do they physically prevent you from leaving?

Discussion in 'Leaving Scientology' started by not-a-cult-member, Mar 21, 2016.

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  1. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    I understand and to be honest (and I didn't want to mention this in my earlier post) it was what happened when you finally dragged yourself back to your siblings and family (indifference at best) that pulled at my heartstrings on your behalf, possibly because I've experienced a similar feeling myself and I don't know if I'll ever really "get over" it.

    Families are bloody hard work.

    That's all.

  2. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    I was a member of public. I had a house, job and life outside of scientology. I had no family or real friends inside scientology so it should have been easy for me to leave but it wasn't.

    I even knew I was wasting my time there. I could see the out-tech, off-policy, plain stupid things being done for no valid reason yet I still felt guilty about leaving.

    Having left I then had to endure the letters, phone calls, personal visits all preying on my feelings that I'm letting people down on a huge scale and I did wonder if I'd done the right thing.

    I only really got over it when I found out Hubbard was a liar.

    I've always been a lover of books. When I read Dianetics I knew it must be true because the authorities wouldn't let someone sell a book like this if it wasn't true. It was only after I left that I found out it was all lies. That was the point I was really out of scientology.
  3. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    For most long-in Scientologist, this isn't an idea that naturally occurs. They get drilled into them that using the police against a Scientologist, for any reason, is a Suppressive Act. I must confess, that even as a long-out Scn, it was not an idea that naturally occurred to me until you pointed it out.

    Plus OSA strives to cultivate a good relation with the local cops, and there's always the possibility that a local cop might be on the OSA payroll. Better to get well away from the nearby jurisdiction before trying it.
  4. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    Scientology attracts two main types of people: the ones who want to help, and the psychopaths who prey upon them. The psychopaths very often get posted in executive positions, because they can be as cruel as they need to be to get compliance.

    If you are insane, I would be happy to have you as company in the asylum.
  5. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    True enough, but from what I used to read in ARS some of the 'psychopaths' may have started out as good people who wanted to help but got corrupted as they got further entrenched and progressed up the SO ladder.

    I also think that because of its extreme rule-boundedness, Scn (and the SO in particular) attracts a fair number of obsessional neurotics and high functioning autistic people who appreciate the fact that everything is laid out in advance and they never have to do any thinking for themselves. Someone else (I forget whom) mentioned this latter fact a while back.
  6. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    'There are two types of people in this world, the givers and the takers, and the givers get took.' - Kay Hopkins, wife of London Org ED Ron Hopkins.

    Yeah, me too!
  7. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    This is absolutely part of the mental manipulation. Collaboration with government agencies or doing anything that reflects negatively against the Church can be considered a High Crime punishable by a Condition of Treason. New Sea Org recruits are screened for this from the start and it is a constant theme that any wog government system is inferior and a potential enemy such as the declaration that the "war" was over with the IRS after tax exempt status was granted. LRH worked very hard to imprint his paranoia onto the rank and file.

    But this thread is inquiring specifically about physical restraint. It is a good question to make a distinction between physical and non-physical coercion. If I were wondering why these people just don't walk away or imagining if I were in their shoes it would be the question I would ask. Probably the best analogy is an abused wife who has the opportunity to run but doesn't or refuses to see a doctor or file a police report. An extreme analogy could be someone who has been kidnapped and knows they will probably be killed - what would they be willing to do to escape?

    Sea Org members are taught to use Tone 40 Intention which can be interpreted as a desire to overwhelm another person with pure force of will. They are also drilled to use 8C which is basically the use of physical force in the exact degree proportional to the level of resistance. When you combine the two in a true believing Sea Org member missioned with preventing someone from leaving, it can be very intimidating. But Sea Org members who are trying to recover someone or prevent them from leaving are also bound by the mental restraints of not wanting to involve the Church in conflicts with the authorities or causing a PR situation with sticky things like mental torture, kidnapping, false imprisonment, battery or stalking so if there is a witness and its out in public they are at a serious disadvantage, especially if it becomes evident that it will escalate into a fight for your life or "Lets Roll" rescue type spectacle with solid merits for a lawsuit. And they definitely don't want to do anything that would cause authorities to pull a search warrant where they would be wandering through the tunnels and RPF berthing.

    Buttoning up all the buildings or locations where a Sea Org member might try to escape would be no easy task. People can jump from 2nd stories or from a higher story to a lower level or awning, etc. If you secure all possible exits from a building on the bottom two levels it would probably look like a prison to the innocent public and violate Fire Code. If there were a fire or earthquake and people were found dead by locked or barred exits that could be the very kind of Black Swan event that would mark the end of the Church. Doors are only as secure as their hinges or the bolt and strike plate and those are only as secure as the screws and surrounding material they are mounted to. It is amazingly easy to break through most doors. You can punch or kick your way through a 5/8" sheetrock wall in less than a minute. Those army cot mattresses would be perfect for throwing over a barbed wire or spiked fence. You get the idea.

    Short of being locked in an incinerator room or chained to a pipe in a boiler room or locked in the bowels of a ship, the prospect of making all Sea Org locations completely physically escape proof is an extremely difficult proposition. Now, as for Sea Org locations in 3rd world countries with no effective building code enforcement or corrupt complicit authorities, maybe anything is possible.

    I think this subject comes down to an individual's determination. If a person telegraphs what can be perceived as weakness or residual compliance then they invite physical restraint and attempts at thought reform. If the Church thought someone was willing to kill or be killed to escape I think they would fold, but that's just my opinion.
  8. Boojuum

    Boojuum Silver Meritorious Patron


    It's a very abusive set-up.
  9. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    groot is alive and well. LOL
  10. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    I think if one is to analyze scientology/hubbard, one has to move into mysticism logic to understand it, which is different from rational logic (mysticism in MHO is corrupted rhetoric). Hubbard surely talked about mysticism. And hubbard read Le Bon,, I can provide the Heinlein letter which Hubbard wrote to Heinlein to prove it. And Le Bon talks about different logic than rational logic, and mystic logic.

    This guy does a good write-up. IMO:


    Now, isn't hubbard's revelations about OT3 Xenu, the same method he used to entrap into his so called revelation?

    I also think this fellow's write-up is a good study of cults like scientology.
  11. lotus

    lotus autonomous rebellous

    I understand sister :flowers:
    - same here

    There are something related to the betrayal of being deserted without knowing why.. It remains painfull for a lifetime.
    I now think the only thing we can do with it is to remember the pain inflicted by those we loved was caused by their ignorance and distance from their own emotions...thus we can transform it in self-compassion and caring for others who may be in a situation they need a little empathy and support for a while

    This place is a living proof we can tranform such pain into love.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
  12. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I left the Sea Org before LRH died. It was crazy, degrading and a complete burn out. I hung around the fringes for quite a while but out in the field people either had no idea what it was like in the belly of the beast or they just didn’t talk about it. Consequently. I didn’t know what was really going on until I dug into the internet a year ago. The singular thing that stands out the most to me about all of this is how the fundamental behavior of the Church has not changed. There is nothing that I see that can’t be traced back to LRH having set the precedent in some way or the other. In this respect, he really is Source.

    Degrees and priorities have shifted but not The Basics (pun intended). Much of what I see in DM is what I would expect from an apprentice who was favored by LRH. He started out working on the film sets, became Messenger On Duty where he would be handling Mission traffic to acquire and renovate buildings. This was all LRH Hobby Horse stuff also.

    The most significant change that I recognize is that the organization seems to have become more secular. This is most evident in the shift of priorities and revenue to IAS donations and all the “Must have before we can do” stuff. Again, LRH did this also but LRH understood and pushed the Tech much more. I’m sure he understood it as a successful con but it was his hobby horse nonetheless. I don’t think DM relates to the Tech. Like it’s just not his thing, more of a necessary distraction to what he is most comfortable doing.

    All this makes me wonder how relevant the Tech is to the thinking of someone who has decided to escape now. A lot of these people probably have not been in as long as the pre-purge generation and as we all know the sea Org is not the great path up the Bridge through auditing and Training that the recruiter promised. They may not be getting a lot of tech experience. Maybe its mostly admin and busy work and the bulk of their tech experience is ethics and discipline based. If that is the case then people blowing now may just be poor sods who are completely spent and tired of the Totalitarian BS.
  13. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    I'm sure this has been said before on here, but the thing I find remarkable about the CofS's behaviour is how accurately you can predict what they're going to do in a given situation by following one simple rule; consider what a decent and ethical organisation would do when faced with the same challenges, and not only eliminate that option but more often than not do the exact opposite. They genuinely have no respect or regard for their parishioners and their time and money whatsoever, and as far as I can tell much the same applies to their lower level staff.

    I wonder how long you can be in the organisation before this simple fact starts to dawn on you, because I think once it does it would become an order of magnitude harder to simply go along with what you're asked to do or the reasons which are being advanced to do it.

    At pain of someone mentioning Godwin's Law, I'd guess it's a lot like being a member of a fascist or Nazi organisation which you know is committing massive atrocities but you're told it's all necessary and OK because you or they are doing it all for the Fatherland. In that scenario, massive conflicts are bound to arise and I'd guess that for a significant proportion of people faced with this dilemma, blowing is inevitable sooner or later.
  14. Lulu Belle

    Lulu Belle Moonbat

    Yeah, that's the one. I remember it well. Right across the hall from ASHOF's CF.
  15. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Hello Lulu Belle,

    I’m so glad to have someone else chime in on this. I do have a vague recollection that there were more than one cage. The ASHO CF was to the left towards Fountain and on the same side of the hall as you exit the ASHO stairwell into the basement. At least this is where it was until it was converted into the Staff Purification Rundown Pilot Program Sauna and maybe it was put pack after the sauna was removed. As you went out of the stairwell there was a regular room across the hall with a regular door a little to the left, so what you are describing would have been to the left of that room and across from the CF if I’m understanding you correctly.

    The cage that I am referring to would have been around the corner to the right as you exit the stairwell, around the corner and at the far end of the tunnel towards Catalina, past the Morgue and on the same side of the hall as the Morgue. The Incinerator was just around the corner to the left of this.

    I remember hearing people were being kept in a cage in the basement at the time but I wasn’t sure which one or if it was several and there could have been different times this was done. I suspect it would be the cage I remember by the Morgue because that general area is where a lot of the RPF were kept and it was more out of the way. Some innocent public person or non-Sea Org staff from LAO could easily wonder into the basement from the ASHO stairway and I don’t think they would want them to see some person living in a cyclone fence enclosure as soon as they stepped out of the door.

    But I could be wrong and I’m open to clarification.

  16. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron