Hubbard's Fall of Man

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Queenmab, Nov 3, 2017.

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  1. Queenmab

    Queenmab Patron

    Scientology's cosmos shares this common trait with the Abrahamic religions, it contains at least two Falls. There's the cateclysm of Zenu when our ancient selves were subjected to brainwashing before being left to rot on Tygiac. But, prior to this, and more fundamental, there is the primordial fall of our godlike selves, the Thetans. We possessed complete control over mass, energy, space, and time. However, as a means of entertainment the Thetans created new worlds for themselves in which to live, and by those worlds they were ultimately ensnared. They fell into a dream from which they could not wake. The Thetans had paradise, and they lost it.
    So, what was their sin? It wasn't pride and envy (After all, they were already gods). It was not defiance or rebellion against righteous authority; it was more of a blunder. It was, in fact, a blunder born of boredom. I think Hubbard may have possessed a profound fear and contempt of the nihilism toward which this boredom of his gods points. At any rate, Scientology shares this common trait with many world religions, the notion of an aboriginal fall from a perfect world into a world darkness, fear, confusion, suffering and death.
  2. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Actually, I think that is a fairly cogent OP. Thetans had ability but not the experience to know how to control or keep it. And they needed a game so they conveniently forgot what the left hand was doing. I'm not saying I necessarily believe all this but the concepts and comparisons seem close enough.

    Of course this tried and true program requires a savior or messiah.

    Curiously, Scientology teaches that you are essentially your own god and you shouldn't need to be told what to do - and then demands total submission.

    "Teegeeack" - very important to get that spelling right.
  3. Queenmab

    Queenmab Patron

    Thanks for the spelling correction, OBB. :)

    It's this need for a game that I find so fascinating. Those original Thetans (Hubbard, so far as I know, provides no previous history) possessed a flaw. They were prone to a kind of fatal distraction. If the ultimate promise of Scientology is a return to this particular garden, is it really so promising after all? At the end of the day, the kind of absolute power Hubbard entertains strikes me as rather tedious. If the gods were bored, then our land of shadows must have been preferable to them. If that's the case, then we are not fallen after all; we are exactly where we must be. Perhaps this presentiment, that we hang between heaven and hell, precedes and informs the content of our myths.
  4. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    Hubbard said all illness was due to PTSness and this could be handled by Scientology yet people who knew him say he was chronically ill most of his life.

    He said Scientologists didn't need medicines yet he privately took medicines himself.

    He told us how wonderful it was to fly around the universe and have OT abilities yet people who knew him say he had no special abilities himself and his greatest wish was to go exterior, which he never attained.

    He told us he had researched OT levels way past OT VIII yet he died raving about BTs being everywhere, which shows he didn't even complete OT VII himself.

    To sum up, he was full of shit so why are you even pondering over things he said about the fall of man? He wouldn't know anything about it unless he'd read it somewhere else.
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  5. Queenmab

    Queenmab Patron

    Hubbard was a truly fucked up individual. Nevertheless, he managed to produce a bizarre narrative that thousands of people have been willing to embrace as gospel. This interests me. I also find it ironic that Scientology itself appears to have been, for Hubbard, a world he fashioned for himself and that, like the Thetans of old, he was taken in by his own creation.
    Additionally, I think there are a number of post enlightenment conclusions about the nature of reality which Hubbard found extremely objectionable. Not least among these were the realizations that we humans are merely animals, that our psychology and consciousness is comprehensible, and that our emotional states, however intensely felt, do not point to a supernatural state of affairs.
  6. Helena Handbasket

    Helena Handbasket Gold Meritorious Patron

    It's nice to have godlike powers but it can be awfully boring. If you can do anything, anywhere, at any time then there's nothing to be excited about -- every (successful) day is like every other (successful) day.

    So enters the desire for a game -- setting limitations on yourself so that you can work on overcoming them, perhaps failing, and always requiring effort. The earthly world we live in is full of challenges, catastrophes, and sorrows. Maybe we can overcome them and maybe we can't. But it's usually going to be interesting.

    Leaving the game is tough. We have all participated in creating MEST, which is the playing field for us thetans. As long as our contributions to the MEST universe persist, we cannot leave. But we can "unmock" our creations with advanced technology.

    There is an extremely advanced state called OMNI where we can override the laws of the physical universe and do what we want. There is very little data on the internet about it, but it seems to be like a "smart bomb" on '80's-style video games -- you push the smart bomb button and all the attacking enemies get blown up at once. But you are only allowed a smart bomb once in a while; it's not something you can do on a minute-to-minute basis. And someone who uses the OMNI state "uses up" their entitlement; you can't be OMNI all the time.

    Just my $.02.

  7. Demented Hubbatd

    Demented Hubbatd Patron with Honors

    In my opinion, the closest religions to Scientology are the shamanistic religions, including native American system of beliefs Just like Scientology, they believe in powerful spirits capable of many supernatural activities (telekinesis, teleporting, love magic etc.). These religions do not have a Creator; instead they assert that the spirits are eternal and always existed in some form. They do not have the e-meter, but this distinction is minor.

    If Hubbard didn't lie about his study of the native American religion, I would say that he borrowed much of the theta material from it..
  8. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Hubbard's comments greatest curse is idleness, hubbard&f=false
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  9. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I perceive LRH very much as a product of his times - between the age of Victorian seances, Theosophy, the advent of psychology and the intersection of science fiction. A belief system like Scientology could be predicted. Childhood's End portrayed mass spiritual evolution with alien meddling, the Jedi are virtually Sea Org members and indeed, the Sea Org played the throne room score at their events for a long time complete with sword bearing honor guard, way too long in my opinion.

    If you were going to sell a new religion in the 1950s you needed a new angle with more hooks than a Lady Gaga song. Once it built up momentum his ego took over and you weren't buying a spiced up Eastern philosophy anymore - you were buying his own personal fantasy.
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  10. Queenmab

    Queenmab Patron

    OMNI reminds me of the golden cap and flying monkeys from The Wizard of Oz. It points obliquely to a mysterious, overarching set of rules by which we are governed and by means of which, with secret knowledge, we can unlock power by manipulating the rules to our advantage. I suppose one of Hubbard's great tricks was to cloak what is essentially magic in the language of pseudoscience.
  11. Queenmab

    Queenmab Patron

  12. Queenmab

    Queenmab Patron

    Right, this lure of total freedom is itself a kind of trap. The very idea of such freedom, it seems to me, possesses a jejune quality. It reflects Hubbard's narcissism and its appeal speaks to a childish susceptibility to such narcissism in all of us. It's the snake oil Hubbard's selling. Yet, the architecture Hubbard builds for his followers is eerily and tragically similar to the behavior of an abusive spouse. The abused spouse like the SeaOrg member is required to forfeit virtually all self-determination. I think this too speaks to a fear of freedom, often described by existentialist thinkers, that is also very common. A healthy individual should find himself comfortably entailed with the lives of other people, especially with their loved ones. This includes a moral obligation to forgo one's selfish desires and make sacrifices out of love. However, we are each required to determine for ourselves (discover in ourselves?) the content of our values and preserve a core self in the face of inauthentic demands on our freedom. So, both total freedom and total submission must appear perverse to the mature individual.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
  13. Queenmab

    Queenmab Patron

    I'm afraid I know very little about Native American belief systems, but I find your insight very compelling.
  14. Gizmo

    Gizmo Rabble Rouser

    Oh, please, none of Hubbard's drivel merits conservation among sane people.
  15. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    For the exception of sociopaths, I think all people possess a willingness or are at least capable of making compromises or sacrifices for the greater good. Nations wouldn’t exist without it. LRH played the nuclear war end of days card very cleverly. There were other angles but maybe people today don’t understand how much this was at the forefront of people’s thinking in the 60s and 70s. This was when Scientology built up the solid following that has got it this far. We still see the back of their grey and balding heads at these Ideal Org openings. I seriously doubt it would have amounted to much if it started in the 80s. The nuclear threat was subsiding, or people were becoming more accustomed to having it in the background, and the kinds of titillating space opera LRH wove into his narrative was also common fare. Star Trek started in 1966 and ran for 3 seasons and the reruns never really stopped - all very old hat.

    More fundamentally, is the matter of group behavior where things like the coming ice age circa 1978 or global warming are used by an elite few to manipulate the masses. This kind of false flag stuff is detailed in The Art of War circa 300 BC but we never seem to learn. LRH had humanity pegged as herd creatures and he made a conscious practiced effort to not have a conscience. Society is not very well prepared to deal with people who are capable of that transition.

    Not only are people programmed to sacrifice but they are programmed to superimpose their sense of sacrifice onto others. Ayn Rand tried to explain this instinct and that it needs to be balanced. Demanding sacrifice isn’t just about somebody wanting somebody else’s stuff or productivity - it is millions of years of programming. How clever does a sociopath have to be to capitalize on this behavior? Scientologists believe that they own you, they own your family, your soul, your everything - you are only holding it in a trust, they just haven't made withdrawals on it yet. You have to think like that to be a recruiter or a reg - no room for doubt or hesitation. There's a whole lot of that going around.

    Hell was the original nuclear war pitch for religion and LRH repackaged it as a long dwindling spiral of degradation into MEST and unconsciousness.

    In 1963, three (UK, US, Soviet Union) of the four nuclear states and many non-nuclear states signed the Limited Test Ban Treaty, pledging to refrain from testing nuclear weapons in the atmosphere, underwater, or in outer space. The treaty permitted underground nuclear testing. France continued atmospheric testing until 1974, and China continued until 1980. Neither has signed the treaty.[1]
    Underground tests in the United States continued until 1992 (its last nuclear test), the Soviet Union until 1990, the United Kingdom until 1991, and both China and France until 1996. In signing the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty in 1996, these states have pledged to discontinue all nuclear testing; the treaty has not yet entered into force because of failure to be ratified by eight countries. Non-signatories India and Pakistan last tested nuclear weapons in 1998. North Korea conducted nuclear tests in 2006, 2009, 2013, 2016, and 2017. The most recent confirmed nuclear test occurred in September 2017 in North Korea.
  16. Queenmab

    Queenmab Patron

    It's the psychology of belief that I find so interesting. For example, the biblical Fall is all about moral authority; it presupposes a moral code that exists outside the individual. God is a personification of this set of ideals, and we have our being within the context of God's creation of the whole universe. Adam and Eve disobey a rule given to them directly by God, and in doing so provoke His displeasure, and they and we are punished. This scheme parallels the experience
    most of us had in relation to our parents as small children. This cultivation within individuals and collectively within societies of a moral code that is supposed to be objective is a prominent function of religion historically. I find it interesting that Hubbard's Fall doesn't involve a moral lapse per se. The Thetans stumbled and fell. I'm not sure how this initial error might be characterized under the rubric of Hubbard's Dynamics, but the Dynamics are not, it seems to me, explicitly present in Hubbard's account of the ancient Thetans fall into ruin (I could be wrong on this point). In fact, Hubbard's Dynamics, a sort of half baked Herbert Spencer, appear to derive from a wholly separate train of thought having something to do with human evolution. The Dynamics appear inelegantly patched into the broader Scientology universe. What do creatures who are themselves immortal, for instance, have to do with survival?
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  17. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Hubbard always circles around to “ethics”. Saying thetans needed a game is too simple. As soon as there are more than one thetan you have the potential for conflict, opposing goals, competition - even if it is for the same space or one thetan’s mock up bumps into another thetan’s mock up.

    Now you have thetans plotting against each other and trying to trick each other into limiting their own ability by agreeing with the physical universe and getting stuck in bodies or getting too wrapped up in their own virtual video games, etc.

    That kind of trickery is an overt but how can one commit an overt against another thetan if it can’t be harmed? Just by believing another thetan can be harmed is an admission to oneself that as a thetan you too can be harmed so the agreement becomes thetans are not immortal and the goal is to survive when supposedly a thetan can’t do anything else but survive.

    So now we have to go back and find these original postulates that we can be destroyed and the overts where we first tried to do that. So what, we cognite that there is no such thing as ethics?

    I’m just trying to explain the Scientology rational here. Seriously, what do we have to base any of this on? It’s all up for grabs.

    And as many have pointed out in this logic, if you get back to that original state - you still have other thetans who will have their own ideas on how things should be done so it is impossible to be completely omnipotent unless you get rid of everybody else or somehow make them absolutely subserviant. Which it seems is what LRH wanted to do because he didn’t want to be subject to anybody else’s will. Or maybe, now with trillions of years of experience we won't be naive newbie thetans and we will create the perfect harmonious collective. If the COS is any example of what that might look like I think I'll pass.

    And somebody still needs to explain where thetans come from in the first place. LRH said that the first barrier to study is thinking that you already know the subject. Well maybe knowing Scientology is the first barrier to understanding philosophy and life. After all of this I can now honestly say I don't know the answers and I don't have the solutions and I probably never will.
  18. Demented Hubbatd

    Demented Hubbatd Patron with Honors

    I do not know much about Native American religion, either, except for a few basic facts that I mentioned in my post. I also know that they smoke certain kinds of mushrooms to "communicate" with the spirits. That is much cheaper than to pay for the OT levels.
  19. Gizmo

    Gizmo Rabble Rouser

    scn offers nothing but a money stealing life crushing scam. Some want to investigate it & that reminds me of those who want to pet a Cobra.
  20. Demented Hubbatd

    Demented Hubbatd Patron with Honors

    Hubbard wrote that a thetan cannot be harmed, you're right about that. At the same time in his book, A History of Man, he described many ways of harming thetans, including electric discharges. In that book he also wrote that nuclear blast that "destroys half of a city" can kill a thetan as well.

    According to Hubbard, some thetans always existed, while the others were created by their peers. Some time ago I found an HCOB posted on the Internet with this silly ideas. It appears, this HCOB was removed, perhaps, because of the violation of copyrights.