How many Sea Org members are there?

Discussion in 'David Miscavige and Current Management' started by TheOriginalBigBlue, Feb 5, 2016.

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  1. Karen#1

    Karen#1 Gold Meritorious Patron

    When I had access to International Stats in the Incomm Computers mid to late 1980s there were 5000 Sea Org members world wide.

    The real WOW in this thread is there are less Sea Org Members or the statistic is running flat and level even down 30+ years later.

    Un-precedent expansion indeed !
     
  2. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Someone previously mentioned on ESMB that when they were there, there were a lot of people in the tunnels under Big Blue being processed for routing out and that it took many months. I don't know that they are living there like the RPF in the 70s but it may be being used for waiting or course rooms or some such just to keep them from being seen by the general staff population.

    Even in the old days routing out was usually about 3 days but then there were still the stories like Jesse Prince where they just hauled him off and locked him up for months.

    The only reason to not just walk out the door is to try to maintain good standing by "properly" routing out. The amazing thing is that there would still be so many people who would put up with that in this day and age.

    I have tried to calculate the turnover rate before and even by the most conservative estimates I calculate that it must be at least 10%. So if you have 4500 Sea Org members then that is 450 routing out every year and a complete statistical turnover every 10 years. If that is even close then what kinds of people are replenishing the ranks at a rate of 450 per year?
     
  3. CommunicatorIC

    CommunicatorIC @IndieScieNews on Twitter

    My understanding is the replacements come from:

    (1) Second and Third generation Scientologists. Kids who were raised in Scientology, went to Scientology schools (if at all), and never really considered going to college or doing anything else.

    (2) Foreigners, primarily from Russia, Eastern Europe, Taiwan, etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
  4. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I believe DM quoted 5000 as an official figure but I'm not sure when that was. I do think he would be more inclined to inflate the figures instead of understating them in order to avoid being accused of exaggerating. So right there I'd back out somewhere between 500 to a 1000 to account for the ol PR Personality false stat push factor.

    I also expect the numbers could be jacked using young people from distressed circumstances or people on religious visas who desperately want to be in the US. The whole nature of the work force could be very different from past periods. This theory would be in keeping with the idea that the organization has devolved from a service delivery operation to a Real Estate Holding Company.
     
  5. Enthetan

    Enthetan Mutant

    When I was at Flag in the 80's, I had heard that there were a bunch of people who were spending a long time doing mestwork because they wanted to route out. This caused me to decide to just blow. Shortly thereafter, I did the routing out process at a FOLO (just going there to do the steps on the routing out process, not doing mestwork). I ultimately did the routing out sec check in the HGC, paying for it. Everybody was happy.
     
  6. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Involuntary servitutude.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

    What are the US and State attorneys doing about it?

    What do Trump and Clinton have to say about it?

    I say WTF !! OUTRIGHT breach of the 13th Amendment

    Impeach both SCOTUS and current POTUS.
    WHERE CNN, FOX and the rest of the media? WTF?
     
  7. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron


    I expect there is little they can do about people who are brainwashed into putting up with this. However, using threat of Disconnection should fall under extortion and racketeering and given the elaborate and derogatory usage of the term "SP - Suppressive Person", this should fall under libel. Hiring people with a stated policy on routing out that should only require a few days and then deviating from that by a matter of weeks or months should fall under discrimination, mental abuse or false imprisonment.

    Routing out as it is now practiced appears to be mostly designed to prevent leaving or intimidate into silence:

    http://www.lermanet.com/garyweber/

    https://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/“return-to-route-out-properly”/

    If anyone can find the Flag Order on Routing Out could you please post a link to it?
     
  8. Knows

    Knows Gold Meritorious Patron

    How many Sea Org Members are there?

    Not enough to clear a building....let alone a planet....

    THANK YOU JESUS!!:happydance::happydance:
     
  9. Karen#1

    Karen#1 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Involuntary servitutude. <sigh>
    They can get away with it as long as they have RELIGIOUS TAX EXEMPTION.
    They compare themselves with Monks and Nuns and other strict discipline Church lifestyles and the courts are reluctant to interfere in
    1st amendment issues.
    The one year route out has also come up in Tampa Bay Times and Pat Haney, the OSA PR at the Flag Land Base defended it as "religious procedure necessary for terminating a serious oath of religious commitment. <barf> <puke>

    In the Texas court of Law Wallace Jefferson, David Miscavige lawyer said that the Sea Org does not exist. He said they have no address, no stationary, no bank accounts (LIAR< What about the bank account called SOR "Sea Org Reserves"?) He said it was just a "Religious Commitment."
    https://scientologymoneyproject.com...nt-legally-exist-how-does-it-run-scientology/
     
  10. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Maybe someone should ask him what Pauline Chatterton and Maureen Brigatti were signing on October 23, 1988. Are they Sea Org members?
    Oh, hell how dense of me, I should ask David Miscavige that question.
    Does anyone know about England's trust and contract laws?
     
  11. Karen#1

    Karen#1 Gold Meritorious Patron

    The Sea Org is just a *Religious Commitment* LOL. A pledge to be locked up, given sleep deprivation, no pay, harsh discipline, dunked in water and humiliated, confessional masturbations read out to entire crew, disconnected from outside world and family because one "Volunteered" it !
    Sworn under oath to be truthful, in writing, submitted to the Court ..read this text !
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  12. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    By this logic, non-Sea Org orgs should be applying the same measures. Probably the greatest distinction is staff have their own housing, transportation, cell phones, computers and their associations with people who can help them or miss them are not as restricted.

    Once a person becomes dependent they are easier to manipulate.

    Non-Sea Org staff are also not as indoctrinated and would be less likely to physically prevent someone from leaving.

    Then there are other issues like withheld passports, etc.

    Sea Org bases like Flag and Big Blue are large and have areas where people can be sequestered out of view and out of earshot.

    I had a lot of cash when I went in but was flat broke when I left. You use up your savings on essentials like gas and auto insurance until you can't afford to keep a vehicle. By the time you leave there are very few options.

    This stuff really pisses me off. Religious status or not they don't have the right to prevent someone from leaving. That is just as much a right as any right the Church claims.

    Now for a little something to decompress...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPYc8KlTlNI
     
  13. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron


    Sounds like a Mafia by any other name.
     
  14. CommunicatorIC

    CommunicatorIC @IndieScieNews on Twitter

    At least today, it is not involuntary servitude or false imprisonment because nobody is being physically held against their will or physically forced to work. Yes, I know that there are tales that in the past people were physically held against their will. When was the most recent such alleged case? I suspect this is like the issue of coerced abortions, where as Tony Ortega has noted the last one no later than 2010.

    [One thing I've found frustrating over the years is that I've heard about all of these cases about physical restraint, but nobody ever went to law enforcement with a charge of false imprisonment. What is law enforcement supposed to do without a complaining party? Seriously, people are going to bitch and complain about the government not doing anything when the government received no complaints from anyone who was allegedly falsely imprisoned? Where everything is hearsay? And often anonymous hearsay? Seriously?]

    Today at least, people can blow, people can walk out. Indeed, I've seen numerous people on ESMB say they blew.

    Staying in because one wants to "stay in good graces" with the Church of Scientology is not involuntary servitude

    Sadly, staying in because one doesn't want to blow, be declared, and be disconnected from all of one's family and friends is not involuntary servitude. As long as one is not physically prevented from walking out, it is not involuntary servitude.

    I don't doubt that the Church of Scientology's status as a religion in the U.S., the First Amendment, and the analogy of the SO to various Catholic, etc., religious orders is helpful to the COS, but it: (a) is not necessary as long as there is no physical restraint; and (b) would not protect or insulate the COS if it did physically restrain somebody against their will.
     
  15. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    I think restricting the "involuntary" to physical force or threat of such is exactly what the conman his alter-ego ' the church of Scientology, and it hired substitute alter egos (lawyers), extant as it prohibits freedom on many other levels
    These levels include the right to exist the right to act and of the right to possess
    We could see this problem hiding (probably overlooked as a possibility, or so outragious as to be itself absurd to in burden the constition with) in the 1st ammendment.
    What I am trying to address here is force. Star wars force or quantum force( really the latter is just lighthearted jesting and I will leave conspiracies religio and other important matters like politics out at the door in my back pack labeled magic tricks.)

    Items such as undue influence extorsion, coercion or any form of substituting one party AIMS to those of the victim does lead to and perpetuate involuntary servitude.
    Arggh more to come after battery power is recovered...
    It is really related to wishes of those and per the commonly recognized characteristics and methods of control these Sea Org members find themselves in when the wish to leave arises they are already under very unbalanced forces. The innate personality from wish the desire to leave comes forth is already imbedded in a sea of subjegation.
    How they were enticed, manipulated and had controls of Scientology most certainly is worthy of being discovered and tallied to illustrate the degree of extant involuntary ( pressured ) service.
    Fraud, misrepresentation,emotional entrapment, nutritional,sleep deprivations and a lot more too lengthy to list for this thread certainly bring into question the degree of voluntary decision and action.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
  16. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I share CommunicatorIC's frustration at the lack of solid legal actions based on illegal restraint or coercion. This may speak to the effectiveness of the brainwashing and coercion.

    Somehow I expect that if all the conversations between people who wanted to leave and the people who were charged with motivating them to stay, were recorded and made available to the public and courts things would be very different.

    It is also policy, when a Sea Org member is removed from post to assign them to the DPF (Deck Project Force) aka EPF (Estates Project Force) where they generally do physical labor most of the day and follow a strict study schedule in the evening. I have seen these work hours extended to absurd levels and study cut completely so a reliable schedule should not be assumed. They would be working in units under close supervision. If there are 100 people routing out in LA and 100 in Florida at any given time then this could also account for the beefed up security presence. Just having a lot of security personnel may be intimidating enough to never need to use them. Pay is reduced, probably by at least half. We hear reports that pay is now around $30. - $50. per week so EPF probably get $15. - $25. per week but I often got nothing or maybe $3. - $10. per week even on full time post so anything is possible. These people may not even have enough for a pay phone call assuming they were permitted the time and freedom to make one and in-house calls could be monitored or only made in the presence of a handler.

    If a documentary crew were able to film and record the conditions of these people who are trying to route out I think the result would be damning.

    I have a pretty good idea of what they are telling these people but it sure would be nice to have some of them update us here. And that's the other thing. If they are processing these people by the hundreds then where are they? Is the procedure so effective that they don't even post on ESMB? It took me a good year to decompress after routing out so I get that but they have been at this for decades.
     

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