Discussion in 'Welcome, Media People and Researchers, Ask Here fo' started by PJSmith, Jan 10, 2017.

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  1. hummingbird

    hummingbird Patron with Honors

    I found a link to a study, which I posted, then I went back and edit my post. Sorry for any confusion. I just thought we needed statistics on this issue from an institute that surveyed a random group of women, rather than individual testimonies. I'm sure it happens, just in this day and age I like facts.

    Edited to add: The statement surprised me. I've never had one, and have only personally known two women who have. Both of them were in loving, committed relationships. They just could not afford children. And Judge Judy sure showcases a lot of single "baby mommies"!
  2. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Thanks. I understand now. :)

    Surveys have their own built-in errors. Only certain types of people will answer surveys, for starters. Then there is the training of the surveyors themselves - are they taking the time to get the most honest answers possible and how skilled are they at getting a person to talk about such a personal subject without asking leading questions?

    Surveys also must make an effort to address different ethnic, economic and age groups in order to be representative of the entire population, since surveys only question a relatively small number of people. Any survey that does not provide a breakdown of its findings by these groups/populations should be considered suspect as not representative of the larger population.

    Surveys can also be skewed toward what the originator wants the survey to show.

    I didn't read the entire survey, but from what I did read, it lumped some extremely different reasons together as a group and appeared to have pre-stated answers to the questions (i.e., respondents answer A, B, C or D). That would indicate survey bias to me.

    If I really wanted to know why women get abortions, I would:
    1) Survey every woman walking into any abortion clinic in an entire area,
    2) Ask if this was a repeat abortion,
    3) Find out the age, ethnicity and income bracket,
    4) Ask a person's religious beliefs and if they felt there was a conflict. If so, if the religion condoned or prohibited the practice,
    5) Ask the person about partner and family views about the abortion,
    6) Make note of the person accompanying the woman getting an abortion and if this person seemed to be pushing the woman into it,
    7) Ask the woman's reason as an open question, not as a multiple choice response.

    I think that sort of survey would get some eye-popping answers and also some consistency of religions (i.e., scientology) and show a disproportionate number of young women in middle or higher income brackets who don't want their education interrupted, but might as easily say that their parents would disown them or worse if they left college due to pregnancy.
  3. CommunicatorIC

    CommunicatorIC @IndieScieNews on Twitter

    PODCAST: Karen de la Carriere and Claire Headley on Scientology and forced abortions.

    Karen is interviewed during the first half of the show. Claire is interviewed during the second half of the show.

  4. anon1

    anon1 Patron

    Let's not forget the enforced witch hunt of Scientologist women who also CHOOSE to have abortions. I know teenagers whose lives have been ruined by the religious zealots of Scientology who have told these young girls that if they have abortions they are '1.1'. I know of 3 off the top of my head who, years later have an absolutely shitty life and are barely able to meet rent. I will not condone an organization that surreptitiously capitalises on enforced abortion with just as terrible a crime as enforced pregnancies. NOT YOUR BODY, NOT YOUR CHOICE.
  5. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    That's true; however, beyond a point there are two beating hearts and two brain wave emitting brains, so that would be two people.
  6. anon1

    anon1 Patron

    Not your body, not your choice. Full stop.
  7. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Sorry, when there are two functioning brains there's another person.

    I'm not expressing a view on abortion one way or another. However, this is more complicated than a bumper sticker slogan.

    This thread is not about the nuances of the practice of abortion, and I don't wish to argue that.

    This thread is about coerced abortion in Scientology.
  8. anon1

    anon1 Patron

    There are coerced abortions and coerced anti abortions in Scientology. Both are equally criminal. I have witnessed both first hand. Nobody has a right to tell a woman what to do.
  9. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    Scientology uses sex as a mechanism of control.

    "You're a public and had an abortion? You're 1.1, you need sec checking and then do conditions!"

    "You're a Sea Org member and refused to get an abortion? You're out ethics, you need sec checking and then do conditions!"

    Either way, you lose.

    If it's her body, and she has exclusive choice, to the exclusion of all other potential interested parties, including the father, then shouldn't she have exclusive responsibility for her choice? Should the father have a choice too, as in being able to "abort" any financial responsibility for child support?
  10. anon1

    anon1 Patron

    I will not draw parallels between financial obligations and gestating a baby/dropping your entire life as a mother in order to now focus on another human being. Fathers can abort their financial obligation, sometimes mothers seek legal recourse but mostly they don't.

    Any organisation, church etc which sticks its nose in women's issues further than being a shoulder to lean on should be prosecuted.

    I grew up without a father. He was on staff and wasn't able to pay child support so my mother refused to let him see me. I used to hate my mum for doing that to me and to a degree I still think she should have let him see me. But since leaving the church I have felt more anger towards my dad for choosing staff over his kids. Anyhow, it's sad because now he is ageing and I don't have a relationship with him.
  11. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    It's not that he wasn't able to pay child support. It's that he would not have been able to stay on staff if he had to pay child support. If your mom went to court and asked them to make him pay support, the court would have told him "Leave your volunteer work for Scientology, get a real job, and support your kid".

    But your mom knew that attempting to do so would have gotten her declared. So it was both of them.

    For me, one reason for getting out was that I knew that Sea Org recruiters would soon want to talk to my eldest kid, and having been Sea Org, I didn't want my kids recruited for it. So I began distancing my family from Scientology.
  12. anon1

    anon1 Patron

    Well done to you for being a great parent. My life is totally fine now and I try not to dwell on the past, however I am drawn towards academia and I wasted the years when I should have gone to college on staff. I remember waking up on my 21st birthday crying incessantly. I was so depressed. At the time I thought I was low toned but now I know I was one of the few who felt in my hear something wasn't right.

    I could have definitely achieved much more with a better foundation.

    For anyone sitting on the fence: please, please get your kids out of this cult.
  13. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    When I was in the Sea Org at Flag, there came a point where I realized that, if I stayed much longer, it would be very hard to resume my pre-SO career. I would have to decide if I really wanted to spend my whole life in the SO. If not, I should bug out immediately. So I left. I didn't do the routing form, I just walked out on my dinner hour, got a cab, and got on a plane.

    For everybody who stays, who stays in for years and years, losing all contact with all their pre-Scientology friends and family, who stay in long past the point where they can leave and easily resume their pre-Scn jobs -- it was their decision. They might have been fooled about the abilities they would gain. They might have been fooled about Scn changing the world for the better. But the ultimate decision to stay was theirs.

    Even for the "forced" abortions -- for the most part, nobody I know was held down and aborted against her will. They were each given a choice: abort or be kicked out of the SO and all your SO associates will look upon you as a degraded being because you chose to have a child rather than getting on with the mission to "save the planet". And so they went to Planned Parenthood.

    Once at the abortion facility, they each had the option of saying "Could I please use your phone for a moment?", calling 911, and saying "I've been being held against my will, could I please get a ride to a women's shelter?". But they didn't. The psychological hold which Scn had over them was more powerful than any physical chains could be.
  14. anon1

    anon1 Patron

    Exactly. Amazing that you just walked out. That takes some guts. Once those shackles come off though, there's nothing much in life that will ever hold you down again. Just as those scn chains can be more solid than real ones, so can your mind after scn be more sturdy than reinforced concrete. No one can ever manipulate me again.