is exactly what I advocate and exactly what I do in almost every conversation I have with Scientologists.
lotus
stubborn rebel sheep!
I would like to also say I am as smart as the majority of the posters (but people would laugh
)so I remain in the less smarter category (idiots) which is perfet fine with me as it doesn't require to maintain an identity
of ''smart one'' - in true life or virtual life.
I wish the others guinea pigs, form the lower strata (less smart) are not too much hurt
and that the strata of the ''smarter ones'' as you are, feel very much comforted in self-esteem
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kate8024
-deleted-
I would like to also say I am as smart as the majority of the posters (but people would laugh
so I remain in the less smarter category (idiots) which is perfet fine with me as it doesn't require to maintain an identity
of ''smart one'' - in true life or virtual life.
I wish the others guinea pigs, form the lower strata (less smart) are not too much hurt
and that the strate of the ''smarter ones'' as you are, feel very much comforted in self-esteem
I'm pretty sure, based on your posts, that you are smarter than me so if you are in the less smart category then I'm really in trouble.
To be fair, though, I don't really spend too much time thinking about who is smarter than who. I believe everyone is smart but not everyone is smart about the same topics. I've fussed at my nephew on several occasions for making fun of people he believes to be dumb and pointed out that there are topics that they know much more about than he does. I question the whole idea that some people have higher levels of general intelligence than others.
lotus
stubborn rebel sheep!
General intelligence doesn't mean anything!
There is many forms of intelligence, one very important of them is the emotional intelligence.
It can't be measured as it depends very much on the culture.
The most intelligent people I've known, in their abilities to live a happy life without unecessary suffering or struggling, are the people with a slight lower IQ - they live in present time and not in their head with the running hamsters.
Their main concern is often to not be rejected or considered as ''lower grade people''
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Free Being Me
Crusader
MissWog! What are suggesting? That $cientologists can't leave? Are you sure about that? Why would that be, I wonder? Surely an Academic would ask a question of that nature. Or why a meal of rice and beans after a day of running around a tree in the desert is "rehabilitation." Perhaps an Academic would want to know why there are forced abortions in $cientology. Possibly asking about chain lockering children.
Just maybe an Academic would ask why Paulette Cooper was Fair Gamed, Dead Agented, set up for a felony to destabilize her hoping she would suicide, orchestrated by Elcon which couldn't be proven until Operation Snow White was exposed. Being curious an Academic would want to know about The Hole. Or who Steve Hassan is, providing cult recovery therapy as well as 3 very successful books about cult recovery/deprogramming.
The questions are endless for an Academic to pursue. But since I'm sure I'm misreading your post and none of what I wrote is possible, no Academic would be interested.
kate8024
-deleted-
MissWog! What are suggesting? That $cientologists can't leave? Are you sure about that? Why would that be, I wonder? Surely an Academic would ask a question of that nature. Or why a meal of rice and beans after a day of running around a tree in the desert is "rehabilitation." Perhaps an Academic would want to know why there are forced abortions in $cientology. Possibly asking about chain lockering children.
Just maybe an Academic would ask why Paulette Cooper was Fair Gamed, Dead Agented, set up for a felony to destabilize her hoping she would suicide, orchestrated by Elcon which couldn't be proven until Operation Snow White was exposed. Being curious an Academic would want to know about The Hole. Or who Steve Hassan is, providing cult recovery therapy as well as 3 very successful books about cult recovery/deprogramming.
The questions are endless for an Academic to pursue. But since I'm sure I'm misreading your post and none of what I wrote is possible, no Academic would be interested.
Attempting to paint my interest in Scientology as solely academic would be a mischaracterization and oversimplification. I'm familiar with all of the things you have mentioned, probably to a much greater degree than you are willing to give me credit for. I've pursued all of these questions already, which is why they are not questions that I'm currently pursuing.
lotus
stubborn rebel sheep!
I am certain an academic is interested in knowing all about the hole as is is very much interesting why people endure
so much and don't escape.
I believe the best way to answer all the question is to enroll, for academic purposes. Enroll in the int base SO.
Then, it's easy to collect any data form first hand observations and record.
I would contribute for such academic project.
so much and don't escape.
I believe the best way to answer all the question is to enroll, for academic purposes. Enroll in the int base SO.
Then, it's easy to collect any data form first hand observations and record.
I would contribute for such academic project.
DagwoodGum
Squirreling Dervish
Absolutely! This is a fairly broad question but I'll try to answer it the best that I can.
My actual views on metaphysics go (IMHO) quite a bit beyond Scientology and I personally view time and all experiences as highly episodic and much of my philosophy regarding this has strong ties to Schema Theory with a good smattering of crazy hypothesis based on personal mystical experiences. Having said that, within this 'type' of what I call a 'scenario' there is an apparency of the following items based on mystical experiences and logical extrapolation from those experiences:
* In general, to me Scientology is a mystical religious framework. Dianetics, "clear", "ot", etc. are to me more or less meaningless or useless concepts.
* something resembling cartesian dualism, though I view it in a bit more of a Platonic light with multiple levels of existence once you get completely beyond the physical reality
* reincarnation
* existence as a true static, but with temporal emanations into this (and other) universe(s)
* completely bizarre other universes
* the general concept of the 'full track'
* creation by postulate
* pre-each-life postulates that guide certain aspects of that life (ie similar to between-lives implants though less sinister in tone)
* that its possible to remember things from other lives
* the overall ideas of the 8-dynamics, the ARC triangle, the overt-motivator sequence, start-change-stop, though I'm sure there are some minor differences in my views on these
* that _something_ genocide-like happened on the whole track which LRH interpreted as the Xenu myth but I don't believe his interpretation to be quite correct.
* I believe that doing the lists in Self Analysis can be immensely helpful even if just used to get better at this-life recall of events and nothing else
* I believe that doing the processes in COHB can be very useful
* I believe the clear cognition to be sort of like a Zen koan
I also maintain a purely psychological-physicalist perspective in which I view all of these thing to be functions of the subconscious and the imagination but either way of viewing it generally works well for me as I find the associated phenomena fascinating either way.
Hope that explains it a bit, if I didn't answer your question please let me know what I can clarify.
OK I get it now, you clearly are too brilliant to ever get stuffed in a box, Scientology or otherwise. So you may overlap into areas of thought that Scientologists also occupy, but you couldn't be a Scientologist because you can't stay in their box. All of which I can relate to whole heartedly. Now I get you whereas I couldn't quite before. You kind of remind me of a woman that went be Smilla who used to post here, she was quite brilliant and a bit all over the place with her knowledge, experience and ideas too, though very stable and couldn't be knocked off her perspectives by dissenters or bashers. A good person to be similar to...
kate8024
-deleted-
Well someone interested in academically studying examples of semi-forced penance in religious orders, or specifically in abuses within Sea Org, would almost certainly be interested in knowing all about the hole. It's much more likely that such an academic would rely on stories of those who have been through this type of situation rather than trying to put themselves in such a situation as gaining first hand experience of the hole is not exactly an easy task. First hand experience can be invaluable for researchers into topics like this, but it's not always feasible.
Free Being Me
Crusader
MissWog! What are suggesting? That $cientologists can't leave? Are you sure about that? Why would that be, I wonder? Surely an Academic would ask a question of that nature. Or why a meal of rice and beans after a day of running around a tree in the desert is "rehabilitation." Perhaps an Academic would want to know why there are forced abortions in $cientology. Possibly asking about chain lockering children.
Just maybe an Academic would ask why Paulette Cooper was Fair Gamed, Dead Agented, set up for a felony to destabilize her hoping she would suicide, orchestrated by Elcon which couldn't be proven until Operation Snow White was exposed. Being curious an Academic would want to know about The Hole. Or who Steve Hassan is, providing cult recovery therapy as well as 3 very successful books about cult recovery/deprogramming.
The questions are endless for an Academic to pursue. But since I'm sure I'm misreading your post and none of what I wrote is possible, no Academic would be interested.
Really? From these supposed questions asked, you still call the cult a religion, don't particularly care either way if others wish to leave the Cof$, give $cientology your money even when aware of their criminal acts, mention a Cof$ reform repeatedly (that's some impartial Academia) and demonstrate no real compassion for the men, women, and children brutalized by the cult. I call BS.
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