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I got onto this board only recently.

I'm an ex scientologist, just as I'm an ex high school student. I don't put a lot of importance on either statement.

Since I left scientology over thirty years ago, the culture has apparently really degraded. Actually, I hadn't stayed in the loop enough to notice.

Recently (last October) a bunch of old friends go together. 90% of us left scientology over twenty five years ago. One of our friends, who remained in, has a kid, who recently joined the Sea Org. Since the kid's father is an ex Sea Org member, but still "in," I wondered how he could let his son do that.

I also started wondering if I could get some of my friends, who've remained in, to look at alternatives. That's when I came to this board.

i haven't read ARS or Operation Clambake ever.

I've been mesmerized by the stories written on this web site. i really had no idea that it was as bad as it is.

When I got involved with Scientology, it was 1968, and I was 17 years old. When I left it was 1976 and I was 25 years old. In that time I bought a house, made a living in agriculture, started a scientology center, did Clear and the shsbc (not in that order). But for me, it was really a lot like high school. I made lots of friends (who are still my friends), had some fantastic affairs, and went to a lot of movies. The Scientology that most of you guys talk about, I didn't get involved with. It got in the way of my life.

When I did the academy levels and the bc, I left every day at 6. (I told them I worked at nights --lie) And at nights and week ends I went to movies with my girl friend, rock climbing, skiing, the LA County Museum of Art was also a favorite. I have major league fond memories of Tommy's hamburgers, the Brooklyn Bagel Factory, walking down Wilshire Blvd till 4 in the morning, submarine races up by Elysian Park (overlooking Dodger Stadium), Disneyland, and taking my dog on wilderness jaunts.

Like Goldie Hawn said in "Private Benjamin," " I joined a different army, where are the yachts and the condos?"--- in scientologese, I was a dilettante and quite happily so.

I never found a part of me that wanted to be an "on-purpose martinet"

In 1971 at the Berkeley Org (which was run by a friend, who I had gotten into Scientology, Ned Branch), where a new course supe freshly back from Flag pissed my girl friend and me off. We organized the room of about 50 students at lunch break, to drop all of our stats. In two days the new jerk was gone. Promoted upstairs and meter checks for all the course room. Our needles were floating. We couldn't have been the source of the crash.:)

So what I'm saying is that I come from a reality far distant from yours. I apologize for out reality. You guys have walked through Hell. I just did the Japanese tour of it through your eyes, and will see it much more clearly when I get the photos downloaded. :)

I am still major league interested in getting some friends OUT.
 

Veda

Sponsor
By the early 1980s, many documents having to do with L. Ron Hubbard's "Scientology covert Intelligence Tech," and its application, had been made available by court order. In late 1982, there was the "Mission Holders conference" and a transcript of it was widely circulated. By the mid 1980s, there was a trial having to do with the Hubbard biography project, and more documents became available. Shortly after, several books on the topic of L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology were published, each containing interviews with former Scientologists - many of whom had worked closely with Hubbard - from the 1950s through the 1970s.

Were you aware of any of this?

It's not a terrible crime if you weren't, but I'm just curious.
 
THANK YOU VEDA!!!!!!!!!!!!:cheerleader:

Please, do tell guys!

I certainly appreciate you deeply....but I also feel there has been ALOT of tech flying by right and left. Much more than before. I hate to act like a consiracy theorist, but has it become more intense lately or what?

"Or what" :)


I wouldn't particularly agree with your assessment of "alot of tech flying by...", but then that depends on what you consider tech. And if I may make a personal evaluation, you appear to have a bit of "sensitivity" on that particular subject. Not all who are out are equally "turned off" by such things.

My own particular interest is in areas of knowledge & study which lead to increasing personal insight. That encompasses a lot of different "techs", scientology among them.

Clearly on a board frequented by former members of the Co$ it is not unreasonable to discuss such topics or perceive relationships between "tech" and the topics of existing threads.

As to the "what's with all the freezoners showing up here all of the sudden", two factors are likely to be especially pertinent.

ESMB has been in existence for about a year. Word of Emma's success in building her forum has gotten out and fz'ers, being scientologists, like to communicate and, being human (mostly), are interested in "whatever happened to ...", i.e. gossip.

Further, the activities of Anon have piqued a lot of interest among the fz lately. ESMB is a convenient "neutral ground" for exchanges of information.

Personally, I enjoy the few tech posts that I find on ESMB. Hardly "alot" from my perspective. I especially enjoy those of both Alan & Dart when they are discussing their respective views on auditing and "the tech". I haven't encountered either of them on other boards before. It's great to get comments from such experienced individuals.

Similarly, it's good to get some sense of what Paul is up to as I don't cross paths with him so much anymore.

Don't worry about fz conspiracies to subvert ESMB. The fz isn't that organized. In so much as we have respective "loyalties", Nick, Terrill, S4K, Gomorran, myself, etc. are all tending to be affiliated with differing "groups".

Of course if we WERE conspiring among ourselves I'd be telling you the same thing. :D


Mark A. Baker
 
By the early 1980s, many documents having to do with L. Ron Hubbard's "Scientology covert Intelligence Tech," and its application, had been made available by court order. In late 1982, there was the "Mission Holders conference" and a transcript of it was widely circulated. By the mid 1980s, there was a trial having to do with the Hubbard biography project, and more documents became available. Shortly after, several books on the topic of L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology were published, each containing interviews with former Scientologists - many of whom had worked closely with Hubbard - from the 1950s through the 1970s.

Were you aware of any of this?

It's not a terrible crime if you weren't, but I'm just curious.




I had some friends at the Mission holders' meeting. I gave a job to Clay Primrose (from the Santa Clara mission) after he was kicked out.

Other than that, I didn't really pay attention.

I missed my last high school reunion too.

Come to think of it, I missed "Wheel of Fortune" tonight. Actually, I've missed it for several decades.



In terms of REAL PRIORITIES:

I didn't miss Toby Keith or Jimmy Buffett, when they came to town.

My wife and I did just get a house a block from the beach.

Snow has been great for skiing lately.

Do you understand where the Co$ fits into my list of important subjects?

It doesn't.

Several of my friends (who are now in their 60s) and their kids are important to me. Frankly I had no idea that the cult had deteriorated so badly.
 

gomorrhan

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm an ex-freezoner, Mark. By mutual agreement with most FZers, my views on the tech put me outside what can be called a scientologist, because I don't accept anything beyond R6EW, and I'm not convinced in the immortality or eternality of the human mind/spirit. I consider the FreeZoners to share my interest in "Clearing", and to be brothers in that regard, but I consider the FZ a mixed bag, as they accept what I consider to be dangerous, possibly false-memory-syndrome inducing practices like running "the Sevens", or other "implants".

I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing the "Tech". It's what attracted me to scientology, originally. It was the organization which repelled me, not the "Tech".
 
I'm an ex-freezoner, Mark. By mutual agreement with most FZers, my views on the tech put me outside what can be called a scientologist, because I don't accept anything beyond R6EW, and I'm not convinced in the immortality or eternality of the human mind/spirit. I consider the FreeZoners to share my interest in "Clearing", and to be brothers in that regard, but I consider the FZ a mixed bag, as they accept what I consider to be dangerous, possibly false-memory-syndrome inducing practices like running "the Sevens", or other "implants".

I stand corrected, although the view you express concerning the fz is much too stringent to apply to the freezone generally.

As I recall your public disputes have been mostly with vocal elements of the "LRH standard tech" wings of the freezone. They don't necessarily represent a majority of the fz field. Albeit, many are leaders within the fz.

In recent years the promoters of "standard tech" have been much more publically active than others as a result of internet efforts to organize and maintain the continued existence of scientology tech. It's a mistake to confuse their preeminence with dominance.

Your statement about "mutual agreement with most freezoners" is YOUR consideration. It arises from arguments you've had on certain specifically "standard tech" boards. It certainly doesn't reflect the thoughts of "most freezoners".

As you said, if in a different context, the fz is a "mixed bag". Plenty of non-standard elements in the bag. My own interpretation of what I've seen in the fz is that a person is a fz'er if he advocates some form of auditing AND CONSIDERS himself to be "in".

Your views, although not "LRH standard" are not all that different from many other fz'ers. However, you choose not to consider yourself a fz'er, ergo you aren't.

The power of "consideration". :coolwink:



Mark A. Baker
 

Veda

Sponsor
I had some friends at the Mission holders' meeting. I gave a job to Clay Primrose (from the Santa Clara mission) after he was kicked out.

Other than that, I didn't really pay attention.

I missed my last high school reunion too.

Come to think of it, I missed "Wheel of Fortune" tonight. Actually, I've missed it for several decades.



In terms of REAL PRIORITIES:

I didn't miss Toby Keith or Jimmy Buffett, when they came to town.

My wife and I did just get a house a block from the beach.

Snow has been great for skiing lately.

Do you understand where the Co$ fits into my list of important subjects?

It doesn't.

Several of my friends (who are now in their 60s) and their kids are important to me. Frankly I had no idea that the cult had deteriorated so badly.

You must not have visited any bookstores, or read the Los Angeles Review of Books, or the New York Times Review of Books, in the late 1980s. Too busy skiing I guess.

Considering your initial description of Scientology's fabulous impact on your life, and with your many freedoms and interests, it does seem odd that you would be so unaware, until only recently.

But that's OK, these things can happen, especially with the house a block from the beach and all.

Just to let you know - now - the deceits and abuses of Scientology have been occurring for a long time.
 
I was around for the Class Vlll course (something that I didn't do). I got first hand reports. A friend of mine was one of only two Vlll students (on the ship) who didn't get overboarded.

There was loads of pressure. The stories of LRH were pretty gruesome even then. Rocky Stump, John McMaster, anybody with a following got killed (I don't mean literally)

I walked through the children's area at Fiefield Manor (now CC). I saw how bad conditions were.

A friend's daughter was put in the chain locker on the Flag ship for falling asleep at 2 AM outside LRH's door.

I visited a friend in his Sea Org house, a former home of Charlie Chaplin in the MacArthur Park area. It was disgusting. I loaned him my apartment for months, while I was away.

Nevertheless there was so much incredible good going on, it didn't upset the balance. By the time the prices started rising every month in 1975-6. The balance, for me, was no longer in favor of the good things.

Jack Horner had left when LRH became too much of an asshole for him, so there was certainly precedent.

I took the tech that I had learned and left without a qualm. Several years later and the mission holders meeting and I was joined by most of my friends and family

As Woody Allen said," Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym."

I never was into sacrificing for the church, when I was in or out .

You sound like you're really interiorized into abuses. I really don't give a lot of attention to Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Iraq, etc. If you want to talk about real abuses though, the world is full of them. Scientology is light compared to most of Africa, parts of Europe, Asia.

Get your priorities in line with the real world.

Scientology, the church, etc is a small fish in a big pond.
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

I never was into sacrificing for the church, when I was in or out .

You sound like you're really interiorized into abuses. I really don't give a lot of attention to Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Iraq, etc. If you want to talk about real abuses though, the world is full of them. Scientology is light compared to most of Africa, parts of Europe, Asia.

Get your priorities in line with the real world.

Scientology, the church, etc is a small fish in a big pond.

First, a bit of advice: Don't play the "You sound really interiorized into abuses" or "Scientology is light compared to Africa" angle - you diminish yourself by doing so, and it accomplishes nothing.

Next: Your story keeps changing.

A little while ago, you "really had no idea it was as bad as it is," etc.

Your memory seems to be returning.

That's good.
 
First, a bit of advice: Don't play the "You sound really interiorized into abuses" or "Scientology is light compared to Africa" angle - you diminish yourself by doing so, and it accomplishes nothing.

Next: Your story keeps changing.

A little while ago, you "really had no idea it was as bad as it is," etc.

Your memory seems to be returning.

That's good.


I may not agree with Carmelo there, on some things...

But in fact go to Africa and other third world countries in central america and (sorry for this…. to you sensitive ones) the SO would be "good times” for those other people.

There have been wars that killed thousands BEFORE scientology was around...

"Religious" injustices like the inquisition and the crusades to name a few have happened with or without the "tech". (where hundreds of thousands perished)

There are many stories of priests raping little boys in the other "bigger" religions.

Scientology is not REALLY a religion it is a subject of study...

Still they are not handing out Prozac or Ritalin.... (like the other “experts on the mind”)

I rather be a slave!!!... than be give some of that shit... I have known a few of these poor souls and believe short of death itself that is a close second…

MR
 
There have been wars that killed thousands BEFORE scientology was around...

"Religious" injustices like the inquisition and the crusades to name a few have happened with or without the "tech". (where hundreds of thousands perished)

Nor are religion based conflicts a thing of the "remote past".

Europe & Nato are still dealing with the results of the 1990's Bosnian War, a conflict fueled by religious differences which resulted in genocide in Europe. The u.s. under president Bill Clinton went to war with Serbia in order to prevent a religious genocide against ethnic Albanian Muslims in Kosovar.

Religious strife was a major reason that President Bush, Senior, refrained from committing u.s. forces to the conquest of Iraq & the complete expulsion of Saddam Hussein. Not coincidentally they are also at the root of the complete mess that Bush, The Idiot, has made of the land of Iraq.

Other evidences are also common in the "modern" world.


Mark A. Baker
 

gomorrhan

Gold Meritorious Patron
I may not agree with Carmelo there, on some things...

But in fact go to Africa and other third world countries in central america and (sorry for this…. to you sensitive ones) the SO would be "good times” for those other people.

There have been wars that killed thousands BEFORE scientology was around...

"Religious" injustices like the inquisition and the crusades to name a few have happened with or without the "tech". (where hundreds of thousands perished)

There are many stories of priests raping little boys in the other "bigger" religions.

Scientology is not REALLY a religion it is a subject of study...

Still they are not handing out Prozac or Ritalin.... (like the other “experts on the mind”)

I rather be a slave!!!... than be give some of that shit... I have known a few of these poor souls and believe short of death itself that is a close second…

MR
Pharmaceuticals have their place in treatment of conditions that respond more readily to them than talk-therapies. I've found that people who are taking SSRIs have no trouble in session. It's a myth that they "aren't there". Perhaps if they're overdosing. After my disconnection from my family, I was suicidally depressed for a short period. During that time, I was on Paxil, and I think it got me over a hump. If you'd have asked me an auditing question during that time, I would have hit you with a taser or a shotgun, if you were persistent.

Sometimes a person is too overwhelmed to be asked to look at case. I needed time to sort things out, and Paxil offered that, while preventing me from sorting it out with a handgun.

"Judge not, lest you judge yourself" - Bob Marley
 
Pharmaceuticals have their place in treatment of conditions that respond more readily to them than talk-therapies.

This is a can of worms.

I audited a woman friend on the sudden unexpected death of her husband. She was on a mood altering drug. For the first time in days, she cryed.. That was good, some relief. Next day she got sick. Obviously something went unflat.

I broke up with a girl friend once and drank a couple of beers a night for two weeks. I'm not much of a lush.

But I really do think that it is whatever gets you through the night. You should do it and not apologize fo it.

The mass murders like Columbine all have had Pozac or other similar mood alterers in use by the killers. That's more a telling point than one Lisa McPherson.

And on the other hand I know bi-polar people who need that drug to keep them level headed. I have never audited a bi-polar person, who really had the huge mood swings, so I don't know what it might do for them, or if audting tech is worthless in that regard. To put that last statement in a context, I don't think auditing works on everyone at all.

In general, I'm mot comfortable wih change of diet. Eliminate sugar, white flour, and MSG. Eat fruits veggies, cut out meat, let your body detox. A body addiced to sugar rush is the makings of a PTS being.
 
Pharmaceuticals have their place in treatment of conditions that respond more readily to them than talk-therapies.

This is a can of worms.

YEP!

But I really do think that it is whatever gets you through the night. You should do it and not apologize fo it.

Yep.

The mass murders like Columbine all have had Pozac or other similar mood alterers in use by the killers. That's more a telling point than one Lisa McPherson.

True so far as it goes. They were already identified as troubled & that's why the mood drugs. Trying to differentiate the effect of the drug from what such people do is a fools game. Not enough is understood about the biological precursors of behavior, nor the effect of mood drugs, nor variation in different metabolisms, etc..

It's too simplistic to blame the drugs.


And on the other hand I know bi-polar people who need that drug to keep them level headed. I have never audited a bi-polar person, who really had the huge mood swings, so I don't know what it might do for them, or if audting tech is worthless in that regard. To put that last statement in a context, I don't think auditing works on everyone at all.

I'm bi-polar, have been since I was 15, although I wasn't diagnosed until 40. It runs in the family. Type II, not prone to dangerous highs but definitely have problems with the lows.

I did great in my auditing on the lower bridge and largely attribute that auditing to helping stave off the worst effects of the disorder until my late 30s. Unfortunately as the body ages the disorder can become more pronounced.

One major benefit of the auditing is the ability to look on what occurs in my body from an "objective" viewpoint. THAT is a BIG FACTOR in assisting with handling some of the effects of the disorder. That is also something the normal treatment methods don't even begin to offer.

The mood stabilizer I'm on has little discernible effect on auditing. It's depakote, not lithium. It's a big help but it is NOT a cure.

The anti-depressants are more of a mixed bag. None of the modern ones especially interfere with the body's functioning or auditing. Subtle effects on the body can be noticed however if you are paying attention. Once spotted they aren't generally problematic and auditing certainly assists the process of spotting.

Neither are anti-depressants generally a big issue in the treatment of bi-polar individuals. They are usually prescribed only on a limited basis. This is because they have a tendency to excerbate the agitated state where an individual is likely to behave recklessly. Doctors are reluctant therefore to use them on bi-polar patients except as warranted and with strict monitoring.

So one potential problem with anti-depressants is inadvertently prescribing them to individuals with an undiagnosed bi-poplar disorder. In that situation they could trigger dangerous behavior, such as drug-related violence.

As a side note, I'm personally inclined to the view that LRH was an untreated (undiagnosed?) full on bi-polar type I individual throughout his life. His actual biographical history reads like a textbook case. This is especially so when viewing: his Navy records, his sexual/marital relationship history, drug use, establishment of the SO, attitudes as expressed in his writings, his decline in health resulting in isolation, and subsequent death in seclusion while under the influence of prescription a sedative.

I'm not a doctor, but he sounds like casebook material.

He may HAVE been diagnosed. His public records from the end of his naval career & immediately afterwards are "suggestive" but uncertain. If he had been diagnosed that might explain some of his pathological fear of mental health care professionals.


In general, I'm mot comfortable wih change of diet. Eliminate sugar, white flour, and MSG. Eat fruits veggies, cut out meat, let your body detox. A body addiced to sugar rush is the makings of a PTS being.

All are factors. Foods & herbs are drugs too. They are just "packaged" & "marketed" differently. For reasons having to do more with "tradition" than logic they are commonly deemed "socially acceptable".

It is also important to recognize that not all bodies react exactly the same way to differing substances.



Mark A. Baker
 
Man that is were i cut the rope!!!!

No drugs, never and i wasnt born in Scientology.
I just thought that ANY chemicals or mood altering anythings, was a sure way to fuck up your body and mind.

Cant agree with ANYTHING in regards to drugs.

Change your diet, exercise, watch a movie, live happy, do that brings you uptone and will keep you uptone and healthy naturally.


MR
 

gomorrhan

Gold Meritorious Patron
Umm... sure, problem being some people don't respond to exercise, diet, movies, or live happily. There is such a thing as depression. I'm not sure if it's genetic (I doubt it), but it is something that the brain becomes addicted to.

I understand your attitude on drugs. I used to have the same attitude, particularly in my early teens. Somewhere around 14 I became fascinated with how my mind could be affected so strongly by chemicals, and that's when I started experimenting with marijuana, and soon after other drugs. I was raised catholic, and thought of the thinking part of me as being a "soul", and I didn't understand how something that was eternal, non-physical, etc., could be affected by a physical substance.

My current view is that the brain is a virtual reality generator (amongst other things), and drugs alter the generator, such that the virtual environment in which the "me" homonculous is existing is altered. The homonculous itself is not changed, except to the extent that it alters itself in response to it's perceived environment. I don't think that the homonculous can actually be affected directly by physical means, nor do I think it can be "fucked up", except that it can consider itself so. However, the hardware of the body/brain can be "fucked up" such that the environment is not being correctly perceived by the homonculous, which can lead to undesired affect for the person, and undesirable behavior from the view of society.
 
I'm not sure if it's genetic (I doubt it), but it is something that the brain becomes addicted to.

Depends what you mean by "depression".

However, the physical structures in the body which regulate the physical expression of mood are themselves regulated by genes. As a result differences in genetic coding can produce variable "effectiveness" of the various mood systems.


Occasional occurrences of depression are not likely resulting from a genetic base.

On the otherhand, recurrent depression is a commonly associated with genetic factors.

Hence such mood disorders ARE usually genetic, although they can result also from physical trauma (mostly to the brain, possibly some related hormonal systems). They are truly a "physical disorder" and not simply a "mental disorder".

One of the curiosities for me was in the difference in how I experience a "depressive cycle" from before having gone clear in comparison with after I had gone clear. That marked a MAJOR improvement in life experience itself. And is utterly incapable of description to others.



I understand your attitude on drugs.

Drugs should not be used casually. However, for some things, they are necessary.

One of the problems with "genetic diversity" is that bodies are commonly not "optimal". Occasionally bodies have structural deficiencies as a result of their genetic composition.

Some such deficiencies like "sickle cell anemia" eventually result in the death of the person afflicted. In situations like mood disorders the effects need not necessarily be terminal, although untreated, m.a.d.'s are at greater risk than the general population. Not much to do but treat the disorders.

In both instances given as examples, sickle cell anemia & mood disorders, the genetic factors tend to persist in the overall population because they have positive benefits to the gene pool taken as a whole. Although it is "sucks to be you" for the individual who is affected.


Mark A. Baker
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I hope I won't offend anyone else by saying this, but I agree with Kevin on this. Yes, drugs are better avoided. But there are, as Kev says, people who do not respond to the other things. So there really is a place for the meds, even though it's far from ideal.

I think it's very interesting, Kev, that people taking SSRIs doesn't seem to impact their sessions with you. See, if I were to ask about something like that in CofS, they'd A) not be able to answer and B) if they did, they'd have to tell a "shore story".
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Depends what you mean by "depression".

However, the physical structures in the body which regulate the physical expression of mood are themselves regulated by genes. As a result differences in genetic coding can produce variable "effectiveness" of the various mood systems.


Occasional occurrences of depression are not likely resulting from a genetic base.

On the otherhand, recurrent depression is a commonly associated with genetic factors.

Hence such mood disorders ARE usually genetic, although they can result also from physical trauma (mostly to the brain, possibly some related hormonal systems). They are truly a "physical disorder" and not simply a "mental disorder".

One of the curiosities for me was in the difference in how I experience a "depressive cycle" from before having gone clear in comparison with after I had gone clear. That marked a MAJOR improvement in life experience itself. And is utterly incapable of description to others.





Drugs should not be used casually. However, for some things, they are necessary.

One of the problems with "genetic diversity" is that bodies are commonly not "optimal". Occasionally bodies have structural deficiencies as a result of their genetic composition.

Some such deficiencies like "sickle cell anemia" eventually result in the death of the person afflicted. In situations like mood disorders the effects need not necessarily be terminal, although untreated, m.a.d.'s are at greater risk than the general population. Not much to do but treat the disorders.

In both instances given as examples, sickle cell anemia & mood disorders, the genetic factors tend to persist in the overall population because they have positive benefits to the gene pool taken as a whole. Although it is "sucks to be you" for the individual who is affected.


Mark A. Baker

Terrific post. I know some church members would be upset by this opinion and then point out that "function monitors structure" but, maybe so, but some people- MANY people- need more help in overcoming the physical than auditing can sometimes give.

My mom took psychiatric meds. They truly helped her. After many false starts and much heartache, she ended up taking Lithium regularly and she felt it helped her. I never ever gave her a bad time about it, even when I was on staff and fairly party line. Toward the end of her life, in hospice, she stopped taking it. She felt she didn't need it. The hospice workers did not understand this or agree but they didn't push and she stopped it a few weeks before she died. I think she knew quite well what she needed and didn't, at least re the Lithium.
 

gomorrhan

Gold Meritorious Patron
I hope I won't offend anyone else by saying this, but I agree with Kevin on this. Yes, drugs are better avoided. But there are, as Kev says, people who do not respond to the other things. So there really is a place for the meds, even though it's far from ideal.

I think it's very interesting, Kev, that people taking SSRIs doesn't seem to impact their sessions with you. See, if I were to ask about something like that in CofS, they'd A) not be able to answer and B) if they did, they'd have to tell a "shore story".
I took my queue from Dr. Gerbode, who pointed out that he'd had success with people using SSRIs and even Lithium. Personally, if they are there, and interested in handling something, that means to me that they are ready to go. It might get rough, but I believe the old mantra that doing something is better than doing nothing.
 
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