Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview)

[Type4_PTS]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

Now, as far as CofS Scn goes, another reason the two aren't compatible there, at least, is what the CofS/IRS agreement says. There's some part in there where they say something to the effect of, ok, for now they can keep their other religion but eventually we expect them to just be Scn'ists. (paraphrased by me. this is not the exact wording.)

I suspect that this would bother some members if they knew about this.

Here's the exact wording. (emphasis added):

The following is from "The Church of Spiritual Technology's Explanation to the IRS As To Why It Qualifies As a "Church" Described in Section 170(b)(1)(A)(i)." It was reprinted in the December 1993 (Vol. 8, No. 6) issue of The Exempt Organization Tax Review, a publication of Tax Analysts, Inc.

The magazine gives as its source "Response to Final Series of IRS Questions Prior to Recognition of Exemption of CST Under Section 501(c)(3) As a Church on October 1, 1993. "


Footnote 6: Although there is no policy or Scriptural mandate expressly requiring Scientologists to renounce other religious beliefs or membership in other churches, as a practical matter Scientologists are expected to and do become fully devoted to Scientology to the exclusion of other faiths. As Scientologists, they are required to look only to Scientology Scriptures for the answers to the fundamental questions of their existence and to seek enlightenment only from Scientology. Thus, a Scientologist who grew up in the Jewish faith who continues formal membership in his synagogue and attends services with his family violates no Scientology policy or tenet. On the other hand, such a person is not permitted to mix the practice of his former faith into his practice and understanding of Scientology so as to alter orthodox Scientology in any way.



http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/irs.htm

 

[Type4_PTS]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

ok, can you point out how it is fallacy?

The existence of Christians doesn't depend upon jquepublic's beliefs or lack thereof.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

The existence of Christians doesn't depend upon jquepublic's beliefs or lack thereof.

no

of course it doesn't...

but...

this goes outside the internal logic of the statement

if atheism, the nonexistence of god is the initial axiom

and...

the christ,meaning "the anointed one" must be anointed by god

then within the bounds of the axiom, there can be no christ

if there is no christ, then there can only be a deluded belief in christ thus in existential terms there can be no christians

thus no christian can be a scientologist as there ain't none

 

[Type4_PTS]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

THE BOTTOM LINE:

the nazarene directs i love my neighbor as i love myself

i have for forty years used auditing to do good things for my neighbors who have been grateful that i did

seems awfully simple to me...

and then here...

this bottom line seems very simple and clear

any comment on it?

anyone?

Yes, here's a comment from Hubbard about what he thought of your Christian love.

"Love, if you have ever noticed, does not much care where it sites on the tone-scale as we find a young man deeply in love starving himself to death (a characteristic of apathy) and a young girl in love in dreamy enthusiasm which makes her bloom. We find love used in Christianity about twelve feet below 0.0 [death] and in New York precisely at 2.5 on the tone scale." Professional Auditor's Bulletin No. 8, "Viewpoint Processing, p. 50 in _PABs_ Book 1, May 1953 to April 1954.
http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/christian.htm

Anyways, I think I've pretty much made my point and am done with this thread. Until next Christmas anyways.

 

[Lermanet_com]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

"The only difference between moslems and christians is how they go to the bathroom" (Laughing) L Ron Hubbard WMA RM

"The Man on the Cross the was no Christ" LINK

Ron Hubbard's son said:" He was very interested in several things that were the creation of what some people call the Moon Child. It was basically an attempt to create an immaculate conception --except by Satan rather than by God. " LINK

And it should be no surprise that the only other historical mention I could find of a Moon Child ceremony was done by some of Hitler's pal's...

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

Oh no, I thought you were the accused not the accuser, I should have been more clear.

no, DG, i was the accused i was just referring to your judge quote saying the offended is usually guilty to remove any taint from them...

as any goodhearted person, christian or otherwise would

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

Yes, here's a comment from Hubbard about what he thought of your Christian love.




Anyways, I think I've pretty much made my point and am done with this thread. Until next Christmas anyways.

well, i hope you at least read this

i know what ron said and wrote

it just doesn't bother me

 

[Boomima]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

Without wishing to start a battle over this I will say that I know atheist historians who would argue that there was a man named Jesus who was executed by the Romans as a potential trouble source. (Sorry, I couldn't resist...)

The belief part comes in when you start discussing miracles, rising from the dead, being the Son of God, and belief in the Trinity. I don't get how is someone does not believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah (Christ being Christos or the Anointed one, a way of explaining to non-Jews who the Messiah was. There is no direct Greek translation of Messiah.) means there are no Christians. Jews and Muslims, for example, do not believe that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and, yet, there are Christians.

You have to change what you mean by Christian belief to accommodate Scientology. You can believe that Jesus was just another in the long line of Jewish apocalyptic prophets who preached a social justice ministry but that is not really part of Christian belief.

Reincarnation is also not really part of Christian belief. There are lots of things you can try to squeeze out of the Jewish Bible and Christian New Testament but that doesn't mean they are part of either faith. I won't list them here because that would be a derailment.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

I think some of the discussions on ESMB, lately, have been of the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" sort. I actually think that's neat.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

Without wishing to start a battle over this I will say that I know atheist historians who would argue that there was a man named Jesus who was executed by the Romans as a potential trouble source. (Sorry, I couldn't resist...)

The belief part comes in when you start discussing miracles, rising from the dead, being the Son of God, and belief in the Trinity. I don't get how is someone does not believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah (Christ being Christos or the Anointed one, a way of explaining to non-Jews who the Messiah was. There is no direct Greek translation of Messiah.) means there are no Christians. Jews and Muslims, for example, do not believe that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and, yet, there are Christians.

You have to change what you mean by Christian belief to accommodate Scientology. You can believe that Jesus was just another in the long line of Jewish apocalyptic prophets who preached a social justice ministry but that is not really part of Christian belief.

Reincarnation is also not really part of Christian belief. There are lots of things you can try to squeeze out of the Jewish Bible and Christian New Testament but that doesn't mean they are part of either faith. I won't list them here because that would be a derailment.

that doesn't look like thread derailment to me boomer, it expands on what the meaning is of christian faith

as i understand it, a belief in past lives was purged from mainstream christian theology at the council of nicea in a.d. 422. prior to that it was a fairly common minorty opinion and a mainstay of the gnostics. the still cited verse of scripture is heb. 9,3 "it is appointed unto a man once to die..." however, this would not seem to preclude a soul's return another man who would then once die

and of course no matter how many atheists there we are still here. i presented a logical construct which can be extrapolated to a godless universe where there are but atheists. i can assure you i would not wish such a fate on my many atheist friends

you, like pitsy, decline to present your personal stance and JQ gives her avowal

is there professing Xian on the thread who would care to take exception to my own stance?

and hi to sharone! love your writing, happy to have you for a reader!

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

I think some of the discussions on ESMB, lately, have been of the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" sort. I actually think that's neat.

now if only zippy would stop by and tell us how many angels can dance on a pinhead

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

Ok, I get it now. You're not trying to have a conversation, you're just stirring shit.

Go ahead then and have at it. I'll leave my comments and my question open to anyone else who might actually consider that Scientology and Christianity are compatable belief systems.

well JQ if you won't tell me why you think i'm trying "to stir up shit" i'll never know

i love to converse and i'd like to know if you ever saw any of those christians "cognite" as those certainly certain and certitudinous scientogolists predicted

 

[Jquepublic]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

CBA, PTS Type 4 covered my reasoning. My belief in something is not a basis for its existence.

To clarify my own position, I am an agnostic atheist - I don't believe in God but can't prove no God exists, either. I'm also a student of Joseph Campbell and believe that we need our mythology to help us navigate and make sense of the world and our place in it, so the idea that I consider those who DO believe in God as delusional (something you mentioned previously) is not correct. I respect the right of others to believe whatever they like, but I exercise on my own right to disbelieve.

I study religions and their cosmology out of my interest in Campbell's research and my Jungian leaning. I am by no means a doctoral candidate but I have a decent grasp of the belief system we're discussing. Belief in Christ as the son of God is a cornerstone principle of the Christian faith. You know this, so your assertions that Scientology and the things Hubbard says regarding Christ, God, Heaven etc. is in any way compatable with the traditional teachings of the Christian faith strikes me as a deliberate attempt to stir shit rather than address the diametrically opposing views of these two faiths and the genuine and often repeated question in this thread: HOW can you be both a Scientologist and a Christian?

I submit something to you for your consideration, and I hope that you will take it in the spirit with which it's intended and not think that I am being insulting. I believe you have a penchant for taking a construct and its associated label, claiming it as your own (Scientology, Christian are two that come to mind) changing the meaning of it to suit your own beliefs and then insisting that others accept your version of things as fact, or as proof that the two are compatable. While there is nothing particularly wrong with you deciding what to call yourself or how to view your particular belief system, it is frustrating as a poster to discuss these things with you because it invariably muddies up the subject to the point of non-recognition.

I hope that makes my position more clear.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

Well, I kinda like it when people do that. Belief systems should be far more mutable than they are.

 

[Wants2Talk]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

Reincarnation is also not really part of Christian belief. There are lots of things you can try to squeeze out of the Jewish Bible and Christian New Testament but that doesn't mean they are part of either faith. I won't list them here because that would be a derailment.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen1.html


I beg to differ! Reincarnation was a part of first century Christianity. It was the council of Nicea http://www.christian-history.org/council-of-nicea.html#sthash.nklmnKE4.dpbs that ruled out re-incarnation.

 

[AnonyMary]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

I don't have time to read this whole thread but I thought I would post some links to information available on the internet which discusses this topic at length.

The last link is an amazing collection of of documents and books on Scientology and Religiosity. Included there is the booklet Scientology and The Bible, compiled by some scientologists in the UK many moons ago.

As a christian, and after research on the matter, I can only state that Scientology is not compatible with Christianity. But read for yourselves the research of others on the subject.

Is Scientology Compatible With Christianity?
John Weldon, Christian Research Journal, 1993.
Theological presuppositions (Scientology beliefs regarding God, Man, Creation, Salvation, Death, and the Occult) and Critique.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s22.html

What Christians Need to Knowabout Scientology

by Margery Wakefield (1991
http://www.scribd.com/doc/65187964/What-Christians-Need-to-Know-about-Scientology-Wakefield


Scientology vs Other Faiths

An essay about Scientology and its seeming ability to co-exist with other religions.
by Ro1and Rash1eigh-Berry, June 1998. May be copied freely without restriction
http://www.scribd.com/doc/57699236/Scientology-vs-Other-Faiths

Why Christians Object to Scientology
Craig Branch of the Apologetics Resource Center notes Clear differences.
By Jody Veenker [ posted 9/8/2000 12:00AM ]
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/september4/8.93.html

The Scientology Comparative Theology Page
Scientology and Christianity
http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/christian.htm

Scientology Criticized 1700 Years Ago,
Peik Stromsholm, 1995.
A comparison of Scientology doctrine to Tertullian's (207 A.D.) treatise "Against the Valentinians", an early Christian work describing why Gnosticism is foreign to Christianity.
http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/gnostic.txt

Scientology Religiosity? Series ( C0mpiled by AnonLover )

An Independent Research Series of Publications by Project Chanology Anonymous (WhyWeProtest.net).

Scientology: Theology or Mysticism? Although we strictly protest the abusive practices of the Corporate Scientology empire, we cordially invite you to explore the truth & decide for yourself. This series of publications is a fair usage catalog of excerpts & articles from primary & secondary source materials for educational purposes only. Published for supporting comparative analysis on how the Church of Scientology views its doctrines and L. Ron Hubbard in relation to major religions, ancient mythology, and other religious leaders.

Scientology Religiosity? Volume I
Scientology Religiosity? Volume II
Scientology Religiosity? Volume III
Scientology Religiosity? Volume IV
Scientology Religiosity? Materials Index

See all 79 documents
http://www.scribd.com/collections/3084764/Scientology-Religiosity-Series

 

[Boomima]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

that doesn't look like thread derailment to me boomer, it expands on what the meaning is of christian faith

as i understand it, a belief in past lives was purged from mainstream christian theology at the council of nicea in a.d. 422. prior to that it was a fairly common minorty opinion and a mainstay of the gnostics. the still cited verse of scripture is heb. 9,3 "it is appointed unto a man once to die..." however, this would not seem to preclude a soul's return another man who would then once die

and of course no matter how many atheists there we are still here. i presented a logical construct which can be extrapolated to a godless universe where there are but atheists. i can assure you i would not wish such a fate on my many atheist friends

you, like pitsy, decline to present your personal stance and JQ gives her avowal

is there professing Xian on the thread who would care to take exception to my own stance?

and hi to sharone! love your writing, happy to have you for a reader!

Again, I fail to understand why one must be a Christian to discuss the tenets of the faith? Christianity has changed over time, yes. Every religion changes over time. Rabbinic Judaism rose out of necessity when the Temple was destroyed. Referencing ideas and beliefs that were discarded by early Christians does not make a convincing case for a peaceful co-existence between Christianity and Scientology.

Now that I think of it, they are both pretty hardcore evangelical faiths. That makes it even less likely that they could work together.

Asian/Eastern faiths are able to work together. There are plenty of people who are able to float between Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto... But they are very different than Christianity.

 

[Boomima]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

Well, I kinda like it when people do that. Belief systems should be far more mutable than they are.

On the individual level, they are. It's just that there are beliefs attached to these faiths and you should acknowledge that you have skimmed the parts you like from them.


But if you want to call yourself an eggplant worshipping Buddhist Hindu, rock on.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

CBA, PTS Type 4 covered my reasoning. My belief in something is not a basis for its existence.

To clarify my own position, I am an agnostic atheist - I don't believe in God but can't prove no God exists, either. I'm also a student of Joseph Campbell and believe that we need our mythology to help us navigate and make sense of the world and our place in it, so the idea that I consider those who DO believe in God as delusional (something you mentioned previously) is not correct. I respect the right of others to believe whatever they like, but I exercise on my own right to disbelieve.

I study religions and their cosmology out of my interest in Campbell's research and my Jungian leaning. I am by no means a doctoral candidate but I have a decent grasp of the belief system we're discussing. Belief in Christ as the son of God is a cornerstone principle of the Christian faith. You know this, so your assertions that Scientology and the things Hubbard says regarding Christ, God, Heaven etc. is in any way compatable with the traditional teachings of the Christian faith strikes me as a deliberate attempt to stir shit rather than address the diametrically opposing views of these two faiths and the genuine and often repeated question in this thread: HOW can you be both a Scientologist and a Christian?

I submit something to you for your consideration, and I hope that you will take it in the spirit with which it's intended and not think that I am being insulting. I believe you have a penchant for taking a construct and its associated label, claiming it as your own (Scientology, Christian are two that come to mind) changing the meaning of it to suit your own beliefs and then insisting that others accept your version of things as fact, or as proof that the two are compatable. While there is nothing particularly wrong with you deciding what to call yourself or how to view your particular belief system, it is frustrating as a poster to discuss these things with you because it invariably muddies up the subject to the point of non-recognition.

I hope that makes my position more clear.

campbell rocks! jerry garcia was into him bigtime. i only have a small familiarty with him in passing but he's coooooooool...

???????

when have i ever insisted on someone accepting what i say as Truth?

i do try to address misduplication of my statements. that's not an attempt to make someone agree with me but please disagree with what i said, not what you think i said

ron was a walking yak festival. little of the wackydoodle stuff is on the auditng materials i trained upon and those materials almost uniformly accord well with the pinciples of our judeochristian scripture or do not violate it. and anything that violates my principles i just let it be and don't apply it

doctrinal christians of whatever stripe can be somewhat nonplussed by my beliefs too.

thank you for further articulating your own beliefs and even more for just speaking to me

so anyway...

it might seem a rhetorical question to ask if any of the christians you knew in scn ever had the predicted "cognition" but seriously, did you ever see that happen?

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview

Well, I kinda like it when people do that. Belief systems should be far more mutable than they are.

i go with firm and flexible; bone and muscle

but...

some of my best friends are mutants