How many Sea Org members are there?

Discussion in 'David Miscavige and Current Management' started by TheOriginalBigBlue, Feb 5, 2016.

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  1. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    In the thread about Monique Rathbun’s legal team this post brought up the question of how many Sea Org members there might be now?

    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...r-legal-team&p=1087128&viewfull=1#post1087128

    We started to compile a list of orgs with ballpark estimates and Mick suggested that we might crowd source the info.

    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...r-legal-team&p=1087258&viewfull=1#post1087258

    I am starting this as a separate thread for that purpose. Please feel free to fine tune the list as you wish:

    INT Base …………………….............…190
    CMO INT ...................................50
    RTC ..........................................10
    Golden Era Studios .....................30
    ABLE INT ..................................50
    WISE INT ..................................50
    INT Base Estates ........................30

    Flag CMO ……………………………..……….20
    Flag Management ……………….………195
    SMI ............................................5
    Flag Service Org ………………….......300
    Flag Estates ………….…………………….200
    Flag Misc. ……………………………………240
    Freewinds ………………………………......40

    CMO PAC ……………………............…..40
    OSA INT PAC ……………….............…70
    CLO WUS …………………..............…100
    In Comm …………………….........…….. 40
    Celebrity Center LA ……............…100
    AOLA …………………....................…150
    ASHO ………………...................……150
    LA Org …………...................……….100
    Bridge Publications ………….......…..40
    PAC Estates ………………………………….50
    PAC Misc. ……………………………………..50


    Saint Hill ……………..................….200
    CLO EU ………………...................…150
    AOSH EU ……………............………..150
    NEP …………………….........……………….50
    CLO ANZO ……………..…………………….75
    AOSH ANZO ………………………………….75
    CLO AF ………………… ……………………..20
    CLO EUS ………………………………………..50
    CLO Italy (if it still exists) …………….
    CLO Russia (if it still exists) …………
    CLO LATAM ……………………………………50
    CLO Canada ………………………………….50

    TOTAL: ……………………………………..3170
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
  2. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Not that this would add very many SO members, but are SMI INT, ABLE INT, and WISE INT SO Orgs?

    I joined the SO in 1988 with the SMI INT Expansion Office in Clearwater, but there were only about 5 of us in that particular office back then.

    Also, need to add the SO members at the INT base, like GOLD, RTC, etc.
     
  3. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I made some adjustments to the list in the OP.
     
  4. PirateAndBum

    PirateAndBum Gold Meritorious Patron

    Oh hell no! There are over 8 million scilons. At least 5% of scilons are in the SO so that means that for sure without a shadow of a doubt there are at minimum 400,000 SO members. You doubt me? You have never seen such numbers? harumpf I say. The vast majority are OT XIV and are operating without bodies. These are the true SO force at work. It has been estimated that DM himself has thousands attached to him. That's why he's so darn prickly. He's not finished OT VII yet and the OT XIV's drive him nuts with all the product officering. Maybe now you'll understand why he's so PTP'd and irate and all. The few OT XV's out there have definite plans for planetary salvage. Unfortunately they slipped into the next universe over and haven't reported stats in a while and we think they've found a planet they like better based on the last evals received by telepathic transmission via the Marcabian resistance underground relay station in the outer Ort belt.
     
  5. Cat Daddy

    Cat Daddy Silver Meritorious Patron

    That Guy

    photo_about_3.jpg
     
  6. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    In LA there's the HGB, the Hollywood Guarantee Building. When I was there in the early 90s, it housed "Upper Middle Management," like OSA Int, CMO IXU, WISE Int, SMI Int, ABLE Int, IHELP Int, Flag Command Bureau, Flag Bureaux, Int Training Org, HGB Estates. Bridge was at that echelon, but not housed there, although some of their staff came for study.

    I have no idea how many staff there are now in the HGB. In the early 90s there were over 700. I have a list of 687 of them here:
    http://fzglobal.org/hgbstaff1994.htm

    Paul
     
  7. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    My time for editing the OP has expired so I will post a revised list here. Again, this is all guess work.

    Paul - Here is your list from the early 90s:

    http://fzglobal.org/hgbstaff1994.htm

    Unspecified 5
    ABLE 18
    BPI 71
    c/o Snr HCO 2
    CMO IXU 68
    CMO PAC 1
    CST 1
    FB 149
    FCB 30
    HGB Estates 32
    INCOMM 32
    Int Finance Off 7
    ITO 84
    LCI 1
    OSA Int 132
    SMI 16
    Spec 2
    WISE Int 30
    Total 681

    What is CST and FCB? Is LCI ...LRH Comm Int?
    _____________________________________
    INT (Gilman Hot Springs)
    INT Base …………………….............…190
    RTC ..........................................10
    Golden Era Studios .....................30
    INT Base Estates ........................30

    FlAG BASE (Florida)
    Flag CMO ……………………………..……….20
    Flag Bureau ……........………….………195
    Flag Service Org ………………….......300
    Flag Estates ………….…………………….200
    Flag Misc. ……………………………………240
    Freewinds ………………………………......40

    HGB (Los Angeles)
    CMO INT …………………….......………..70
    CMO PAC ……………………..……………..15
    OSA INT .…………………….....…….…132
    ABLE INT ……………………........……….35
    WISE INT …………………….......……….40
    SMI ……………………………….......……..16
    Snr. HCO ……………………….……………..5
    FCB ……………………………….......……..30
    INT Finance Office …………...………….7
    INT Training Org ………….…………….85
    LCI …………………………………….......…..1
    HGB Estates ………………………………..30

    BIG BLUE (Los Angeles)
    CLO WUS …………………..............…150
    In Comm …………………….........…….. 35
    AOLA …………………....................…150
    ASHO ………………...................……150
    LA Org …………...................……….100
    Bridge Publications …………..…….…..75
    PAC Estates ………………………………….50
    PAC Misc. ……………………………………..50

    SAINT HILL
    Saint Hill England……………………….185
    Saint Hill Estates …………………………15

    CELEBRITY CENTRE
    Celebrity Center Los Angeles ..…100
    Celebrity Center Dusseldorf …….…15
    Celebrity Center Florence ……………15
    Celebrity Center Las Vegas .……….15
    Celebrity Center London ………..……15
    Celebrity Center Munich …………..….15
    Celebrity Center Nashville ……………15
    Celebrity Center New York ……………15
    Celebrity Center Paris …………………..15
    Celebrity Center Vienna ……….……..15

    CLO EU ………………...................…150
    AOSH EU ……………............………..150
    NEP …………………….........……………….50
    CLO ANZO ……………..…………………….75
    AOSH ANZO ………………………………….75
    CLO AF ………………… ……………………..20
    CLO EUS ………………………………………..50
    CLO Italy (if it still exists) …………….
    CLO Russia (if it still exists) …………
    CLO LATAM ……………………………………50
    CLO Canada ………………………………….50

    TOTAL: ……………………………………..3586

    3586 @ 65. per week (30. pay, 35. meals) = 3380. per year each or $12,120, 680. total per year.

    3586 @ 140. per week (70. pay, 70. meals) = 7280 per year each or $26,106,080. total per year. If I assume (wild guess) that is divided among 40,000 Scientologists the average is $652.65 per year. I don't think ASI Memberships or "Donations" typically go towards staff so that would need to come out of services revenues unless they are forced to dip into reserves.

    This does not include other expenses so the minimum cost to support 3586 SO staff is probably between 15 - 30 million USD per year.
     
  8. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    CST = Church of Spiritual Technology = Archives
    FCB = Flag Command Bureaux = the local command level in the HGB, contained the CO FCB and her immediate staff (Communicator, MAA etc). FCB nominally ran all those orgs I listed in my original post like FB and WISE Int, except OSA Int who answered directly to WDC OSA (supposedly).

    LCI as you say, but I think there was an LCI office, again with a small staff like Communicator etc.

    Before someone says that CST wasn't based in the HGC, remember that list was a list I created and maintained to help me on my post of Staff Courses Sup; it wasn't some HCO personnel list.

    -----

    Last I heard the joint was renamed ILO for Int Liaison Office, which matched its stated aim. Doesn't match reality since not that many people at Int are on post (I believe), but it's nearer the mark than keeping "Flag" in the name.

    Paul
     
  9. exsomessenger

    exsomessenger Patron Meritorious

    I also noted a few missing "orgs" CMO EU, CMO GOLD. CMO pac had less than 15 and CMO IXU had maybe 25 total. I was also in the Sea Org at the FLB in 1988. CST had a total of 23 staff. thanks for trying to figure it out.
     
  10. BunnySkull

    BunnySkull Silver Meritorious Patron

    I've been trying to get accurate numbers on this for a long time. I think I've started two or three threads over the years asking but they get one reply or two and then fade off.

    It seems the only data available comes from people who left in the 1990's, trying to get real numbers/ data from the last ten years has been impossible for me. (Estimates and guesses based on past experience not included)

    I'd love on the LA or Clearwater critics to stand outside of the orgs for a day or two with a counter to really get an idea of the numbers, but that's a lot to ask.

    Finding out the real numbers of SO (or even public) would be very telling and is probably the reason such information is now so difficult to come by. I think the decimation of the ranks would be shocking, and the SO mostly survives on immigrant labor from the Eastern Bloc and South America, a few 3rd gens who don't usually last too long, along with some old timers/lifers.
     
  11. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Is Security still under Estates?

    Here is the latest edit:

    INT (Gilman Hot Springs)
    INT Base ……………………..................…170
    RTC ...............................................10
    CMO Gold ………………………................…20
    Golden Era Studios ..........................30
    INT Base Estates .............................30

    FlAG BASE (Florida)
    Flag CMO ……………………………......……….20
    Flag Management ……………….....………195
    Flag Service Org …………………...........300
    Flag Estates ………….………………...…….200
    Flag Misc. …………………………………....…240
    Freewinds ………………………………..........40

    HGB (Los Angeles)
    CSI (Church of Spiritual Technology)…23
    CMO IXU (Int Extension Unit)…………...25
    CMO PAC …………………………………..........10
    OSA INT .…………………………............…132
    ABLE INT ……………………………..............35
    WISE INT ……………………….............…….40
    SMI ……………………………….............……..16
    Snr. HCO ……………………….......……………..5
    ILO (Int Liaison Office) ……………………..30
    INT Finance Office ……………….........…….7
    INT Training Org ……………………..……….85
    LCI (LRH Comm Int)……………………….....1
    HGB Estates ……………….....………………..30

    BIG BLUE (Los Angeles)
    CLO WUS ………………….................…150
    In Comm ……………………............…….. 35
    AOLA ………………….......................…150
    ASHO ………………......................……150
    LA Org …………......................……….100
    Bridge Publications ………….....…….…..75
    PAC Estates ………………………...………….50
    PAC Misc. …………………………...…………..50

    SAINT HILL
    Saint Hill England………………………….185
    Saint Hill Estates ……………………….……15

    CELEBRITY CENTRE
    Celebrity Center Los Angeles …….…100
    Celebrity Center Dusseldorf ……………15
    Celebrity Center Florence ………………15
    Celebrity Center Las Vegas …………….15
    Celebrity Center London …………………15
    Celebrity Center Munich ………………….15
    Celebrity Center Nashville ………………15
    Celebrity Center New York ………………15
    Celebrity Center Paris ……………………..15
    Celebrity Center Vienna …………………..15

    CMO EU …………………………............…..30
    CLO EU ………………......................…150
    AOSH EU ……………...............………..150
    NEP …………………….........……...………….50
    CLO ANZO ……………..…………...………….75
    AOSH ANZO ………………………..………….75
    CLO AF …………………....……………………..20
    CLO EUS ………………………………….……..50
    CLO Italy (if it still exists) …………….
    CLO Russia (if it still exists) …………
    CLO LATAM ……………………………..………50
    CLO Canada ……………………………..…….50

    TOTAL: ………………………………..……..3589
     
  12. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I'm inclined to agree with your assessment. Tory did a video of the crew leaving the HGB to go across the street to the bus several years ago and I think there were only about 30 people. Some seemed of advanced years "so I don't think it was parents going to see kids". Maybe they have ongoing bus schedules during the day but unless they live and eat in the HGB it shouldn't be too hard to get a fix on the traffic. I was always surprised at how admin sections tended to get top heavy in relation to tech. The old 7 people to supervise one guy digging a hole kinda thing but for all their efficiency they sure love their paper work.

    I think the foreign workers are a wild card also.

    http://tonyortega.org/2016/01/13/do...scientologys-reliance-on-cheap-foreign-labor/

    How does my list match up to yours?
     
  13. freethinker

    freethinker Crusader

    In 2009 Scientology reported approx 5000.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Org
     
  14. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    A lot has happened since 2009. Even if we assume that the "official" statistics aren't inflated both the quantity and quality could have degraded significantly. Part of the reason I am interested in establishing a base figure is to estimate the cost of maintaining the complement. If we assume that there are 5000 then at the irreducible cost of $3.00 per day for meals and $10.00 per week for pay, that would cost $1615. per year per staff, or $8,075,000.00 per year total.

    That is a significant fixed cost for any organization in decline.

    In my personal experience I would estimate the turnover rate was conservatively about 10% per year over a matter of years. If there are between 3500 to 5000 then they could feasibly be losing and having to replace 350 to 500 people per year.

    According to this list of R-1 Visa Petitions from Tony Ortega's site, between 2009-2015 there were 3447 petitions or 574 per year. This would seem to support a replacement rate of 10%+ for a complement of 5000 but these are not necessarily all Sea Org placements.


    Visas2.jpg
     
  15. freethinker

    freethinker Crusader

    You seem to be a pretty good math guy but I have a tendency to believe that there are SO that may go a long while without getting paid. I know of an ex SO whose grand mother had been on the RPF for 15 years and probably still is.

    The savings on manual labor alone make up for the 8 million above. They never call outside for sewage removal. They do there own pest management. I'll bet they get rice and beans at a volume discount. And I know they get orgs to pay some of there staff so despite the large figure you put up it's tiny compared to what they save not using professional anything and doing it in-house.

    Scientology has the tech for stretching a buck around the world and leaving a trail of misery behind.

    They send out missions to get people to go to Flag and Asho and I'm sure they skim that. I think Flag used to take in 1-2 million a week
     
  16. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yes. I like to say when people are cheap...people will be treated cheaply.

    Its a false savings. Here is another way of working the math. If we use a conservative estimate of 3500 Sea Org members and a 10% turnover of 350 per year then there would be a complete turnover every 10 years. 5% at 175 per year is 20 years and 2.5% at 87.5 is a complete turnover since 1976.

    By the most conservative estimate they must have turned over at least 3500 people since 1976. Thats only 2.5 people out of every 100. The numbers of Ex-Sea Org must be huge, or the original figures were never as big as they seem. In essence they are steadily creating a pool of people who know what it is like and able to express their disappointment.

    Bad will has a very real cost that must be backed into the equation.
     
  17. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Here is a thought. Although it might be more fruitful for the case of public orgs, obtaining some, 'closer to the inside of the bubble OF THE SEA ORG ORGS' numbers for staff could possibly be obtained from UTR members and or recent departures. There would probably be some concern by such individuals about not sharing the information openly on a public forum as they might feel it would lead to them being no longer anonymous.

    So would you TOBB be interested in receiving such information as private messages, and over time and a little compiling of corroborating numbers those numbers could be a parallel list and tally.
    And just off the top of my head, Chuck Beatty, Mick Wenlock and Karen de la Carriere as well as Tory Christman come to mind as knowing who are recent 'outs' to contact and may help reduce the staleness of data and also narrow the margin of error.

    PS. this could also apply to public orgs , with some of the sources, based on their movement through different orgs and contacts therein, having data on both Sea Org Orgs and well as public orgs.

    Or I could just walk into all the orgs, Sea Ogre or not and take a quick photo of the org's organizing board that is totally up to date and on Policy....ah yah right...lol, with all the names properly attached on that plastic label stuff per 'scripture'

    ...just some random thoughts above.
     
  18. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I'm perfectly happy to have anyone edit this list and other people have worked on this long before me. I'm reluctant to try to set myself up as being responsible for it.

    I think the main point is to try to make a notation as to the validity or source of the information. Up to this point its pretty much just ball parked in order to establish a minimum base line. We have worked in and around these orgs and have a sense for what their complements might be. But they can go through extreme changes. A unit might get over manned and then someone comes in and transfers a bunch of people to where they can be better utilized or a unit might get neglected to a skeleton crew until there is a disaster and it gets beefed up. They might have 600 Russian Security Guards and Stress Test Table workers but we still have to count them.

    Anyone can PM me or anyone else on this but lets try to make a notation by the figure such as:

    High Muckety Muck Unit................30 (per anonymous PM Feb 7, 16)

    or

    High Muckety Muck Unit................30*

    *High Muckety Muck Unit (10 per anonymous PM Feb 7, 16) (30 per anonymous PM May 10, 17)
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  19. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    Some of these names I am familiar with, mostly because they were on the RPF when I was in 99 or 2000.

    These:

    John Aczel
    Fred Aiken
    Trish Allen
    Therese Alvarez
    Sally Anderson
    Ann Arnow
    Vince Bernal
    Steve Boyd
    Tom Brownell
    Kevin Bryan
    Patrice Bugelwicz
    Richard Crundall
    Bill and Maggie Denton (pretty sure they routed out)
    Richard Didcoate
    Anne Marie Dubeuil (I think she ended up at CCI)
    Renee Karaminaser (I think she ended up back at ITO)
    Dieter Egerer
    Trevor Eissenmann
    Ellen Farny (could have been Lynn, but I don't know for sure. Heavyset person)
    John Franczak
    Nancy and Hannes Gahwiler
    Omar Gousche
    Greg Gum (ended up at CC for a while in Security, not sure after that)
    Hubert Guntensperger
    Howie Gutfield

    ---

    Off staff:

    Al Baker
    Klaus Buchele
    Jennifer Flamand
    Terry Hammie
    Zane Hollingsworth
    Hiroko Hondo (not 100% sure on this one, but I think he is out. He went to RTC for a while, then left SO)

    ----

    Other notes:

    Ailon Barrom went to RTC
    Bob/Beth Brown - not sure what happened to them. Their child was injured in car accident (bad accident) in late 90's and needed 24/7 care
    Art Colliani is Int Clearance C/S at HGB. I think it is still CMO IXU post
    Alex Duvall is in PAC security
    Mitch Esterman is Class IX auditor for ITO
    Antonio Gueron is Class IX auditor for ITO
    Burt Joseph is Class IX auditor for AOLA


    ----------------

    I just finished through letter "J" and I am out of time. Try to do the rest another time.

    This information is up to 2004 when I left.


    Margaret Harder ended up at CCI
     
  20. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    The 150 staff at AOLA would be way too high, IMO.

    That is the most staff AOLA ever had in the 80s and was at a time AOLA had about 20 non-SO staff, mostly auditors and also delivered a lot of duplicate training and services also offered at ASHO, like the Class VIII course. When AOLA had 150 staff, it also had three HGCs and 12 OT1 starts per week.

    I've been by PAC a with Tory and the place was so quiet, very few SO or public around.

    AOLA SO is more likely between 80 to 120 at the absolute most. It was always near impossible to get the SO over that number - Flag and other organisations just ripped them off.

    Unless they're all just sitting around doing nothing, my estimate by the lack of public would put it closer to 80 or 90.

    It would be nice if someone more recently out could confirm.
     

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