Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Tilly, Oct 23, 2017.

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  1. pineapple

    pineapple Patron Meritorious

    They aren''t bad, so much; it isn't like The Exorcist, or something. It's just that you can be affected by their reactive minds. You don't start dealing with body thetans until after you've gone clear, when you've presumably "erased" your own reactive mind. The BT's provide a convenient explanation for why you still have many of the problems that you would expect to have gone at that point.

    More on this here:
  2. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    LRH said thetans were inherently good and this was evidenced by the fact that they withheld themselves from a thing or area if they felt they were harming it in order to prevent themselves from causing harm. Scientologists believe this is why classic SPs like Hitler ultimately fail. If you subconsciously withhold from something then you cannot effectively control it and you will sabotage it yourself. Looking at LRH’s own efforts and those of current management - it does give one pause for thought.

    However, LRH seems to have perceived humanity as infested by these pernicious lower class of beings and I think he didn’t trust people because he felt they were contaminated until they had done the OT levels. He did seem to be obsessed with this idea until he died.

    Scientologists are strictly forbidden to discuss or look at anything about the OT Levels until they are on the level. People are handling their “case” while working their way up the Bridge and this includes all subconscious aberrations and whole track incidents. So if you are exposed to OT material, aside from LRH’s warning that you can get pneumonia and die, they consider that this will mess up your case and therefor you will require extensive auditing repair at great monetary expense. They will also probably consider it an ethics transgression and require sec checks and lower conditions assignment penalties. It can get you barred or make it more difficult to qualify to receive the OT levels also.

    Just by knowing of Xenu and BTs you already know more than most Scientologists. LRH seems to have fielded the concept of different races, classes or subsets of thetans early on as evidenced by this 1952 tape where he introduces Targs. I suspect this wasn’t received very well by many people who signed on over the more Freudian idea of Dianetics and he seems to have shelved it until the concept of BTs was introduced much later. In all my decades as a Scientologist I never heard the term "Targs" until this tape on the Bunker. The OT levels can be downloaded from wikileaks.
  3. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Wouldn't that be "Get thee three feet behind me, thetan"?
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  4. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    That's funny!

    Play on an instant exteriorization command.

    Wasn't there another one that went, "Hold your head still"?

    Think it was in Mechanics of SCS (Start Change Stop) or some emeter drill booklet.
  5. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    I remember when I finally left Scientology and started peeking at the Internet, I was surprised at the use of "clams" to describe Scientologists. "That's ignorant!", I thought, "Almost no one in Scientology knows about that and no one believes that." I guess back in the 50s, when that term was first coined, it might have been more appropriate.

    But as an insult to Scientologists, it really doesn't work and just sounds ignorant.
  6. Tilly

    Tilly Patron

    My glossary says: "Body Thetan (BT, or "dead alien spirit" in non-Scientology terms).
  7. Tilly

    Tilly Patron

    Am I right in assuming that in this vid Mr. Fisher is saying that there are other OT levels that DM is in possession of?

  8. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Basically, yes. The Church has always had a PR problem with this. They can't even acknowledge the subject exists publicly but for people who have done the OT levels they know it exists. They even claim it as copyrighted sacred text material in court in order to keep it from being entered into court transcripts, etc.. Watch how they try to dance around it in these first two vids. The South Park "In the closet" episode was quite literal.

    Leah gets into this in the third vid.

    Leah Remini - Scientology and the Aftermath - S02E04 - The Bridge to Total Freedom
  9. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Keeping in mind that we are talking about made up fantasy stuff here, I think Mark Fisher is extremely reputable and I would take what he says at face value. Someone else can probably refer to the exact reference but I think LRH suggested that there could be about 20 or 30 OT levels. Did he actually finish preparing levels above OT VIII or did he start them and is DM trying to figure out how to prepare them for sale?

    I think the OT levels are a reflection of LRH's own obsession and paranoia than anything. It's spaced up demonology. Then you are paying the big bucks to handle the demon's cases and doing their drug rundowns instead of your own and there are like hundreds of billions of them. I still can't get anyone to tell me if you get rid of your BTs if they come back and stick to you again in the next life - my god, eez endless! It gets so far away from the original concept of a fun new agey do it yourself therapy that made this all popular in the first place that you are left in a place that had nothing to do with your original purpose. They expect the entire population of earth to buy into the Dianetic concept of Clear and then accept this switch up?

    It is hard to admit but yes, I was a member of a UFO doomsday cult.

    I do not know but if I were DM I'd probably slap a sticker on it and put it out on the shelf if it made a few more millions and extended the runway to the end of the Bridge.
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  10. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    There is very little information but some stuff has leaked out about this. I've pieced together what I think happened -- but I have no evidence that it is true.

    I think that, when LRH died and DM got possession of his file cabinets full of Ron's "research" he found garbage. There was nothing there about finished and codified "upper OT levels". That part I read from someone who was there.

    There was nothing above OT7. I believe that DM cobbled together the "OT VIII" materials from the garbage. But when he released it and people started auditing, it was a complete disaster. People got very sick, people blew. The current "OT VIII" has been heavily modified by DM to try to resolve all the problems.

    I believe this really scared DM. He realized he could not just make up more OT levels from LRH's garbage, the results from his OT VIII attempt were bad and the remaining garbage was even harder to make any sense of.

    Bottom line: There are no more OT levels, and there never will be. There is only "Redo the whole bridge from the very beginning."
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  11. Tilly

    Tilly Patron

    Who knows when LRH supposedly did it and since it is said he was going nuts as far back as when? You could be right maybe the stuff DM got his hands on was nothing but a bunch of garbage. Good thought Bill.
  12. Tilly

    Tilly Patron

    OK, all you clams listen up. Go over and follow the link to a petiton I posted about Investigating the Tax Exempt status of Scientology by Jeffrey Augustine. I put it in Breaking and Major News.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  13. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I love how Jeffrey has documented the way the Church snares people into signing off on their own legal slavery. It is deviously clever because there is very little that someone else can't do to you if you sign away your own protections, especially if the Federal government and lower bureaucracies define an entire category for exclusion as a constitutional right.
  14. EZ Linus

    EZ Linus Patron with Honors

    I'll pop back in to say: I don't much care about what ridiculous crap we believed in anymore. I've been embarrassed for so many years, I'm starting to warm up to giving all that up. Why was it so much weirder than the magical things "normal" religions believe anyway? A virgin giving birth to God? resurrection and ascending into the sky? Insane asylum indeed. Just sayin.' No offense.
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  15. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    DM made pretty much the same point on Nightline.

    I used to be fairly neutral about this also but my position seems to be shifting. What is the functional difference between the motivation of getting 72 virgins in the afterlife and being able to follow LRH to Target 2? What is a normal religion?

    Somehow these odd beliefs have a way of coming together in combination in policy or practice that do real world harm. Maybe government has to stay at arms length but society doesn't. I wouldn't want to admit to being a Scientologist any more and I sure wouldn't want to have to defend LRH's space opera woo as being in itself harmless in a debate.

    Most religions have evolved away from barbaric practices and in many cases those practices were not part of the original basis of the belief system but cultural or political add ons. Slavery and conversion by the sword was always part of Islam and so are the most barbaric tenets of Scientology. I don't see a path for Scientology to evolve any more than Islam. For both to not be barbaric they would have to become something completely different from their founding. They are both militaristic, have their own political and judicial systems that are incompatible with democratic systems and seek world domination. Muhammad rode Buraq from Mecca to Jerusalem and LRH took his magical journeys with an emeter and the takeaway from both are a mandate for conquest and subjugation. Remember, believing in BTs means that people who have not gotten rid of their BTs are somehow inferior, degraded or can't be trusted. That kind of thinking isn't neutral or harmless. Much of Scientology's fantasy is in fact an integral part of a system of categorizing people in derogatory contexts which rationalizes treating them differently and granting moral authority to Scientology.
  16. Tilly

    Tilly Patron

    Excellent post TOBB.

    Quote:" Remember, believing in BTs means that people who have not gotten rid of their BTs are somehow inferior, degraded or can't be trusted." Unquote
  17. EZ Linus

    EZ Linus Patron with Honors

    Yes, TOBB, you make excellent, truthful points which I agree with. I think I was misunderstood because I think Scientology as a thing, an organization (I do not think it is a "religion" in any way), a company with all of its policies, lawyers, mind games, etc., is a menace to society. I am only making a point in that believing in Jesus or unicorns are not so different. That was my only point, but I do realize that saying this is probably too disruptive, so I probably shouldn't have said anything -- that's not to say that you think so. You probably don't, but some might find that offensive. And for that, I apologize.
  18. Anonycat

    Anonycat Crusader

    True, Hubbard wrote that " ... it's not religion ..." in one of his books. It was the monumental task that Larry Brennan took on while in he cult, that saved them on a billion dollar tax debt. The cult became a tax exempt corporation.

    Back to the clams and BTs. Hubbard said you may encounter the tight jaw in people being audited, and it's because they had been living in a clam many yeas ago. That's pretty funny! BTs are the souls of the aliens that Xenu brought here. That's also funny!

    He went on to explain that those souls were captured and brainwashed over a month, until they believe in what we call the real world. He then went on to say that the only solution is scientoloy. It will return you to you godlike state! But, how stupid were these aliens to begin with?

    They got rounded up in the billions, and over what must have been a long time - because of the vast numbers - on false tax audits. No one noted that all their friends and relatives were disappearing. NOT very godlike! Or came up with birth control options!

    Worst place in the world to be, if you bought that shite? Wherever auditing is taking place.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
  19. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I don't think anyone needs to apologize for this kind of statement. Even Leah says as much on Aftermath. There are lots of examples where this may be a fairly true and reasonable assumption but this really isn't the case with Scientology or any fundamentalist belief system when everything is put in context. It really comes down to whether the net result of such beliefs are destructive or helpful and the totality of Scientology's more exotic or esoteric beliefs are oriented toward control and disparagement of classes of people.

    Most religions contain a belief in good vs evil, hell vs heaven, yin vs yang, etc. Even these can be categorized as methods of control but in Scientology even their version of heaven, or an omnipotent individual thetan, is the basis for moral relativism that facilitates the enabling of abuse instead of a higher standard for ethical behavior. In Scientology it is believed that by telling all an individual neutralizes negative subconscious influences and you can't advance spiritually without being ethical. Ethics and spirituality have always been closely linked philosophically. If you are going to be a fully telepathic fully operating exteriorized thetan then there can't be any secrets. You have to be squeeky clean, so even a simple concept like this becomes the hoarding and abuse of personal information by the Church and indoctrinates followers to submit to cruel, expensive, intrusive sec checks and outrageously invasive personal history questionnaires.

    You can go down the list like this comparing how an abstract or mythological belief in one religion is actually applied in real life vs Scientology and I think you will find that ultimately Scientology's influence will be more harmful than beneficial.
  20. Gizmo

    Gizmo Rabble Rouser

    Clams ? HoM ? So much bullshit.

    More likely to me is that each time we make a transition from a mortal physical body & our non physical immortal self we drop all the baggage going cleanly into the future.

    So, if there was a clam - so what ? If I fell off a bridge in 1800 - so what ? Or, even if we killed each other in a duel in 1701 - so what ?

    How 'bout that shit does matter until somebody ( who wants to control us ) tells us oh hell yes it matters & you are an eternal victim of it until you buy & believe my snake oil !

    But, hey, some are going to that snake oil, believe in it & peddle it to all others!

    Gee, some even start to make their own special IMPROVED version of that cure-all snake oil & go hawking it!

    Endless possibilities here !

    Of course, the best end is just to end it, period.