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Discussion in 'Freezone, Independents, and Other Flavors of Scien' started by dexter gelfand, Nov 27, 2010.
So are you finished with your foray into Godwinism yet?
Mark A. Baker
Would you like swastikas with your Happiness Rundown?
Didn't you know ? Scientology allready existed before Hubbard discovered it LOL. He said so himself.
I don't believe that there are any religions that have been around any significant length of time that are the same as they originally were.
I wonder what Elijah would have thought about picking and choosing, yet the Jews and Christians have been doing this for MILLENNIA. Those religions are NOTHING LIKE what they were.
How is this not actually doublethink? Or a method of simply reducing cognitive dissonance (ala When Prophecy Fails, http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=504581&postcount=295) rather than dealing with the obvious cognitive inconsistency of the subject matter [scientology] itself directly?
Depends on the choices YOU make.
YOU are responsible for your own choices, not someone else.
Mark A. Baker
Hello all, thanks, everybody, for all the things you've expressed on this thread. In the past few days, this and other threads have enjoyed an explosion of witticisms that had us laughing out loud. I think that to raise donations for ESMB, someone should compile a "Best of ESMB Humor" e-book and sell it for $25 a pop.
I really have been very busy with holiday gatherings, enjoying the presence of my son for a month before he heads back east, auditing and other business, or else I would have replied sooner. As my wife will tell you, when I begin keystroking, 2 hours go by before I finish expressing myself, so I don't begin until I have that large a window of time.
Its very, very nice to experience all the expressions of support and camaraderie on this thread, and even the more critical views were thoughtfully expressed, and I could appreciate them, aside from one or 2 of "the usual suspects" (Hey Mick Wenlock, using the term "pathetic" in reference to my original post, as you intended, exhibits the way you like to present yourself. Congrats on that accomplishment.)
Regarding the speculation that I am upset with Emma, not true. We are quite friendly, respectful and appreciative of each other, and we have some great private conversations. It is obvious to me that her comments about "freezoners" were not pointed at me at all. As Emma said on another post, sometime back she let me know that of all the people practicing any form of Scientology, she respects me the most and holds me in high regard, and I think of her in comparable terms. She created this board because she has a big heart and felt a need to do something to help restore comfort and sanity to those traumatized by experience in and with the Church of Scientology, and possesses the courage and conviction to step up and put it there.
I'd like to try to make one point in particular. I've observed speculation, interpretation, surmisings, and some self-serving spins here and there throughout many replies on this thread. These aren't necessary or true, I simply and actually spoke the truth about how I see things. No upset with Emma, no disaffection with or for ESMB or anyone here. Over the course of my "2010 Freezone Convention Talk" thread, I got to appreciate so many here as people, regardless of their views about Scientology, and made friends with some who were only acquaintances before then-thank you for that!
But you must understand that for me auditing is very important, its a passion and my profession. To be a practicing auditor where the prevailing expressed opinion is "freezoners are stupid", and success stories are regarded as unwanted commercial propaganda, well that's like being a cattle rancher and being spotted in a vegetarian restaurant-that's hardly going to have a positive impact on my practice, y'know?
Frankly, I've been reflecting on how I've perhaps been a bit insensitive to the fact that there are a good number of people on ESMB who have been traumatized by their experience with the CoS to the point where the last thing they need to see is somebody promoting their practice of Scientology. To those people I sincerely apologize for my insensitivity, please understand I never meant to jangle you! That's one reason I've toned down my signature.
Also, its my personal opinion, having seen Terrill get bashed around for years by freezoners who decried him as a "non-standard squirrel" on other lists repeatedly many times, and always respond understatedly and gracefully, I think he's taken much more of a beating than was justified over his blunder, especially on his own freezone list. Terrill is clearly a good and decent man, who, apparently unlike the rest of us, screws up from time to time. I guess I'm being supportive because I've seen him attacked so many times by smaller minds on freezone lists. On top of all that, to have his success story thread locked off, strikes me as overkill. Before he aggravated Emma, I hadn't noticed any ESMBers protesting its existence.
As to Emma's comments about public infighting amongst freezoners, I'm not in denial. It happens, and it sticks in my craw every time. If you only knew all the effort I've expended on damage control over the past few years, lol! But to be fair, I've seen some pretty vicious epithets thrown around on this forum by some of the people who bitterly oppose Scientology, which I think is equally unpleasant. If you're going to hold Scientologists to a higher standard, that in itself is a contradiction to the repeatedly asserted idea thrown around on this forum that Scientology doesn't produce a higher standard of function and behavior. I say we agree to level the playing field, and set the bar a bit higher for all, equally.
Thanks for all the interest, and all the thoughtful replies, keep 'em coming!
who was that masked man?
plz doan take this the wrong way, but gfy
Sounds like a nicely done "op" then. :wink2:
Thanks for coming back and posting.
First of all, and I think you've know this all along, that my viewpoint is not the prevailing viewpoint on ESMB. It's just mine. Everyone has a different viewpiont about the tech and the Freezone etc, and these viewpoints are continually changing.
As for the success stories, does it really harm the FZ to not be able to post 2nd hand FZ Success stories on a mainly critical forum? Because to be honest, and a lot of people including FZ and FZ sympathetic folks have also expressed their feelings about them not really belonging here. Maybe there is a middle ground that can be reached. :confused2:
I quite liked the idea from Mark Baker that only first hand success stories are to be posted by the PC himself/herself and then we at least know they are real and not written under pressure and/or to avoid ethics. Then they can be discussed with the person himself and I think this would be a lot more real to anyone truly interested in finding for themselves if there is value in Scn processing. The only issue with this is that a person will risk having their wins "invalidated" by the peanut gallery.
I still do (after calming down over the weekend) feel that the way the SS were being posted and not challenged here on ESMB was just a marketing tool and wasn't a catalyst for discussion at all.
I for one hope you stay and keep posting. Don't let my little tantrum put you off your game.
You do more for the credibility of the FZ than just about anyone else so it would be a shame (for you and others) to see that vanish.
Just one more thing.
I'm particularly upset that your "I have a new opinion" thread got more views and replies that my "I have a new opinion" thread.
Damn Emma, first Tory and M&M now you and Dex, it doesn't get much better. Peace!!!
Terril has told me that he enjoys more than anything sharing success stories with others, but I'd never thought of the SS thread on ESMB as Terril's thread. Couldn't anyone post there?
I'd bet that many of the 2nd hand SS are from people that never go on ESMB...
and, I'd also bet that most people that hang out on ESMB will not have success stories to share...
I do think the idea that some are portraying that a lot of the SS stories which are posted are forced likely is not accurate...
I mean, if someone felt "coerced" to write a success story, it's not likely they would go on and on in great depth for paragraphs and pages about how fabulous an action it was and what great gains they had....
Yeah they could but nobody did. It was kinda Terril's territory.
Wanna know why I put it there in the first place?
Terril used to get a really hard time on OCMB about posting success stories. I didn't really have an opinion one way or another but I was disgusted at the photos and animated gifs that people posted of Terril. It was dehumanising. So as I was all about "sticking it up OCMB" (at the time ) I agreed to allow Terril to have his own SS thread after he approached me about it. At the time I thought the only people who'd ever visit ESMB were OCMB rejects and open minded FZers and that the population wouldn't exceed 100 max.
Things are very different now and if I could have seen into the future I may have thought twice about it.
That's kinda the point. Nobody can be questioned about them or asked to elaborate. They are pure advertising.
Well that's kinda the point too. Most folks don't feel "successful" about their time in Scn, although some will voice a win they had at one time in session etc.
It's not always the way. Fluffy wrote a post or two about how she was treated regarding SS in the FZ. She did feel pressured although I'm sure it wasn't to the same extend as have the Flag examiner bearing down on you
When I was in scientology, I hated success stories. I've only read that ESMB thread twice in the years I've been on ESMB. What I do like about ESMB is the interaction. If someone isn't willing to stand up to intellectual assault regarding their wins, maybe they don't need to post them.
If someone didn't come to ESMB to dialogue, share and learn, but just to post wins, then fuck 'em.
I didn't mind writing Success Stories, but I really hated it when "fresh meat" from Book 1 auditing were hit with the "Examiner" and then having a Success Story solicited.
I never read that Success Story thread.. Well, maybe I skimmed it now and then, when I had the mental resources to stand it.
Thing is.. Like CarmeloOrchards commented above.. I hated the damned Sucess Stories.. I hated the coersion and threath of 'ethics' to do them.. And I hated to have to listen to the very 'personal' contents of 'em.
I wrote some very 'toned down' ones myself. And I did get in 'trouble' for it too.
Erh.. So those 'stories' went uncontested in that thread.. I didn't contest them, coz' I didn't want to read 'em at all. Those were some strangers 'wins' of a personal nature. Not persons who was here to debate.. Not persons who was here to promote anything.
Maybe they knew Terril was posting it?
In fact that offended me even more.. Like they were 'coerced' into the cult's typical demand that you should give your 'OK to publish'?
Would you like to write a Success Story about how you are free to not have to write Success Stories now?