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How long does it take to feel "normal" again after attesting to clear or OT?

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
To me, any discussion of "Release", "Clear" and "OT" is like:

"Is it true that Goldilocks found the papa bear's porridge too hot? How come the baby bear's porridge was just right?" ... and so forth.

A "Clear" (which doesn't exist) still has "mental image pictures" (which don't exist) but the "reactive charge" (which doesn't exist) has been "erased" (a function that doesn't exist).

And the three bears' cabin doesn't exist either.
 

phenomanon

Canyon
Good morning, Hats!

That's a terrific quote. Intriguing, for sure.

You know me, I don't go in for all the past life stuff, but animal behavior and how it relates to humans and spirit is right up my alley.

I like to keep things simple, and humans and animals have far more in common than most people are willing to admit. You won't find many Christians promoting the fact that Genesis describes how God first offered various animals to Adam as mates, which Adam refused. :giggle: Was it sense of humor on God's part? Was sense of humor even created yet? Or was the more obvious true, that God regarded Adam as an animal, but Adam turned out to be a separate species of animal and otherwise, there was no real difference?

I've dealt extensively with mildly to severely autistic children and adults. I see it as a bit of a brain glitch, an ability to mirror (sometimes scarily well), but without the inherent/automatic social comprehension that goes with it. The more severe the autism, the less and less a person can comprehend or even care about others' feelings or actions. Some autistic persons realize the effect on others afterward. They're just comprehending the cues too late. Others can't comprehend (or care) about others at all. There's a bit difference in scale.

Among other things, those that can't comprehend or empathize with others also blame them for their feelings and assign their feelings to them. They feel hate and a desire to destroy, but they will say that YOU feel that way toward them. Then they will act out in such a hateful, nasty way that you lose patience and feel angry and then wonder - or even believe - that the feelings they assigned to you might actually be true?

Think animals. If some beast is in pain and aggressively attacks you, it could be for anything. You moved your hand too fast, you stepped over a line, you turned your back, whatever. The beast comes at you and you bristle up, get ready to defend, or you run away. If you get ready to defend, the beast claims "you caused it to attack," or "you acted hateful and aggressive toward it." If you run away, then you did something wrong and had something to hide. In the beast's world, it's always you that is wrong. There's never a thought about its own feelings or actions or why. They automatically change the sequence in which things happen, too. The other person is always to blame, always started it, blah blah.

There's lots of people like that. Whether severe autism or some other malady, they assign their own feelings and actions to others.
This thread has come alive. Thanks, both of you. I relate to Hat's posts , and appreciate the thought that has gone into them.
I doubt that I will ever throw off scn training. I spot it in my thinking and in my attitudes toward others every day.
That is not a bad thing, considering who I was being when I got in, 68 years ago. ( 1950 ). LOL!
 

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
To me, any discussion of "Release", "Clear" and "OT" is like:

"Is it true that Goldilocks found the papa bear's porridge too hot? How come the baby bear's porridge was just right?" ... and so forth.

A "Clear" (which doesn't exist) still has "mental image pictures" (which don't exist) but the "reactive charge" (which doesn't exist) has been "erased" (a function that doesn't exist).

And the three bears' cabin doesn't exist either.
Well, the Greek and Roman gods don't exist either, but people still study the mythology.

Just because it's not true doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand what it was supposed to be about.
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Well, the Greek and Roman gods don't exist either, but people still study the mythology.

Just because it's not true doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand what it was supposed to be about.
I have no objection with studying Greek gods. fairy tales, flat Earth or Hubbard's weird ideas, but no sane person studies these thinking it's useful.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I have no objection with studying Greek gods. fairy tales, flat Earth or Hubbard's weird ideas, but no sane person studies these thinking it's useful.

Exactly!

There is however one extremely useful aspect of studying Scientology that is seldom given the credit it deserves.

It's the incredibly valuable "ability attained" upon successfully clay demo-ing stable datums & axioms that are preposterously absurd lies.

Doing so elevates a Scientologist upscale to the tone level of "Covert Imagination".

It's where the Scientologist has (unbeknownst to themselves) big wins on their own creative skills, whilst thinking they are having big wins on discovering the secrets of the universe.

.
 

RogerB

Crusader
Does that mean a clear still had pictures but any reaction to them were "Handled" and would not affect the pc? The idea was now recovered unconscious reactive memories were now stored into the "Analytical Mind" after auditing, which now did not affect the pc in a reactive manner. You have access to them at will, but they were no longer abberrative?
Yep . . .

Years and years ago I too pondered this question. And years and years later, I came to the answer that the stuff addressed and successfully handled was converted from being "unknown, below awareness and out of your control" to then being "under your knowing control and volition."

Indeed, Alan Walter the charged case material that has to be handled as simply "Life-Force particles that are submerged, unknown to you and out of your control."
 

DagwoodGum

Squirreling Dervish
Yep . . .

Years and years ago I too pondered this question. And years and years later, I came to the answer that the stuff addressed and successfully handled was converted from being "unknown, below awareness and out of your control" to then being "under your knowing control and volition."

Indeed, Alan Walter the charged case material that has to be handled as simply "Life-Force particles that are submerged, unknown to you and out of your control."
I remember when NED for OT's, NOTS and whatever else the latest, greatest forms of exorcism was called when it hit the shelves in Scientology, that the purported EP was that one's body would become clear as in transparent.
Whether that was the official EP or just the rumored EP I don't know.
I just remember it took a long time for anyone to complete the level and even then I thought "you fucking liar, you can't see through your body like it's made of cellophane, suck ass!"
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
To me, any discussion of "Release", "Clear" and "OT" is like:

"Is it true that Goldilocks found the papa bear's porridge too hot? How come the baby bear's porridge was just right?" ... and so forth.

A "Clear" (which doesn't exist) still has "mental image pictures" (which don't exist) but the "reactive charge" (which doesn't exist) has been "erased" (a function that doesn't exist).

And the three bears' cabin doesn't exist either.
.

I loved your post, except the very last sentence.

"...and the three bears' cabin doesn't exist either"
.
Because, this is Scientology---so the line should have read:

"...and the fifteen million bears' cabin doesn't exist either".
.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I remember when NED for OT's, NOTS and whatever else the latest, greatest forms of exorcism was called when it hit the shelves in Scientology, that the purported EP was that one's body would become clear as in transparent.
Whether that was the official EP or just the rumored EP I don't know.
I just remember it took a long time for anyone to complete the level and even then I thought "you fucking liar, you can't see through your body like it's made of cellophane, suck ass!"
Well, it was there in the NOTs materials. Red on white. I read it.

Like everything else Scientology claims, promises and guarantees--if you clay demo it you get a total balance of mass and insignificance.
 

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
Normal...whatev....

7c04a4f0278701378982005056a9545d
 

RogerB

Crusader
I remember when NED for OT's, NOTS and whatever else the latest, greatest forms of exorcism was called when it hit the shelves in Scientology, that the purported EP was that one's body would become clear as in transparent.
Whether that was the official EP or just the rumored EP I don't know.
I just remember it took a long time for anyone to complete the level and even then I thought "you fucking liar, you can't see through your body like it's made of cellophane, suck ass!"
Ya, as HH so rightly says . . . and it is such an important point, that it blew the humor right out of him! :p , , , it is in the Red on White. I too read it.

And I'd done 12 years on S/NOTs by the time I reconnected to Alan, and got the right and proper tech on the issue of one's spiritual connections.

When Alan found out I'd spent so long on Hubbard's wild goose chase to nowhere, he asked me: "Did you ever get to having your body go transparent?"

"No I had not, but then I was not really handling body thetans," I replied. "I was handling spiritual connections way off in the spiritual realm, not ones stuck in/on or about the body."
 

DagwoodGum

Squirreling Dervish
Ya, as HH so rightly says . . . and it is such an important point, that it blew the humor right out of him! :p , , , it is in the Red on White. I too read it.

And I'd done 12 years on S/NOTs by the time I reconnected to Alan, and got the right and proper tech on the issue of one's spiritual connections.

When Alan found out I'd spent so long on Hubbard's wild goose chase to nowhere, he asked me: "Did you ever get to having your body go transparent?"

"No I had not, but then I was not really handling body thetans," I replied. "I was handling spiritual connections way off in the spiritual realm, not ones stuck in/on or about the body."
As I was not to that level I had not read it but it somehow came to me as verbal data even though I was one foot in and one foot out of Scientology at the time.
Hubbard must have laughed himself into a double hernia when people started to attest to being able to see through their transparent body.
But later he probably thought "hey, wait a minute, if it's true then all of these people are going to be more OT than me" and he had to get going on the level himself.
But he clearly didn't want to make any OT's, in part, because he'd never be able to keep them out of the backroom meetings between he, the dwarf and whatever sycophantic miscreants he had already in the management pipeline. He'd never be able to keep secrets!
Spiritual connections however sounds highly feasible and had it been run as such it might have done someone some good but none of that trying to as-is non-existent body goblins as that turned into an exercise in futility if there ever was one.
 

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
I remember when NED for OT's, NOTS and whatever else the latest, greatest forms of exorcism was called when it hit the shelves in Scientology, that the purported EP was that one's body would become clear as in transparent.
Whether that was the official EP or just the rumored EP I don't know.
I saw that too. For a while there was an actual NOTs pack on the web. That's now been taken down, but here's a Freezone version that mentions it. Search for the word "transparent."

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/NOTs/aa5b.html

I've been doing some reading about hypnosis, and this sounds to me like hypnotic phenomena, as does seeing BT's in the first place. From the "Arons Depth Scale" of hypnosis levels:

Stage 5: This is considered the start of somnambulism. You get cool stuff like complete anesthesia and experience the ability to neither feel discomfort or touch. A lot of different pain control techniques can be used in this stage as well. You can also experience what is called Positive Hallucinations which means you can see and hear things which do not actually exist. You can also experience real Age Regression in this state and not just remembering the past.​
Stage 6: This is the next level of Profound Somnambulism. You can experience Negative hallucinations which means you won’t see or hear things that actually do exist.
http://healnowtherapyhypnosis.blogspot.com/2012/03/different-depths-of-hypnosis.html
 

renegade

Silver Meritorious Patron
Yep . . .

Years and years ago I too pondered this question. And years and years later, I came to the answer that the stuff addressed and successfully handled was converted from being "unknown, below awareness and out of your control" to then being "under your knowing control and volition."

Indeed, Alan Walter the charged case material that has to be handled as simply "Life-Force particles that are submerged, unknown to you and out of your control."
Many years of studying Dianetics, I attended a party where some were smoking Marijuana and setting off illegal fireworks. It got raided by cops/detectives who were doing surveillance.

Some arrests were made. During the process of obtaining everyone's ID and running checks on outstanding warrants, "Bob" stealthily walked away while an altercation with another party-goer was happening.

Like a Ninja, he quietly climbed a 6 foot fence and ran away, then called someone to come pick him up after the cops were gone.

I asked him, how did you not get rattled and pull this off without any fear, go unnoticed and think on your feet like that? He said to watch the movie "Ip Man" and that's the best explanation he could give me! Lol!

But seriously, this guy was a career criminal, and was absolutely fearless, like he had no reactive mind and nothing bothered him. He also had no conscience either. In a similar way, I heard that Navy Seals get trained not to have any fear and be able to sit in tree tops not thinking anything so as not to draw attention by their own vibrations or thinking.

On another thread here, there was mention of removing the "Fight or Flight" mechanism as being what going clear may be like. "Bob" was like that, like he did not have this mechanism.

Any thoughts about this?
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
As I was not to that level I had not read it but it somehow came to me as verbal data even though I was one foot in and one foot out of Scientology at the time.
Hubbard must have laughed himself into a double hernia when people started to attest to being able to see through their transparent body.
Although that "ability attained" was in the NOTS materials, I don't believe that it was ever used as the "EP" of the level which one attested to at the examiner.

I think it parallels many such oddities on the grade chart. For example, I have often mentioned Hubbard's ludicrous "Ls" lie:

"In the 1970's Dr. Hubbard invented a series of processes called "The L's". And he, himself, C/Sed the pc folders of all the world's eager public who journeyed to the Apollo in order to pay one hundred thousand dollars or more (up to $1,000 per hour) for the auditing sessions. Ron boasted in all of the Flag promotional materials that: "...when Ron was CSing the Ls he would never let someone leave the ship unless they were stably exterior with full perceptionn and were able to maintain it."

It was in the "L" Rundown promo. But nobody in their right mind was attesting to being "stably exterior with full perception and able to maintain it". LOL.

If that was anything other the Hyperbolic Hubbardian Hucksterology, the "attest cycle" would have consisted of the examiner writing down a random 25 digit number and then asking the Pre-OT to exteriorize and go LOOK AT the underside of the chair he is seated in--to read the numbers written on the piece of paper taped there.

In Scientology, that would been considered a "HIGH CRIME" and "SUPPRESSIVE ACT" and "INVALIDATION OF THE STATE OF OT".

It's invalidating the state of OT to ask any Operating Thetan to show an example of how they "Operate".

Think about that for just a moment!
Or...think about that for a billion years.

That's essentially the only single decision a Scientologist ever has to make.

.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
Although that "ability attained" was in the NOTS materials, I don't believe that it was ever used as the "EP" of the level which one attested to at the examiner.
Correct, AFAIK. That one has completed and met those "specs" would be determined by folder
examination and a series of "completion sessions" with a Class 9 review auditor. I never got that far.

Attest at examiner is a different wording. Not sure what that would be. Probably has changed a few
times over the years, depending on which way the winds were blowing at the time.

Authors of it all are probably being held incommunicado in The Hole at this time. :whistling:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Correct, AFAIK. That one has completed and met those "specs" would be determined by folder
examination and a series of "completion sessions" with a Class 9 review auditor. I never got that far.

Attest at examiner is a different wording. Not sure what that would be. Probably has changed a few
times over the years, depending on which way the winds were blowing at the time.

Authors of it all are probably being held incommunicado in The Hole at this time. :whistling:
As far as I recall, the actual technical End Phenomena of OT VII was:

1. Has paid for the level.
2. Willing to attest to "Cause Over Life"
3. Willing to write an "acceptable" success story
4. Willing to pose for photo op with jumbo certificate held overhead.
5. Willing be pretend to be an OT that is Cause Over Life by looking deeply into peoples' eyes with a knowingness that says: "You really need to get on the level".
6. Willing to show up promptly, when ordered, to VIP briefings without suspecting it is a reg cycle.
.
 
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ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
"As far as I recall, the actual technical End Phenomena of OT VII" . . . con't
7. Willing to forgo "enjoying the win" and the "glow" of attesting to OT7.
8. Willing to immediately get on a plane for the Freewinds.
9. Willing to pay for OT 8 before leaving the premises.
10. Willing to endure 6 to 16 intensives of grueling, invalidative sec checks post-attest,
possibly on the base, possibly on the ship.

11. If no joy on #7-10, maybe do a folder inspection to see if the attest was honest or
a re-do is in order.

Nothing is ever easy or clear.

###
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
7. Willing to forgo "enjoying the win" and the "glow" of attesting to OT7.
8. Willing to immediately get on a plane for the Freewinds.
9. Willing to pay for OT 8 before leaving the premises.
10. Willing to endure 6 to 16 intensives of grueling, invalidative sec checks post-attest,
possibly on the base, possibly on the ship.

11. If no joy on #7-10, maybe do a folder inspection to see if the attest was honest or
a re-do is in order.

Nothing is ever easy or clear.

###
And why-oh-why (asks the bitter defrocked apostate) does "the being" attest to OT VII, having received all the OT levels over the top of crimes, high crimes and suppressive acts which now need to be sec-checked and "pulled"?

Per the tech they cannot make any case gain on OT VIII with those overts unhandled.

So how did they do OT III, IV, V, VI and VII and attain all the powers, if they had those overts?

Suddenly after attesting to "CAUSE OVER LIFE" (OT VII) they are not even cause over their own overts? Wasn't "overts" supposed to get handled on Grade II? And again just before getting invited to do OT I, II and III?

And how about the next round of "Eligibility" auditing to get an invitation to do OT III?

Nothing?

The OT VII is an overts case and can't be cause over it enough to just go in the next auditing session (OT VIII)???


EXPLANATION: The moment "the being" attests to OT VII, their overts case comes crashing down on them. Because their responsibility is so much greater than the day before they attested. So now in the previous 24 hours their responsibility has suddenly soared so high they are now AWARE of their evil acts. You see, friends, "TOTAL CAUSE OVER LIFE" does not mention "TOTAL CAUSE OVER EVIL".

So! OT VIIs cannot get case gain. NCG, right?

They simply can't go in another session without first spending many tens of thousands of REAL dollars on many tens of thousands of FAKE wholetrack overts.

SAMPLE: "Oh wow! I just remembered a time 392,392,927,028,917 years ago when I blew up an entire universe and murdered everyone. I just did it because I was so powerful as an OT that I needed some plus randomnity to occupy my attention units, so that I could have a game of trying to go on the run to avoid galactic process servers and criminal indictments, whilst staying on the move in my BlueBird Rocket-home. Now I see that i didn't need to murder everyone, I could have just taken responsibility instead for saving everyone in the universe, and now that I have gotten that overt off, I know with certainty that I can help Ron salvage this sector!"

At that point the Pre-OT's auditor smiles serenely and indicates the floating TA.

Yes, these are adults acting out these ludicrous lunacies, LOL.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
The moment "the being" attests to OT VII, their overts case comes crashing down on them. Because their responsibility is so much greater than the day before they attested. So now in the previous 24 hours their responsibility has suddenly soared so high they are now AWARE of their evil acts. You see, friends, "TOTAL CAUSE OVER LIFE" does not mention "TOTAL CAUSE OVER EVIL".
You're hired! You've got the gift.

For Senior CS International plus Senior Writer for Technology (until LRH returns).

Your contract is ready for your signature. :coolwink:
SAMPLE: "Oh wow! I just remembered a time 392,392,927,028,917 years ago when I blew up an entire universe and murdered everyone.
I kid you not.

I had a former friend (OT5) who got caught "looking" at critical websites. He got sec checked at AOLA. Told me he ran
back to an incident when he "blew up a planet" and that blew his urges to look at critical websites. (Why do most all
threatening and desperate chains end with blowing up a planet and millions of souls?)

Got his ethics in. Disconnected from me, of course.

Last I saw he did Super Power and the Prosperity Rundown at Flag in consecutive years.

Not on OT 7 yet. Been many years. Oh, well. :shrug:
"...when Ron was CSing the Ls he would never let someone leave the ship unless they were stably exterior with full perception and were able to maintain it."
I've know a few of the most processed and trained people in the world.​
Including some wealthy (money is no object wealthy) Scientology royalty.
No one got that or can do that.
This is true.​
Lisbeth Salander​
 
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