Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science

Discussion in 'Human Potential, Self Discovery' started by Udarnik, May 1, 2015.

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  1. Teanntás

    Teanntás Patron Meritorious

    I wonder if he was included in the HIV death statistics

    "Deaths: An estimated 13,712 people with an AIDS diagnosis died in 2012, and approximately 658,507 people in the United States with an AIDS diagnosis have died overalll3. The deaths of persons with an AIDS diagnosis can be due to any cause—that is, the death may or may not be related to AIDS."

    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/statistics/basics/ataglance.html

    Getting hit by a car and dying as a result would qualify for inclusion.:biggrin:
     
  2. Teanntás

    Teanntás Patron Meritorious

    Here's some eye-opening information on the AIDS virus

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi09RD6iFVU

    Maybe these are just disgruntled medical apostates (including Nobel winner Montagnier) :biggrin: Does Davie have any vacancies in the Hole?
     
  3. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    Teanntas, are there any circumstances in which you personally would be willing to inject yourself with an infective dose of HIV, as Robert Willner did? I can answer that definitively for myself - I wouldn't, because my best guess at the moment is that medical science is right about the connection between HIV and developing Aids and it's not a chance I'd ever see the point of taking.

    There are people who have taken seemingly absurd risks in the name of medical science - for example, a medical scientist in Australia gave himself ulcers by drinking a glass of H. pylori bacilli in water, and I even believe someone was brave (or stupid?) enough to drink a glass of cholera bacilli.

    [EDIT: this is indeed true;]

    "In this Sutherland was simply following the orthodox belief of his time. His near contemporary Max von Pettenkofer (1818– 1901) the German public health campaigner, was convinced that germ-bearing cholera excrement would merely prompt a process whereby ‘a specific cholera-miasma is developed, which is then spread along with other exhalations into the houses’. In the words of the Dictionary of Scientific Biography ‘Pettenkofer readily accepted this vibrio [cholerae] as his “x” factor but refused to modify his views on the paramountcy of the telluric “y” factor’ as the cause of epidemic cholera. So confident was Pettenkofer that cholera germs alone were harmless that in 1892, during a virulent epidemic in Hamburg, he publicly swallowed water which contained cholera bacteria. He suffered diarrhoea and excreted samples of the Vibrio cholerae for several days but suffered no worse effects, probably because he had developed immunity from an earlier, mild infection. This demonstration was seen by his followers as a vindication of his theory, thus briefly setting back the cause of medical science."

    http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/31/5/912.full

    A virus such as HIV, though, can't be treated with antibiotics and so you're stuck with it unless your immune system can defeat it - which, despite what that guy was saying in the video you just posted, is far from guaranteed.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
  4. Teanntás

    Teanntás Patron Meritorious

    No, I would not allow myself to be injected with that or any other virus. However, I was amazed at what Montagnier ( he the discoverer of the virus) had to say. It seems the moral of the story is to keep your immune system in good shape. And it seems to me that this would be impossible with a deficiency of the minerals and vitamins that our bodies need.

    Dr. Luc Montagnier: “We can be exposed to HIV many times without being chronically infected. Our immune system will get rid of the virus within a few weeks, if you have a good immune system.”

    Interviewer (Brent Leung): If you have a good immune system, then your body can naturally get rid of HIV?

    Dr. Luc Montagnier: Yes.

    Interviewer: If you take a poor African, who’s been infected and you build up their immune system, is it possible for them to also naturally get rid of it?

    Dr. Luc Montagnier: I would think so.

    Interviewer: That’s an important…

    Dr. Luc Montagnier: It’s important knowledge which is completely neglected. People always think of drugs and vaccine.

    Interviewer: There is no money in nutrition, right?

    Dr. Luc Montagnier: There is no profit, yes.
     
  5. Helena Handbasket

    Helena Handbasket Gold Meritorious Patron

    I'm partial to Dr. Frank Shallenberger's approach as detailed in his book http://www.amazon.com/Bursting-With-Energy-Breakthrough-Youthful/dp/1591201276 . To make a VERY brief summary of it, it's cut down on carbohydrates, exercise, drink lots of water, eat healthy foods, get sunlight, and take replacement hormones (particularly growth hormone aka hGH aka Somatropin which declines dramatically by the time you're 60). This will extend your life as well as give you more energy to live your life during that time.

    Just my $.02.

    Helena
     
  6. Teanntás

    Teanntás Patron Meritorious

    Is Shallenberger talking about products like this ?

    http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/item01049/Innerpower

    It seems that Somtropin would not be approved for the purpose he indicates, at least not in the US.

    http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/human-growth-hormone-hgh
     
  7. Jump

    Jump Operating teatime


    Yes, these are the things i have found too. And they work. Its just that spinach smoothies are not that tasty (but they are a powerhouse food) and carbs are rather yummy.

    Some decent sunlight boosting the VitaminD really gets the hormones going in general.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
  8. oneonewasaracecar

    oneonewasaracecar Gold Meritorious Patron

    The US govt. disagrees.

    https://www.aids.gov/hiv-aids-basics/just-diagnosed-with-hiv-aids/hiv-in-your-body/immune-system-101/

    You will note that some of the HIV always survives. What you have posted is untrue.

    Please do not post untruths that might lead to death.

    This man has also been heavily criticised for promoting homeopathy. He is just losing his rationality with age. It is very sad.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luc_Montagnier
     
  9. Teanntás

    Teanntás Patron Meritorious

    THE MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT VS. THE TRUTH

    Book Excerpt
    By Kary Mullis


    Dr. Mullis was awarded the 1993 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. This article is excerpted from his forthcoming book, Dancing Naked in the Mind Field, to be published by Pantheon.

    When I first heard in 1984 that Luc Montagnier of France's Pasteur Institute and Robert Gallo of America's National Institutes of Health had independently discovered that the retrovirus H.I.V. -- human immunodeficiency virus -- caused AIDS, I accepted it as just another scientific fact. It was a little out of my field of biochemistry, and these men were specialists in retroviruses.

    Four years later I was working as a consultant at Specialty Labs in Santa Monica. Specialty was trying to develop a means of using P.C.R. [polymerase chain reaction, a D.N.A.-amplification method conceived by Mullis] to detect retroviruses in the thousands of blood donations received per day by the Red Cross. I was writing a report on our progress for the project sponsor, and I began by stating, "H.I.V. is the probable cause of AIDS."

    I asked a virologist at Specialty where I could find the reference for H.I.V. being the cause of AIDS.

    "You don't need a reference," he told me. "Everybody knows it."...............

    http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/kmdancing.htm

    You can hear Dr Mullis and other disgruntled medical apostates here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0KPaOh_xwc
     
  10. oneonewasaracecar

    oneonewasaracecar Gold Meritorious Patron

    Seriously. This is not good at all. Please stop.
     
  11. Helena Handbasket

    Helena Handbasket Gold Meritorious Patron

    The first link you mention is for a "secretegogue", a substance which attempts to stimulate the body into secreting more hGH naturally. It does not contain hGH, and Dr. Shallenberger would never recommend it past a certain age.

    The second link attempts to "debunk" hGH as a rejuvenating hormone, but who are you going to believe? I just don't trust Web MD, which pushes only mainstream solutions and probably should be called Web Drug Company instead.

    All I can say is that I'm on hGH and look much younger then my papers indicate.

    But hGH, while a cornerstone of rejuvenation programs, is only one step of a complete program (Shallenberger's book gives all the details).

    I suppose the only way to see for sure is to try it yourself and see what happens, something I've never been afraid to do.

    The level of hGH secreted by the pituitary gland declines dramatically between the ages of 40 and 60. But the doctors refer to their reference charts and say "you're normal for your age". I don't want to be normal for my age. I want to be in good condition. Or as I like to say, "If I'm 60 and tired, am I active enough for my age? If I'm 70 and in the hospital a lot, am I healthy enough for my age? If I'm 80 and dead, am I alive enough for my age?"

    Governments don't want to see people live to 100 and beyond, as it puts pressure on state pension plans. Or as Taro Aso of Japan said, elderly people should "hurry up and die" http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/22/elderly-hurry-up-die-japanese .

    Helena
     
  12. Teanntás

    Teanntás Patron Meritorious

    Is there a particular brand or source that you use?
     
  13. oneonewasaracecar

    oneonewasaracecar Gold Meritorious Patron

    How did the thread about skepticism turn into a woo market?
     
  14. Helena Handbasket

    Helena Handbasket Gold Meritorious Patron

    I use Norditropin SimpleXx. Prices vary widely depending on where you buy it.

    Helena
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
  15. Intentionally Blank

    Intentionally Blank On a mission...

    Right?? Not that I wouldn't frequent a woo market but I like to keep it compartmentalized and away from my critical thinking skills.
     
  16. Teanntás

    Teanntás Patron Meritorious

    There are people who have taken seemingly absurd risks in the name of medical science - for example, a medical scientist in Australia gave himself ulcers by drinking a glass of H. pylori bacilli in water, and I even believe someone was brave (or stupid?) enough to drink a glass of cholera bacilli.

    [/QUOTE]

    Peptic ulcer – an infectious disease!

    In 2005, Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine went to Barry Marshall and Robin Warren, who with tenacity and a prepared mind challenged prevailing dogmas. By using technologies generally available (fibre endoscopy, silver staining of histological sections and culture techniques for microaerophilic bacteria), they made an irrefutable case that the bacterium Helicobacter pylori is causing disease. By culturing the bacteria they made them amenable to scientific study.
    In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren, stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies.
    Difficult 10 years:
    The medical establishment was difficult to persuade - everyone accepted that ulcers were caused by acid, stress, spicy foods, and should be treated by drugs blocking acid production. The big Pharmas were not happy to see any change as patients will have to take medication for life.


    He went to the US to try and persuade the US doctors.

    A big battle was still going on. I went to America to fight the battle there, because unfortunately the American medical profession was extremely conservative: ‘If it hasn’t happened in America, it hasn’t happened’. We needed people in the United States to take the treatment which we had developed.

    “Ideas without precedent are generally looked upon with disfavour
    and men are shocked if
    their conceptions of an orderly world are challenged.”

    http://cockroachcatcher.blogspot.com/2015/04/orthodoxy-and-knowledge.html
     
  17. IVisitor

    IVisitor Patron

    Many things might lead to death.

    What about untruths, that will lead to [almost] certain death?

    Who has ever survived the treatment given to HIV/AIDS patients?

    Perhaps you could convince me that all those people should die,
    but I still would not like it to be done by dishonest means.
     
  18. Intentionally Blank

    Intentionally Blank On a mission...

    I have a very dear friend who was diagnosed in 80's. He's been on conventional treatment since that time and continues to lead a wonderfully full and vital life. He is not just surviving but thriving.
     
  19. oneonewasaracecar

    oneonewasaracecar Gold Meritorious Patron

    You have told people that the immune system can eradicate all of the HIV in the blood.

    As I have posted, this is not true. Some of it survives and starts destroying the immune system.

    If people believe you, and are incautious about HIV because they think they can beat it with their immune system, they might catch HIV and then die.

    As to AZT, I'm prepared to accept that it may have led to deaths. I'm no expert, but many people have said that to me.

    Now HIV sufferers take combination therapy. People can survive and thrive a long time on it.
     
  20. oneonewasaracecar

    oneonewasaracecar Gold Meritorious Patron

    I also can't get over the way that the rational criticism about posting woo on a thread like this was sidestepped by both parties like it was fecal matter on a footpath.

    They just continued unashamedly as though nothing was said. There is something in irrationality that robs people of shame.

    I really wonder what goes through the mind of people like this when they read something that they don't like the sound of and just tiptoe around it like it's not there.

    If anything, this ignoring of reason is ironically the reason this thread exists.

    I reaffirm my post, how is it that people can be posting about unreason and illogical thinking and two people can be conducting an inappropriate conversation in the middle of it and be completely oblivious to the logic and reason that surrounds them.

    It would be like selling snake oil to give you the capacity to grow back a severed limb, but selling it in the middle of a minefield. How can two people walk in the middle of an intellectual minefield and not blow their legs off?

    What goes on in those minds that firewalls them from reason?

    What firewalls them from being embarrassed or even noticing when they are called out on this?

    You are watching fads and fallacies unfold in a thread about fads and fallacies.

    It's like inception.
     

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