I simply have no words

[frhidden]

When my friend told me of her decision, I was pretty much dumb-struck. Over the course of the following 2 days, I listened to her spout off the usual laundry list of "Why the tech has to be saved for the universe. I cannot change the organization from the outside, I have to be inside to change it. Life is short, I want my life to mean something.."

When I reminded her of the deaths of almost ALL of our OT7 and OT8 friends...
When I reminded her of the unimaginable insanity of a "new OT8" for whom she had worked...
When I reminded her of how SCN had abandoned both her and me...
When I reminded her of how her marriage and her oldest son were destroyed by her first go-round in the SO...
When I reminded her of how SO Members had bad-mouthed her to me because she was Ex-SO and a "degraded being" ...

All she could answer was "There are two sides to every story..."

Say what you want, but when a person not only ignores fact, but THEIR OWN PERSONAL, FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE... that is Brain-washing.

Marjan,

If the lady is picking up this vibe from you (that you think she is brainwashed) then you are less likely to connect with her. My advice is to sort this out in your own mind first so that you accept that she has the right to her own decisions and accept that she may rejoin the SO. Then communicate this to her. Grant her the right and power to make this decision. That may then give her the space to change her mind. And even if she does rejoin, you may have helped her to create a space in her own mind so she can later change her decision. If she rejoins, think how she will feel the first time she witnesses or partakes in a crazy action.

Another approach altogether might be to communicate with her about the scientology technology changes introduced by Miscavage: six month checks, three swing FN's, etc. You may not agree with independent scientology but you might usefully play off independent scientology against the CofS flavoured scientology.

If you would like to talk any of this through on the phone, I am available. Ping me and I will give you my details: name, address and phone.

FRHIDDEN

 

[Nicole]

On Friday, I sang a concert in Munich, Germany. There I met with one of my dearest friends, a former Sea Org Member, who stood by my side during all the negative fall-out that I experienced due to my association with Scientology. This woman lost her job 6 times because of her association with me. She has been my best friend all these years.

She left the SO in 1982, and has been paying off around €180,000 in debt from her Freeloader, Tax problems and her OT Levels. She has lived under ENORMOUS pressure for the last 30 years. Her health is not good. Her marriage has been a shambles since I know her, but due to financial problems, they could never separate. Since founding her own business a few years ago, she has lost numerous large consulting contracts because of being a Scientologist.

On Friday, she informed me, even after everything that she has experienced; after witnessing everything that happened to me; after dealing with OSA, IAS, and the corrupted CC Network for ALL THESE YEARS.... she was going to get a divorce in the summer and move to Copenhagen and join the Sea Organization once again.

I was stunned. I was horrified. I was speechless.

"How could you possibly ignore EVERYTHING that you have experienced over the last 30 years? How could you pretend that NONE of that happened? How can you look me in the eye and tell me 'Yes but things have changed, now?'" I asked her?

I told my friend, "I love you dearly. Nobody wanted you to be happy more than me... but I CANNOT ACCEPT OR SUPPORT THIS DECISION, not in any way. I cannot sit here and talk small talk with you, when I know that you are about to throw away the few years that you have remaining by signing up for the SO again. I simply cannot."

Dear readers here on the forum, I am sorry to puke all of this out, on all of you. But today, I had to stop a friendship of more than 16 years. My heart is broken for my friend, who remains willfully blind to everything that occurred in our lives.

If that is not "brainwashed" then I don't know what is.

Thanks for listening.
Mark

A part of me can understand her very good.. The wish to go back, a wish of going home, the wish to go on with the Scientology life. It is an addiction... Hubbard created a mind control monster. A Monster that wants to destroy our life, like every other drug would do.

It seems she has lost some real friends (I don't mean you) and contacts after her divorce. :confused2:

Friends and contacts outside Scientology are a good help to stay away from the Cult. They show us the real life and the freedom... A life without the drug.

I hope for her she will have an evil time in the SO and she has a chance to blow again.


..and you are right, she is *brainwashed*... we all were even you and me.


I am really sorry to hear about this.

 

[marjan]

Marjan,

If the lady is picking up this vibe from you (that you think she is brainwashed) then you are less likely to connect with her. My advice is to sort this out in your own mind first so that you accept that she has the right to her own decisions and accept that she may rejoin the SO. Then communicate this to her. Grant her the right and power to make this decision. That may then give her the space to change her mind. And even if she does rejoin, you may have helped her to create a space in her own mind so she can later change her decision. If she rejoins, think how she will feel the first time she witnesses or partakes in a crazy action.

Another approach altogether might be to communicate with her about the scientology technology changes introduced by Miscavage: six month checks, three swing FN's, etc. You may not agree with independent scientology but you might usefully play off independent scientology against the CofS flavoured scientology.

If you would like to talk any of this through on the phone, I am available. Ping me and I will give you my details: name, address and phone.

FRHIDDEN

Hello FRHIDDEN, My friend and I have been through an ENORMOUS Amount together. I have never expressed the "brainwashing" idea to her. I say that here. She would never understand or agree to that.

I have fought for people's right to make their own decisions about SCN. I simply was blind-sided by the idea that a former SO, especially one who had been through SOOOOOO much with me, could ever, IN A MILLION YEARS even CONSIDER to go back into the SO.

My friend will do what she thinks is best.
I will stay in touch with her, but I have said "SCN is off-limits. If you want to do that, you do it, but I will not, and cannot support that decision in ANY way."

BTW, I don't know what a PING is.

Mark

 

[marjan]

A part of me can understand her very good.. The wish to go back, a wish of going home, the wish to go on with the Scientology life. It is an addiction... Hubbard created a mind control monster. A Monster that wants to destroy our life, like every other drug would do.

It seems she has lost some real friends (I don't mean you) and contacts after her divorce. :confused2:

Friends and contacts outside Scientology are a good help to stay away from the Cult. They show us the real life and the freedom... A life without the drug.

I hope for her she will have an evil time in the SO and she has a chance to blow again.


..and you are right, she is *brainwashed*... we all were even you and me.


I am really sorry to hear about this.

Yes Nicole, we ALL were.
Thank God, Thank God, Thank God, we got out...

 

[PannonPan]

Marjan,

maybe a book is helpfuller to understand the mind control, the subtleties behind. Markus story is indeed very very sad, but what we read is "only" the impact; not why this could happen.

Try Steven Hassans "Combatting Cult Mind Control"
in German "Ausbruch aus dem Bann der Sekten"

also pls read this link:

"Soziale Kontrolle in Scientology"

Pan

 

[frhidden]

Hello FRHIDDEN, My friend and I have been through an ENORMOUS Amount together. I have never expressed the "brainwashing" idea to her. I say that here. She would never understand or agree to that.

I have fought for people's right to make their own decisions about SCN. I simply was blind-sided by the idea that a former SO, especially one who had been through SOOOOOO much with me, could ever, IN A MILLION YEARS even CONSIDER to go back into the SO.

My friend will do what she thinks is best.
I will stay in touch with her, but I have said "SCN is off-limits. If you want to do that, you do it, but I will not, and cannot support that decision in ANY way."

BTW, I don't know what a PING is.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Thank you for the extra data and clarification.

I am not sure I can add any help to this as you seem to have it covered.

If you want to chat you can private message me and I will share with you my details. (By "ping" I meant send me a private message.)

The button "Freedom" is powerful and I expect your friend is operating on, as she perceives it, a desire for freedom for herself and others. It possibly trumps all you shared and discussed with her over the years.

FRHIDDEN

 

[Reasonable]

Thanks for listening.
Mark

This may be an unpopular suggestion but......You may consider sending her to some freezone people...

WAIT don't hang up yet hear me out.

The only reason is that it is a baby step. Right now she can't go from feeling that Scientology is the answer to Scientology is a cult. Too big of a stretch. She does not want to lose all her friends family etc and her major stable datum.

But if she feels she can leave the organization and it isn't LRH's fault then she can still feel safe. She can blame Miscavage first then move on to blaming LRH if she gets that far but at least there will be no more sea org. She can still have her scientology mind set etc, scientology friends.

That is what did it for me. At first I thought great I can still get scientology, better and cheeper, I did a few services then just lost interest and never went back.

Think of it as a methadone clinic. The lesser of 2 evils. Also if she does go to a "squirrel group" then she will never be allowed back in the sea org again and she knows it. And that will stop her from ever joining sea org again.

Later she can make her own decision but at least it gets her out of the worst of it.

 

[marjan]

This may be an unpopular suggestion but......You may consider sending her to some freezone people...

WAIT don't hang up yet hear me out.

The only reason is that it is a baby step. Right now she can't go from feeling that Scientology is the answer to Scientology is a cult. Too big of a stretch. She does not want to lose all her friends family etc and her major stable datum.

But if she feels she can leave the organization and it isn't LRH's fault then she can still feel safe. She can blame Miscavage first then move on to blaming LRH if she gets that far but at least there will be no more sea org. She can still have her scientology mind set etc, scientology friends.

That is what did it for me. At first I thought great I can still get scientology, better and cheeper, I did a few services then just lost interest and never went back.

Think of it as a methadone clinic. The lesser of 2 evils. Also if she does go to a "squirrel group" then she will never be allowed back in the sea org again and she knows it. And that will stop her from ever joining sea org again.

Later she can make her own decision but at least it gets her out of the worst of it.

Thanks for the idea. However, as you can well imagine, the Freezone people, especially Marty & Co. are "major SP Squirrels" ... in the minds of those who still choose to believe that SCN is the "only answer."

 

[Gadfly]

I have fought for people's right to make their own decisions about SCN. I simply was blind-sided by the idea that a former SO, especially one who had been through SOOOOOO much with me, could ever, IN A MILLION YEARS even CONSIDER to go back into the SO.

Mark

Was that a break in affinity

communication

reality

understanding?



Yeah, no doubt, I would have a bit of trouble understanding this behavior from such a friend, especially from all you describe.

While "brain-washed" might not be the exact perfect term to describe what is going on, there is no doubt that she is MIRED in a sea of FIXED IDEAS based on Hubbard's many claims and statements.

Simply, she obviously AGREES with all of the standard BS line that Hubbard spouts all through his writings and books - that "only we have the way out", "Scn makes OTs", "the Earth needs Scientology", etc. If she still accepts all the BASIC nutty ideas that form the framework of Scientology, she is effectiviely a True Believer, who is incapable of seeing ANYTHING outside of her own tight little box of beliefs. It seems that "KSW #1" still "means something" to her. :confused2:

Hubbard was correct when he explained how "fixed ideas" block off any person from benefiting from the fruits of their own observations. A person with severe fixed ideas is LOCKED inside their head, TRAPPED by the ideas he or she has AGREED with, and just as Hubbard accurately explains, is INCAPABLE OF LEARNING FROM EXPERIENCE. Hubbard knew all about how people with fixed ideas can be controlled and he worked hard and effectively to instill his own set of fixed ideas into the minds of dedicated Scientologists. Obviiously, with some, he has succeeded.

The intense "aberration" of any Scientologist rests firmly upon the AGREEMENTS he or she has made about the various details of Hubbard's (highly imaginary) paradigm. It seems that she has never taken the time to look hard and see through the many LIES that Hubbard's fantasy worldview is based upon. But, it probably IS too late for that. If she has held onto these absurd beliefs and convictions for this long, despite ALL the obvious perceptions to the contrary, she WANTS TO BELIEVE!

In such a case, I figure it would be best, as frhidden said, to try to send her to the FZ. That IS a FAR "lesser evil" than what goes on with the Church of Scientology. And, it also acts as a good "gradient" to "full release from Scientology" for many.

I would take the view that you understand what she feels. That you grasp her desire to "help". But, point out in no uncertain terms the MANY serious evils that official Church has committed. Tell her about Paulette Coooper. How the CHurch framed her in a crime that she NEVER committed. THAT is SO EVIL. Explain how the modern Church does that all of the time. Explain how modern OSA framed Anon Sparrow recently in a crime that HE NEVER committed.

Explain how so many people get declared, and have their relationships with families and friends torn apart, simply because they "disagreed" some point about how the Church is currently being run. Even pretend that it is ALL "Miscavige's fault". DO NOT make it "out ot be Hubbards fault", because I doubt, with the fixed ideas she currently entertains, that she can possibly "have" that "truth".

Explain that she can and should work to help and reach her goals of Scientology WITHOUT contributing to the abomination that is the modern Church of Scientology. Make the usual, and fairly easy to convince argument, that the "organization has betrayed LRH's dream". That the "organization has gone off the rails". That "Miscavige has sabotaged all of Hubbard's hard work". Use buttons that will "get a read".

In other words, don't disagree or try to change her mind about her really SEVERE FIXED IDEAS. You probably can't. But many Scios CAN be fairly easily encouraged to notice how the modern C of S violates so many of Hubbard's policies and goals. Of course, you will be "using ARC" to handle (manipulate) her. You will leave out info such as that Hubbard himself is the REAL cause of all the insanities in the C of S. You will "tell acceptabe truths". Just like in Scientology, at times, one must "manipulate" using ARC, "for the good of the other person".

But, if it works, it works!!!!!!

Keep her OUT of the C of S if at all possible.

Don't discuss many different faults. Pick one and DRIVE IT HOME. Work an idea until she gets it. Then work on another. You know her, so you should already know what angle of "attack" she would "best respond to".

 

[Gadfly]

Thanks for the idea. However, as you can well imagine, the Freezone people, especially Marty & Co. are "major SP Squirrels" ... in the minds of those who still choose to believe that SCN is the "only answer."

Shit, if she actually believes THAT, then she really still is a walking talking over-indoctrinated ROBOT! :confused2:

It amazes me how people are supposed to "gain in awareness and understanding" through Scientology, and yet after so MANY years can remain so incredibly THICK, DULL and basically shut off from sane, intelligent observations about Hubbard and his Church of Bullshitology.

Scientology doesn't create OTs or people who "know how to know". It creates "true believers", and over-eager followers, who will go to their graves singing the praises of Hubbard and Scientology DESPITE ALL THE EXTENSIVE EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY.

I get to a point, no matter how good of a friend they are, that I just don't want to be in the same space as all of that "entheta" any longer. It can be a tiring and very unrewarding thing to try to "help an overzealous fanatic". They are trapped in a prison of their own considerations and agreements (just like Hubbard explains), they can't see or understand anything outside of their belief framework, and they CAN'T be helped in such a condition. They simply refuse.

Breaking down and through that very thick wall of Scientology fixed ideas is not easy. Hubbard did his job well.

 

[marjan]

Shit, if she actually believes THAT, then she really still is a walking talking over-indoctrinated ROBOT! :confused2:

It amazes me how people are supposed to "gain in awareness and understanding" through Scientology, and yet after so MANY years can remain so incredibly THICK, DULL and basically shut off from sane, intelligent observations about Hubbard and his Church of Bullshitology.

Scientology doesn't create OTs or people who "know how to know". It creates "true believers", and over-eager followers, who will go to their graves singing the praises of Hubbard and Scientology DESPITE ALL THE EXTENSIVE EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY.

I get to a point, no matter how good of a friend they are, that I just don't want to be in the same space as all of that "entheta" any longer. It can be a tiring and very unrewarding thing to try to "help an overzealous fanatic". They are trapped in a prison of their own considerations and agreements (just like Hubbard explains), they can't see or understand anything outside of their belief framework, and they CAN'T be helped in such a condition. They simply refuse.

Hello Gadfly, from my point of view, it is HOPELESS to speak my friend about SCN. She has had first-hand experience with this organization, the vast majority of it, being negative, and very, very disappointing.

Despite everything that she has experienced, her refusal to understand that she is being fed a crock of bullshit again, dazzles the mind.

I love my friend. She is basically a very good person, however her intelligence is limited. This is just another step in the pattern of her life over the last 15 years. "Don't confront it, just bury it in 'excuses.'"

I have said to her what I plan to say.
She KNOWS what SCN is. She KNOWS how they really are.
However, she refuses to ACKNOWLEDGE what she KNOWS.

As we say in America "A fool and his money are soon parted."
Exchange "life" for "money" and there you have my friend's situation.

She is throwing her life away, supporting an organization that does not deserve her support.

 

[Gadfly]

<snip>

"Don't confront it, just bury it in 'excuses.'"

<snip>

She is throwing her life away, supporting an organization that does not deserve her support.

It kills me. More contradictions in Scientology.

Hubbard talks on and on about "confront", "obnosis", "knowing what you know", "personal integrity", "acting on what is true for you as OBSERVATION", and "looking at what is there", and then he managed to create a subject and an organization that makes all of that IMPOSSIBLE! He gets people to TALK about LOOKING & OBSERVING, but who REALLY are stuck in a intricate web of "thinkingness". They never got up Hubbard's Know to Mystery Scale from "thinkingness" to "lookingness". Once any person accepts Hubbard's concepts and ideas, which are all of the nature of "thinking about", they become LOCKED at that point.

They "know", NOT up at the top as "knowingness", but they "know" as "BELIEF". As "thinkingness". As "fixed ideas".

Scientology is the game where "thinkers" think that they are "knowers".

It is sad to watch how people can so pretentiously present themselves as "up high on the Tone Scale", and actually be so low in terms of ability and awareness. Such is the scam/trap/delusion of Scientology.

Yes, she IS "throwing her life away", but she BELIEVES otherwise!

 

[crm1978]

your post describes very well why a scientologist can't "as is" a damn thing.The lies and contradictions run through the whole subject and came straight from LRH The thing is that Scn has not and never will clear the planet in fact they are moving in the other direction.The other thing is that spiritual freedom can't be obtained in a tightly controlled anti free thought enviroment like Scn.It is a sad irony that the reality of what scientology is is the opposit of how it is seen by it's members.

 

[GreyWolf]

Tell her to make sure that she has it in writing that she will not be shipped off to the RPF as soon as she gets there.

 

[Moosejewels]

On Friday, I sang a concert in Munich, Germany. There I met with one of my dearest friends, a former Sea Org Member, who stood by my side during all the negative fall-out that I experienced due to my association with Scientology. This woman lost her job 6 times because of her association with me. She has been my best friend all these years.

She left the SO in 1982, and has been paying off around €180,000 in debt from her Freeloader, Tax problems and her OT Levels. She has lived under ENORMOUS pressure for the last 30 years. Her health is not good. Her marriage has been a shambles since I know her, but due to financial problems, they could never separate. Since founding her own business a few years ago, she has lost numerous large consulting contracts because of being a Scientologist.

On Friday, she informed me, even after everything that she has experienced; after witnessing everything that happened to me; after dealing with OSA, IAS, and the corrupted CC Network for ALL THESE YEARS.... she was going to get a divorce in the summer and move to Copenhagen and join the Sea Organization once again.

I was stunned. I was horrified. I was speechless.

"How could you possibly ignore EVERYTHING that you have experienced over the last 30 years? How could you pretend that NONE of that happened? How can you look me in the eye and tell me 'Yes but things have changed, now?'" I asked her?

I told my friend, "I love you dearly. Nobody wanted you to be happy more than me... but I CANNOT ACCEPT OR SUPPORT THIS DECISION, not in any way. I cannot sit here and talk small talk with you, when I know that you are about to throw away the few years that you have remaining by signing up for the SO again. I simply cannot."

Dear readers here on the forum, I am sorry to puke all of this out, on all of you. But today, I had to stop a friendship of more than 16 years. My heart is broken for my friend, who remains willfully blind to everything that occurred in our lives.

If that is not "brainwashed" then I don't know what is.

Thanks for listening.
Mark

That's fu**ing sad ! (Pardon my foul mouth)

 

[marjan]

That's fu**ing sad ! (Pardon my foul mouth)

Yes, it is. More than sad, it's disgusting.

 

[NoName]

The biggest problem with that, is that she does not speak anything but the most rudimentary english. I have already spoken with her numerous times, about her lack of information. However, since the most damning evidence against CoS comes from former SO Members from Int. Mgmt, and almost NONE of them are German, then it presents a problem of comprehension.

If she read english, I would have already had her here reading.

Google translate does a good job. Maybe she can read stuff here thru google translate.

BTW, I can relate to your situation and I'm sorry.

 

[GreyWolf]

That's fu**ing sad ! (Pardon my foul mouth)

Yup. Sad. But it stuff like this that keeps some of us fighting when we could have giving it up long ago.

 

[NoName]

Oh, and in the event she gets shipped off to the US of A, give her the 1-866-XSEAORG number and explain how to use it.

In case you don't know, the 1-866 part of it means that the person who receives the calls pays for it, so you can go to a public pay phone and call it without any money. Granted, she'd need to be able to communicate with whoever picks it up, but it's good information for her to have in case she gets to the U.S. and wants / needs to blow. You could write out (phonetically for her to be able to say it) how to ask for help, but she'd need to be able to give her location.

No passport? No problem. There's a German consulate, diplomatic ties with the US, and all that. She can walk up to any cop, say she is a crime victim, and ask for consular representation. Even so, tell her to make a xerox copy of her passport and identity card and keep it well hidden with her personal things, as the SO will confiscate her originals. Nuff said. That's what the State Dept and the American Universities tell people to do, since it is much easier to deal with Americans who get pickpocketed abroad if they have done all that. I would assume that it would work similarly for German citizens.

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

Google translate does a good job. Maybe she can read stuff here thru google translate.

BTW, I can relate to your situation and I'm sorry.

Good group of Germanons exists too, I believe they have several sites in EU, maybe someone with better IT stuffs could post some links? Much critical info/dox/truth has been translated by a dedicated staff of anonymous people who care. (WWP has a German/Deutch sub-section, lots of good people there)