I have a new opinion about ESMB

Discussion in 'Freezone, Independents, and Other Flavors of Scien' started by dexter gelfand, Nov 27, 2010.

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  1. dexter gelfand

    dexter gelfand Patron Meritorious

    Which is, very simply, that when the owner and leader of the forum makes statements like "Scientologists are fucking stupid" and shuts down the success story thread, what balance there was no longer is, and so I do not belong here anymore.

    After all, while I do not blindly buy in to the whole Church of Scientology or "KSW" package, I'm an auditor, I do good things for people by skillfully applying the techniques that I have seen to be valid, I hold my head up and make no apologies to anyone for that. I am open to inspecting any principles of Scientology and judging it for myself, on what I personally find to be their individual merits and workability, and the same goes for the techniques and principles developed and/or practiced by those who made contributions to these techniques and have split off in their own directions, even though I cannot agree when these people now claim that the whole of Scientology is invalid, or when anyone who ever has been a Scientologist in effect pronounces theirselves, me, my wife and friends, and others "fucking stupid" for being or having been a Scientologist. Alan Walters authored the L1C, and I'm sure, other valid pieces of tech, and was a Scientologist up until the Mission Holder Meetings in 1982, ran missions, and got large numbers of people into Scientology. How "fucking stupid" is Alan? A dear friend here on this forum has been vocal in declaring how great being audited by me in a Scientology org was for him, and still is, and yet now jumps onto the bandwagon of Emma's thread, endorsing this talk. Hypocrisy runs rampant here, now that Emma, the owner and leader of this forum, after being upset at a Scientologist, ranted as she has.

    I don't want to be misunderstood-Emma and I have privately expressed high levels of mutual affinity and respect, now and in the past, and this doesn't change that, and I've genuinely come to like many people on this forum whose views conflict with mine. But what message would it send for me to, by my presence here, appear to endorse a forum led by a person who states that "Scientologists are fucking stupid", when I value many Scientology techniques so highly, and continue to practice them? At best it is confusing, and at worse it makes me appear dishonest in my convictions about what I practice. And I am not the least bit dishonest about that.

    Short of Emma sincerely retracting her words, being in this environment is detrimental to my moving forward in my practice and doing what is important to me.

    Furthermore, given this shift in the political environment on ESMB, I think it would require more effort and work than I can justify spending my time on to try to maintain a worthwhile discussion.

    I hope everyone here will truly understand that I now take my leave without bad feelings towards anyone here, in fact I really appreciate all who engaged me in thoughtful and sincere conversation, shared interests and opinions, humor and friendliness. May the force be with you!:)

    Love to all,
    Dex
     
  2. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    I hope you will feel able to change your mind and come back, perhaps when things settle down (as they undoubtedly will).

    :yes:
     
  3. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Dex,

    I think you're a cool guy and a class act. I am glad you are reaching for something and it seems to me that you've gotten some real results.

    That having been said, I understand why Emma would write what she did. She was obviously frustrated and there has been some unholy contretempts in the FZ, both on this board and on others. Emma, oif course, would know about the ones here and I think she's seen stuff elsewhere. Was it wise for a forum owner to do an editorial like that? There's more than one school of thought on that. Wise or not, it is her board and that's probably the bottom line.

    Remember, she DID give props to various spinoffs and stuff. (I'm not being dismissive when I use the term "spinoffs". It's for lack of a better phrase. I'm tired and my neck feels a tad bit tense right now...) So that's one thing.

    Now, as to the success story thing, I hope that what I'm about to say here won't hurt any of my FZ friends, of whom Terril has been one for years. I never was a fan of it. A couple thoughts on this:

    Putting them on critical fora engenders resentment. There are people on OCMB, (where such posts also appeared), a.r.s., and ESMB who get mad when people just say they sorta kinda LIKE Scn, so you can imagine how they're gonna feel when they see a success story. Then there are people who don't get too excited or whatever when someone says they like Scn or are an indie or FZer but who also tend to find those stories distresing. And why? Well, for one, a lot of us were pushed into it when in CofS. I know these aren't CofS success stories but I think it kinda brings back memories.

    Another thing is that although Ems did (graciuosly) specifically invite some FZers here while also generally making others welcome and allowing them to post here, she's not involved with the FZ. She's criticized the FZ and FZers before here every now and again. Not often, but she has. Again, this is not an attempt to denigrate or minimize anyone, not the FZ or Emma or anyone else. But it does show that there are feelings that the forum owner has and that she's long been candid about them. IMO, if a forum owner is GONNA post, then this candor is the best thing. Either that, or just sit on Mt Olympus as some forum owners do.

    Here's the other thing about success stories: They aren't pruned or selected well enough. I have a feeling Terril may object to my saying this and I don't want to hurt him, but I have thought so for a while. Although I'm not so sure I'd recommend ANY success stories to be posted, I'd say that if I were to forward such, I'd be more selective as to which ones made it. I've read some that would sound weird to a Scientologist, much less someone who's either ditched it or never was into it. I personally would say that a sprinkling of them here and there would be the most I'd suggest and, as I say, I'm not so sure about that, even. But it would be better than a flood of unculled ones.

    I'm going to say something that is neither here nor there wrt anything you or Emma is doing. This is just Claire's rant. Ok? Bear with me. I love my FZ friends but I actually really really really dislike success stories. I have done some stuff with an FZ auditor in the past year. Part of my take from column A, column b dabblings. Liked what I did but I fucking CRINGED when my lovely friends would whip out the foolscap and pen. I just ain't down with that.

    Like I said, Emma has made some of her thoughts about the FZ known for quite some time. This can't be too big a surprise. And she's a lot gentler than, say, someone who'd repeatedly allow JPGs of a well known Free Zoner in a pimp suit on forum while admonishing people to "play nice". Even with the polarity that's going on now, this forum is far gentler and fairer to indies and FZers than any critical forum out there. Just remember that it IS a critical forum.

    And what other critical forum has FZ and Independent sub sections? We all know that I rarely tire of pointing that out to some of the more outspoken anti indie folks, well, it's something that I want to point out now to the FZers and Indies.

    All in all, it's fine and people here are good. We're better off with candor than with doublespeak.
     
  4. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Dex,

    This is an ex-Scientologist message board and you are not an ex-Scientologist.
    What did you expect anyway?
     
  5. LongTimeGone

    LongTimeGone Silver Meritorious Patron

    When I first came on board here I read the following, which is at the top of the message board.

    Meet other ex's. Share your experiences. Reunite with old friends.

    This message board is for ex Scientologists to freely discuss mutual experiences in Scientology. It covers such topics as L. Ron Hubbard, David Miscavige and current management, auditing and training, Ethics tech and its application, OSA, fair game, Clear & OT levels, Freewinds, and recovering from a cult experience.


    I was surprised to see the FZ represented here as I always considered them to BE scientologists who had abandoned the 'church'.

    The Freezone has its own sites and I cannot see that it has a role here where REAL exes would be prone to attack it. That can't be helpful to either side.

    I don't know what Emma had in mind when she created this site, but from the above it seems to me that admiring the Tech was not part of the plan.
    D.
     
  6. paradox

    paradox ab intra silentio vera

    /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ Truthspeak. No doublespeak.

    Ex-
    1 : out of : away from : outside of *excircle* *exclave*
    2 : without : lacking *exalate* *exalbuminous*
     
  7. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    But you'd not have been surprised has you read this:

    Who can post here?
    Anyone is free to post here whether you have been in scientology or not. It was first thought that the board should be limited to only those with a history in Scientology. But when considered more closely, it was realised that if you limit membership to only exes, you are shutting yourself off from a wealth if information from other areas.

    Many people who were never scientologists run excellent web sites, have been involved in litigation against the church, are experts in mind control or were members of different religious groups that treat it members similarly. The list goes on and on. Sometimes only a person who was never involved can see things with a clarity that an ex member cannot.


    I certainly do agree that ESMB's not a place for admiring the tech. Nor should it be. And, yes, FZers are ex CofS members who haven't left Scn. That's a good description.
     
  8. Anonycat

    Anonycat Crusader

    Thanks for speaking your mind on the change. I have observed the new freezone, and the evolution of the ex movement - if you will - and I can see how they need their own roost to carry on in. That opinion of mine does not take into account how I feel personally on those camps. I think all of us should be very thankful (I LOVE YOU) to Emma for making this place for us to share, grow, get through it, get informed, post kittens and tits, and be who we are. Oh, and bitch and moan.

    This is also the number one place to observe and to be a part of the ex movement, whatever that means to you. It's amazing that this place became what it is. All active members please place hand on back and firmly pat. That is obviously has made this place what it is.

    Personally, it feels to me that this is a great time for the freezone kindred to make a home on the webs. Really, you don't need ESMB if you can have something more suited to your interests and audience. Hey, even to your personal opinions. Here's a place that I've looked at, and I think it has great features. Blessings on your journey.

    http://www.proboards.com/
     
  9. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    I think you should change your nick to "I'm a sweetie pie".

    Cuz you are.

    :)
     
  10. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Using ESMB as a free marketing tool is no longer allowed.

    That is the only change.
     
  11. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill


    I don't agree, sorry. There are and have been FZ fora. For years.

    I think cross pollination's a good thing. That includes having one's beliefs criticized. In the long run, exposure to folks who've taken other routes is healthy. But then again, I think Democrats should post on Republican fora and Republicans should post on Democrat's fora. Without killing each other, I mean.

    We all have things to share. We've all got various pieces of the puzzle. I don't want to see separate drinking fountains. I want to see people who feel differently about things talking to each other.
     
  12. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation


    LOL ... (I am not so).

    :p
     
  13. Anonycat

    Anonycat Crusader

    As you know, the original format which has gone unchanged until now, is that many topics including freezone were acceptable. I bet she wrote that in when it was expected that somewhere between 1 - 2 freezoners would show up. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2010
  14. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Well then, let's just say you have your moments. And whether you do have 'em or not, you're AOK in my book.
     
  15. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Likewise.

    :happydance:
     
  16. Anonycat

    Anonycat Crusader

    Addendum:

    I'm not saying cross pollination isn't good - it is life. I personally feel that freezone should go get a life and not bitch about the growth goals of this site. Suck it up and stand on your own two feet, right?

    Why whine about an SP not holding up your needs? Show some wherewithal and make something as good or better yourself? Gee whizz.
     
  17. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    Dex, if you are picking and choosing amongst a variety of issues, rather than following them exactly as Hubbard stated, why insist on calling yourself a Scientologist? I seriously think you should look at that. I have no problem with you doing what you think is right, or analyzing things for yourself, but claiming the name of Scientologist IMO, is like a battered housewife staying loyal to her battered.
     
  18. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Well, they already do have their own fora. I don't think that the growth of the forum is the issue here. I think that it's just a bit difficult to come face to face with a public statement by a forum owner that's critical of what one happens to be involved in. And you know what? That's their growth cycle, maybe. Feedback like that is good for people and they wouldn't be getting such feedback were they to just go find a home elsewhere.
     
  19. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    What happened to your speech about accepting others' views and "granting beingness"?

    Was that just lip service?

    The Scientology FreeZone/Independent Scientology/Ron's Orgs section still exists.

    I thought Clears and OTs were supposed to have a high level of confront - was I mistaken?

    Are they just like ordinary people but with a Scientological-significance overlay?

    Oh well.
     
  20. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Yes, that is exactly what I was thinking when I said to Dex,"Flunk! TR zero start!"
     

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