Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Dulloldfart, Jan 27, 2011.

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  1. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I see this word has appeared on 6 threads now, including mentions of it needing its own special thread. I got tired of reading about what people *would say* on a non-existent thread. So here it is. Have at it.

    Or not.

    I'll edit this post and toss in some links to prior posts. . . .

  2. AnonKat

    AnonKat Crusader


    Goall Problem Mass?

    You become what you resist ? By pushing against ?.....in space and stuff ?



    Last edited: Jan 27, 2011
  3. anonkatie

    anonkatie Patron with Honors

    This is basically a repackaging of the older concept of Yin and Yang. It is often understood as opposites, erroneously. It is more truthfully understood as all parts of a whole; consider the Tai Ji symbol. There is a point at which something in most Yang, for example 12 noon in the concept of the day. But then after it is the most it can possibly be, it kicks over into Yin time.
  4. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    One particularly fascinating aspect of this is whether Scientology became something opposite of what it began as.....

    Or, whether Scientology, in its incipient stage (DMSMH) was a knowing fraud to begin with.

    Did Hubbard actually think he had created a Clear?

    My opinion: See link at: http://www.areyoufuckingkiddingme?.com
  5. anonkatie

    anonkatie Patron with Honors

    Well I don't know about an opposite of Scientology.

    But it seems to me that indeed, the "superabundant" effort to hold everything so secret, has produced a natural reaction back to make sure that that will not be. Hence, the intervention of Anonymous. So if you want to say in that sense, anon is its opposite.
  6. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    First reaction is YES, Anon is the opposite. (playful spirit, not-serious, joking & degrading, laughing lots, openly speaking the unspeakable secrets of upper levels without fear of losing their eternity....)

    But, next moment I am left pondering Scientology's claim that "if it's not fun it's not Scientology" weighed against IT'S OWN OPPOSITE DECLARATION that "Scientology is a deadly serious activity...."

    So, Scientology (Hubbard) has a nasty habit of saying two-diametrically opposite ideas and declaring them both holy scripture that must be followed to avoid endless suffering.

    His lying was so prodigious one can virtually find ANYTHING one is seeking in Scientology; therefore, it has a deceptively simple technique to give people the "wins" of finding what they expected or wanted to find.
  7. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Banned

    I think it's safe to say that Ron knew that DMSMH was a 'fraud' in the sense that a He deliberately advanced that he had already created 'Clears'. This despite the frequent witnesses who can 'remember' having been audited by Ron prior to 1946.

  8. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Crusader

  9. anonkatie

    anonkatie Patron with Honors

    And perhaps this is essentially why they are never successful, because with every step they take, there is also a consequent pull back in the opposite direction. That creates a stalemate and inertia. Further, this translates into the individual Scientologist-how can he or she go forward, with all the natural questions that arise? There is a natural inhibition that would result.
  10. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    I've often thought that the "Church Of Scientology" was the equal and opposite (Enantiodromia) thing which came into being. It seems to be the equal and opposite of what most of us thought scientology was intended to be in our idealistic vision of it. (I don't mean what Ron actually intended, I mean what we idealistically thought he intended.)
  11. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Banned

    But, what individual Scientologists 'thought' it was was a 'dub in'. Ron presented a 'mystery sandwich' which everyone infused with his *own* ideals and goals. For some it was a 'movement' and politics; for some 'self help'; for others 'religion' and personal salvation. Whatever your 'ruin'; Scientology was just what the witch doctor ordered.

  12. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    If you want to know what most scientologists idealistically think scientology is (or is about to become at any moment) just think in terms of the equal and opposite of what it actually is at this moment.
  13. Sindy

    Sindy Crusader

    To me, Scientology was supposed to be something like this:


    But ended up being something like this (but not as aesthetic):


    Maybe more like this:

  14. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    LOL, good imagery.
  15. Arthur Dent

    Arthur Dent Silver Meritorious Patron


    There was an idealism more than a dub-in. I think we actually believed the nice things Hubbard wrote like The Creed, What is true for you is true for you, Aims of the Church, etc. We thought we could and would make it a reality by being part of it. There were ruins but sometimes not. Often there was the desire to be part of something bigger than yourself that was helping mankind.

    Now I'm pretty happy helping my cats and dogs.

    Fabulous and absolutely descriptive images, Synthia! I loved them!
  16. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Wow! Where do I begin?

    (The following is entirely true for me and debates would be welcomed. Perhaps by "peer review" on forums such as this a truth can be found.)

    This has actually been a point of study for me for some time.

    Enantiodromia has become quite an encompassing term for myself.

    It is so much more than "contradictory", "irony", "hypocritical", "tend to become what you resist", "dichotomies", etc. It actually encompasses all of those concepts.

    For instance, it can be positive in that thinking to control the mind in order to be free of its affects the avenue is to Zen-like let it go...thereby achieving the goal of not being effect of the mind. Exactly the opposite of what you would "think" one should do.

    Negative examples would be the Hubbard example of holding a child on your lap until they rebel, Miscavige micro-management, teens of too-strict parents, teens of no-discipline parents, etc.

    Technically it's points of opposing extremism nullifying each other to moderation.

    However, I've come to view it as a linear scale with "positive" and "negative" aspects - just like the emotional tone scale, et al.

    At the bottom would be direct opposites brought about by force - as in physical applications of work, etc.

    At the top would be positive aspects brought about by power - as in no ridges, non-duality, no locationality, no physicality, no positionality, etc. (Pan-determinism, etc.).

    At the bottom would be killing the ball on the golf course and getting the inevitable hook or slice - the direct opposite of what was intended.

    At the top would be allowing the swing to "flow" effortlessly and thereby getting the home run.

    When one gets all up and "causative" and pushes, the effort band reduces the intention to the opposite. When one sits back and allows things to flow it is something all together different.

    Remember the child's story of the Wind and Sun? Wind attempts to blow the coat off of the guy and he clutches it tighter...Wind becomes exhausted and end of story. Sun beams warmth and off pops the guys coat.

    It is power versus force.

    It is also a measurement of compassion. The more compassion the greater the positive enantiodromia and the less compassion the greater the negative enantiodromia.

    I consider spiritual aspects to be positive examples of enantiodromia...the Zen parable of the old huge solid oak, strong as iron, that blunts every axe and stifles every fire and the willowy small sapling, pliant as a blade of grass - along comes the storm and the oak snaps and the sapling flows with the wind, which one is "stronger"?

    We have all had the opportunity to witness others who are truly spiritual who transcend opposing views and rise above a petty or even a major upset - at least I hope that we all have had that opportunity - thus defusing the "problem" and healing all involved and bringing everyone to a higher level of understanding.

    I consider physical aspects to be negative examples of enantiodromia...unfortunately these are all too easy and too numerous to witness.

    Therefore, I look for areas of enantiodromia and, based upon whether they are "negative" or "positive", I can tell if it's something with compassion or devoid of compassion. I can tell if it's something spiritual or physical.

    Looking at Scn I see all time highest stats ever of negative enantiodromia (War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength) and I know at once it is a completely physical enterprise, utterly devoid of compassion even for itself.

    As a religion it is completely enamored with the physical universe and "worldly affairs". "Causatively" creating a world without war, crime, insanity, drugs - concerned about "public oppinion" and "PR", addressing the ego. The whole "promise of gain; threat of loss" deal, "playing the game", "upstat", status, IQ, Big Being, yadda, yadda.

    Compare that to a non-dualistic approach of non-attachment...the idea of whether you're "winning" or "losing" you are suffering by physical attachment.

    Enough for now...I'll have to write a book.
  17. freethinker

    freethinker Crusader

    I'll bet you thought it wasn't real?
    http://www.areyoufuckingkiddingme.com/ go ahead and click.
  18. freethinker

    freethinker Crusader

    M.C. Escher, one of my favorites.

    He also did a continuous waterfall.
  19. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Well...I found this thread again.

    I've posted before about unifying and separating.

    Those things that unify have no opposition...there is no enantiodromia as there is no opposite.

    This is a non-duality concept. It is here, in this concept, that I think "spirit" leads us. I think a true divine nature, if it exists, would be here.

    This would be "truth" and we see this modelled in the physical sciences where our greatest moments of clarity and understanding stem from these unifying truths...incidents such as space and time being recognized as spacetime...electricity and magnetism being discovered to be electromagnetic, etc.

    This would be the united condition of "us". E pluribus unum.

    As things progressively separate then enantiodromia enters and becomes more prevalent as this separation continues.

    It is in our divided nature where we experience isolation, limited resources...opposition...and opposites.

    Those things that divide, then, would be devoid of truth...false. The things that divide us would be false...those ideologies that divide would not be true.

    Enantiodromia really becomes evident and prevalent in these areas because force enters into the equation of "doing" something "outside" or "away" from the doer unto or onto a separated "other".

    This would be the opposing position of "vs".
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  20. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    It is by this observation that I measure the truth of something. The more enantiodromia present...the more hypocrisy present...the more irony...the more the actual scene is opposed to the PR scene...the less true something is and the more false it is.

    It is this measure that makes books like 1984 so prescient.

    After all, it is the ideologies...the ideas and their consequent beliefs that really divide people...so it follows that these ideologies and beliefs are false and it is here that we truly are exposed to enantiodromia.

    Cults have "enemies". Cults are false...being based on lies they are representative of what they oppose.

    The Nazis were guilty of everything they blamed the Jews for doing and being.

    Scientology is everything it blames psychiatry for.

    In The Story of a Squirrel one can see that L. Ron and most especially David Miscavige are guilty of almost every single offense that David Mayo is blamed for.

    When I see political division...especially of the oppressed victims blaming others for their plight in the name of Human Rights I can immediately see that these groups are guilty of everything they are protesting. It is they who are oppressing and destroying others' rights.

    They are false, they're at war, they have enemies.
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