How many Sea Org members are there?

Discussion in 'David Miscavige and Current Management' started by TheOriginalBigBlue, Feb 5, 2016.

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  1. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Several interesting points:
    In 2004 it seems the church quoted 1400 staff for Clearwater.
    In 2003 they paid $605,488. in property tax on Non-Religious property.

    http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/18/Tampabay/Scientology_s_town.shtml

    Scientology's town

    As Scientologists launch unprecedented expansion, downtown Clearwater's identity is at stake. A two-part special report

    By ROBERT FARLEY
Published July 18, 2004

    ///
    About 6,850 Scientology followers have moved to the Clearwater area, joining the church's 1,400 uniformed employees. It's a community that has grown 20 percent per year in the past decade, according to church tallies.
    ///
    The church paid property taxes of $605,488 last year, making it downtown's largest taxpayer, even with about two-thirds of its holdings tax exempt. Church property used for religious purposes, such as counseling, is tax exempt. Properties or portions of properties not used for religious purposes, such as restaurants and hotel rooms, are taxed.
    When Scientology opens its immense Flag Building, it largely will be off the tax rolls. But the Fort Harrison then will be converted fully to a hotel and will be taxed.
    ///
     
  2. Orglodyte 2

    Orglodyte 2 Patron with Honors

    Which would mean only 1000 Scientologists living there in 1994. They just can't help pulling statistics out from where the sun don't shine.
     
  3. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Scientology math. Requires a special level of awareness and perceptics to understand. Even if 1400 staff were correct in 2004, I won't be using these figures to revise the list.
     
  4. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    According to this interview of Paul Burkhart as of 2013 he estimates there are a total of about 2500 Sea Org members. I think this list should be revised downward to reflect that estimate but I will wait for further confirmation. It is possible numbers have been increased with R-1 Visas. I have reduced the number for INT Base as Paul indicated that little Int management is being done there now.

    http://tonyortega.org/2016/02/13/sc...ogists-fewer-than-20000-worldwide/#more-28552

    Rev 2/14/16

    INT (Gilman Hot Springs)
    INT Base …………………….....................................................…100
    RTC ..................................................................................10
    CMO Gold ………………………....................................................…20
    Golden Era Studios ..............................................................30
    INT Base Security ………………….................……………………………………15
    INT Base Estates .................................................................30

    FlAG BASE (Florida)
    Flag CMO ……………………………..........................................……….20
    Flag Service Org ……………………….......................................…..280
    Security ……………………………………......……………….……………..………….20
    Flag Estates ………….………………........................................…….200
    Flag Misc. ………………………………….........................................…240
    Freewinds ………………………………...............................................40

    HGB (Los Angeles)
    CSI (Church of Spiritual Technology)....................................…23
    CMO IXU (Int Extension Unit)………….......................................25
    CMO PAC …………………………………..............................................10
    OSA INT .………………………….................................................…132
    ED INT Office …………………………………..................................……….5
    Flag Command Bureau …………......................................181
    Author Services …………………………………..............................…………5
    Landlord Office …………………………………...............................……….40*
    ABLE INT ……………………………...................................................35
    WISE INT ………………………..................................................…….40
    SMI ……………………………….............….....................................…..16
    Snr. HCO ……………………….......……….....................................……..5
    ILO (Int Liaison Office) ………………….....................................…..30
    INT Finance Office ………………..............................................…….7
    ITO (INT Training Org) ……………………..….............................…….85
    LCI (LRH Comm Int)………………………...........................................1
    Security ……………………………………...........................................……4
    HGB Estates ………………...........................................………………..30

    BIG BLUE (Los Angeles)
    CLO WUS …………………........................................................…150
    INCOMM (International Network of Computer Organized ManageMent) …………………….................….................................................... 35
    AOLA ……………………………......................................…........……..…80*
    ASHO ………………..............................................................……150
    LA Org …………............................................................…..…….100
    Bridge Publications ………......................................….....…..….…..75
    Security ……………………………………..................................……………..10
    PAC Estates …………………………….........................................……….40

    PAC Misc. ………………………………….........................................……..45
    Hollywood Testing Center ………................................……………………5
    SMP (Scientology Media Productions) ……….....…………………………..…….5

    SAINT HILL
    Saint Hill England……………………...…......................................….185
    Saint Hill Estates …………………….........................................….……15

    CELEBRITY CENTRE
    Celebrity Center Los Angeles ……..........................................…100
    Celebrity Center Dusseldorf …….........................................………15
    Celebrity Center Florence …………....…......................................…15
    Celebrity Center Las Vegas ……….........................................…….15
    Celebrity Center London …………….........................................……15
    Celebrity Center Munich ……………........................................…….15
    Celebrity Center Nashville ………….........................................……15
    Celebrity Center New York ………….........................................……15
    Celebrity Center Paris ………………….........................................…..15
    Celebrity Center Vienna ……………....…...................................…..15

    CMO EU ………………………….....................................................…..30
    CLO EU (Continental Liaison Office)……………...........................…150
    AOSH EU ……………...............……..........................................…..150
    NEP …………………….........……...…….........................................…….50
    CLO ANZO ……………..…………...……..........................................…….75
    AOSH ANZO ………………………..…......................................…....…….75
    CLO AF …………………....……………..........................................………..20
    CLO EUS …………………………………............................................……..50
    CLO Italy (if it still exists) …………….
    CLO Russia (if it still exists) …………
    CLO LATAM ……………………………..…..........................................……50
    CLO Canada ……………………………............................................…….50

    TOTAL: ………………………………..…..........................................…..3559

    *Landlord Office ………………………………………….40*
    Circa 2007 - http://tonyortega.org/2016/02/13/sc...ogists-fewer-than-20000-worldwide/#more-28552

    “All forty people in the Landlord Office had been part of it.

    Burkhart estimates that four or five thousand Scientologists are on staff, with about 2,500 of that in the Sea Org. Including non-staff “publics,” he would estimate Scientology’s worldwide total active membership between 10 and 20 thousand.
    _____
    *AOLA ……………………………………..…80*
    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...rs-are-there&p=1087714&viewfull=1#post1087714
    _____
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2016
  5. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thanks
    That February 13 2016 article if looked at carefully provides a good view about the internal info on the shelf on the 8th floor of the HGB. This CIC center is the inside look of stats and chaos in Scientology internationally.
     
  6. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Where and by whom did that rev 2/14/2016 breakdown come from?
     
  7. Knows

    Knows Gold Meritorious Patron

    My sources say that Scientology has shrunk down to less than 5,000 active members, including the slaves in the Sea Org and staff.

    Scientology is shrinking...and we helped!! :happydance::yes::clap:
     
  8. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Do your sources have UTR access to each of the over 11 thousand orgs missions and groups "org information centers" ? Are the numbers bigger or smaller than the OSA ' to be security checked' call in list?
    Speaking of lists does anyone know if there is a 'OSA useful idiots list' which can be used to sent a free subscription to tony Ortega's underground bunker mike finders blog and our home internet address here on ESMB?
    I THINK IT would be a great tool to assist OSA PR get out the most accurate and complete story of Scientology and might even make them happy. Happy is right next to "terrorized by the whole truth been known' isn't it?:biggrin:
     
  9. Gib

    Gib Crusader


    Just to be a smart ass, LOL

    The COS claims millions of members, why can't ex's claim less than 500? LOL

    neither provide proof which is scientology. :roflmao:
     
  10. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I can believe it. Where are the reports of crowded parking lots, crammed course rooms and overbooked auditing rooms, lines of people at bookstore cashiers? Are there throngs of people going in and out of Flag, Saint Hill and Big Blue? I haven't seen them and the occasional bussed in event attendance doesn't count.

    I put this list together just guessing at what might be a minimum complement for each org or unit and I think there is a lot of room to trim the numbers. The drone flyover of INT sure didn't look like there were 205 people there unless only 5 or 10 have cars and the rest were in doors. Maybe there used to be and they were relocated to the HGB or other locations and are now double counted.

    Even if you calculate the irreducible minimum carrying cost of 3559 people at $30. - $50. a week pay and $3.00 per day for beans, rice, powdered eggs and oatmeal it still adds up to a lot of fixed expense that must really hurt unless its bringing in a lot of money.

    We don't seem to be able to calculate numbers of public by averaging income because whales tilt the numbers too much so that could be anything.

    The Sea Org staff numbers could also be bolstered with people from 3rd world countries who are not well educated or trusted with posts that have a lot of responsibility so instead of a powerful effective crew it may be more like an army of security guards, groundskeepers and maids.

    Where they used to rely upon EPF and RPF crews for major construction they seem to use outside contractors now so maybe the crew numbers or in-house capability has declined.

    Another good question would be what their minimum annual expense to operate is and on average how much would each member need to contribute to sustain it without dipping into savings? They may not pay property tax on property that is exclusively for "religious" purposes but they do (or they are supposed to) pay tax on hotels and restaurants.

    These remote (not so secret) vaults or caves look very expensive and I don't see much resale value in them due to the quirky capital improvements. If they basically serve as PR props then they better generate a steady flow of cash.

    Somethings gotta give.
     
  11. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    No way ASHO had 150 staff....

    I'd say more like 20 or so....
     
  12. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    What time frame are you referring to?


    When I was there on HPCSC in the 1970s I would peek out at ASHO staff muster in the back parking lot on Temple street and see about 100.
    That's my estimate.
    If anyone else here was at ASHO in the 1970s and remembers a different number... please correct me.
     
  13. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    there are no sea org members. the sea org does not exist legally,

    only in the minds of so called sea org members. LOL
     
  14. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    I was there around 1995 to 1999. I couldn't say I saw more than around a dozen or so staff....? Just counting reg area and SHSBC area.....
     
  15. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    There could be a lot more back lines staff. Early 80s I think between ASHO Day and Foundation there were around 100+ but I'm inclined to agree that it is probably much smaller now and that is why they combined the two orgs. Unless someone can provide better figures I'm revising ASHO down to 75.

    I'm also revising INT Base down from 100 to 75 due to lack of activity and vehicles from the drone flyover, though I expect there are even less.

    I'm adding Secret Bases with total estimates of 25 on minimum security and estates personnel.

    SO Count.jpg

    *Landlord Office ………………………………………….40*
    Circa 2007 - http://tonyortega.org/2016/02/13/sc...ogists-fewer-than-20000-worldwide/#more-28552

    “All forty people in the Landlord Office had been part of it.

    Burkhart estimates that four or five thousand Scientologists are on staff, with about 2,500 of that in the Sea Org. Including non-staff “publics,” he would estimate Scientology’s worldwide total active membership between 10 and 20 thousand.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2016
  16. Karen#1

    Karen#1 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thank you for these lists.

    INT Base (north of Highway 79) and Gold Base (South of Highway 79 have at least 300-400 staff combined.

    Gold including Cine has 150 Sea Org members approx.
    Although they had put a hold on more Sea Org going up to the base, in the last year or 2 they have recruited youngsters who have gone up there swelling their numbers.


    There is no such thing as CMO Gold. It was disbanded YEARS ago.
    The Flag Land Base has 1200 to 1500 Sea Org members

    Los Angeles has at least 1000 Sea Org members, more in the range of 1250.

    These numbers are based on info I receive.
     
  17. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thank you Karen. I'm inclined to go with your estimates considering your access to current sources. Just to be on the conservative end I'm using your high end figures.

    SO Count 10-25-16  V2.jpg
     
  18. Karen#1

    Karen#1 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Original Big Blue ~~ Note that there are 100 waiting in line to leave 365 days a year in

    1) Los Angeles
    2) Flag Land Base.

    Unknown how many wait in line in other areas.

    They can sometimes take 1 year to route out while the Sea org use them for construction work for no pay and cite that they do not have enough Confessional auditors to do the procedure i.e. *to find their crimes.*:eyeroll::eyeroll::eyeroll::eyeroll::eyeroll:

    Asking to leave makes the subject the lowest of the low looked down as scum.
    Why do they sweat it out and not just blow? Well actually, many do, even now.
    Others are handcuffed because of the emotional blackmail of DISCONNECTION forever from their close and immediate family.
     
  19. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    I've seen staff muster outside the Supar Pawhas building at Flag several times......while protesting there.

    I never tried to do a count ....or even thought of doing a count....

    But looking back at those times....(last year) I'd say about 80 or so staff.....if that.
     
  20. Karen#1

    Karen#1 Gold Meritorious Patron


    That would be the number of staff for the Super Power Building, one division of the Flag Land Base only.
     

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