Is Scientology Fascism?

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Mimsey Borogrove, Oct 4, 2018.

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  1. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    "If by totalitarianism one means a regime that subordinates every act of the individual to the state and to its ideology, then both Nazism and Stalinism were true totalitarian regimes." Umberto Eco

    If we take the totalitaristic dogma of Scientology to heart as espoused in KSW #1 and it's "our way or the highway" meme, and the unmitigated gall of placing all other governments of the world on Division 9 of the Org board, and scoffing wog law, it is indeed Fascism.

    Why should Fascism be limited to politics? Aren't the radical Islamists likewise a totalitaristic view of Islam? Aren't there similar attitudes in the Evangelistic Christian faith? Why do they espouse the Revelations over the other more tolerant sections of the bible?

    Why should Scientology be considered in any other light? It certainly was not a form of democracy, what with Hubbard insistence of the rightness of his beliefs? The demand they be followed exactly. This belief of his has been there from the beginning - in Science of Survival - he posits the eradication of 1.1 and below tone leveled individuals. Not a charitable position for a religion that believes man is a spiritual being. Oh, but it is his reactive mind that is responsible for man's ill treatment of his fellow man.

    Such hubris.

    Mimsey
     
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  2. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Scientology is totally fascist and has become more so over time.

    Everything is centrally controlled. No missions, no publications, no official commentary or representation outside of the central plan. No WDC, no checks and balances...all power is centrallized.

    Even, today, the local orgs aren't owned locally...rather they are bought and paid for locally and then titled by corporate and leased back.

    Complete fascism.
     
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  3. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I think "Fascism" as a term is more subject to various interpretations. I'm sure this could be debated further but I'm inclined to agree with this assessment that Totalitarianism is more like a single person or entity that has little need for persuasion or PR. To my thinking Totalitarianism is a better description of Scientology's policy and political goals and operations.

    I think KSW and it's many other supporting teachings on tape and in writing is as literally a Fundamentalist doctrinal decree as it gets so Scientology is Fundamentalist Totalitarianism.

    https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-totalitarianism-and-vs-fascism/

    (snipped)

    What is the difference between Totalitarianism and Fascism?
    Fascism was a political ideology that has its origin in Italy and has been transferred to Germany at a later stage. Fascism is a type of political government in which the state is being governed by a single political party. On the other hand Totalitarianism is a political system in which the power to make all decision of the state is in the control of an individual. Fascism employs the mass communication and media which is controlled by state to spread propaganda that works to provide favor to the ruling people of the state which allows rulers to avoid opposition from the general public. Totalitarianism political system oppresses the rights of an individual from general public through the use of power.
    ________________________
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-is-religious-fundamentalism.html

    Religious fundamentalism refers to the belief of an individual or a group of individuals in the absolute authority of a sacred religious text or teachings of a particular religious leader, prophet,and/ or God . These fundamentalists believe that their religion is beyond any form of criticism, and should therefore also be forced upon others. Logical explanations and scientific evidences have no place in these belief systems if they work against their religious fundamentalists. For fundamentalists, religion dictates every sphere of their daily lives, and they also attempt to involve the entire society into their own belief system, often by the use of force.

    (snipped)
     
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  4. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    I think Fascist fits better.

    Especially when you add in WISE and the Cult's control of Cult Member Businesses and it's flow of money to the Cult.
    And all the Front Groups that hide their affiliations, but are really trying to spread "the tech."
     
  5. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    In it's stated philosophy...

    No.

    It isn't.

    And back in the day the people I knew weren't the least bit fascist.

    Ron was an autocrat but he certainly was not a fascist autocrat and his writings clearly move proper students to freedom in the context of personal responsibility. Training was done with stringent discipline. As it should be.

    But...

    From the start I could see that the way policy was configured it was dangerously close to fascism and totalitarianism and just as one opening in a game of chess can lead to a position which transposes into a familiar result of a different opening it was clear that unless the ideals were taken close to heart the inevitable challenges of life would bump it over into...

    more or less what it is now
     
  6. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I agree that their operating basis appears fascist in their use of subversion and indirect attempts to infiltrate and control but I think their stated goal is totalitarian and where they have freedom to exercise total control without consequences they have been consistently totalitarian.

    If the stated goals of a fascist political system is totalitarianism then it's a distinction without a difference.

    Islam preaches to go along and get along until they have enough numbers and power to enforce absolute fundamentalism. I would say they are being fascist as a gradient until they can be what they inherently are.

    Where Scientology and Islam differ is Scientology tries to hide their true nature and therefore must indoctrinate followers into fundamentalist totalitarianism whereas Islam openly recruits people who are already on board with the whole agenda. If Scientology recruited people on the basis that they get to operate the RPF and PTS Type III incarcerations and Fair Gaming ops AND be subjected to them then their base would be sociopaths from the start just like Islam. People born into Islam may not be sociopaths by nature but they also may not know anything different. I think Scientology is now at that point with 2 - 3 generations knowing nothing else. This must make it more difficult to engage the raw public as your staff and membership no longer have the basic social skills to not behave like sociopaths, even if they use something as innocuous as ice cream to do it. If I had that problem I'd probably replace real people with video screens at the entry points also.
     
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  7. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Conspiracy Analyst

    Fascist? Yes, it creates a new category called fascism with a falsified religious front, a new more dangerous version the world has not seen before.
    It's criminally fascist which is fascism with no ethical nor legal limitations, as so much happened behind a veil of secrecy that it has turns out they've been far more fascist than we ever had evidence of till many had already wasted their lives and fortunes upon it.
     
  8. screamer2

    screamer2 Occam's Ball Crusher

    Insofar as $cientology is a religion, it is religious fascisim.
    Insofar as $cienrology is spiritual, it is spiritual fascism.
    Insofar as $cientology is a movement, it is a bowel movement.
    Think about that for a moment.
    $cientology as a bowel movement. Fascism.

    Could this be 'the why' for no toilet paper?

    "No toilet paper for you!"
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
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  9. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    Fascism (as originally defined by Mussolini in the 1930's) was different from Communism in that there was still the illusion of private property, but when the central government gave you an order as to what prices to set, or who you could hire or fire, you obeyed (or else).

    Similarly, in Scientology, there is the illusion of people having their private property, but when Scientology demands you hand it over, or IAS demands you use company assets to buy a Patronship, or WISE demands you operate your company in a certain way, or HCO demands your company not employ or do business with certain people, then you either comply or else. That is the essence of Fascism.

    Scientology is totalitarian Fascism. You run your business, and your life, THEIR way, and having any opinions contrary to the Will of DM, makes you a Bad Person to be stomped on.
     
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  10. Teanntás

    Teanntás Silver Meritorious Patron

    George Orwell back in 1944: "
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.
    Yet underneath all this mess there does lie a kind of buried meaning. To begin with, it is clear that there are very great differences, some of them easy to point out and not easy to explain away, between the régimes called Fascist and those called democratic. Secondly, if ‘Fascist’ means ‘in sympathy with Hitler’, some of the accusations I have listed above are obviously very much more justified than others. Thirdly, even the people who recklessly fling the word ‘Fascist’ in every direction attach at any rate an emotional significance to it. By ‘Fascism’ they mean, roughly speaking, something cruel, unscrupulous, arrogant, obscurantist, anti-liberal and anti-working-class. Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come.
    But Fascism is also a political and economic system. Why, then, cannot we have a clear and generally accepted definition of it? Alas! we shall not get one — not yet, anyway. To say why would take too long, but basically it is because it is impossible to define Fascism satisfactorily without making admissions which neither the Fascists themselves, nor the Conservatives, nor Socialists of any colour, are willing to make. All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword." Today it has even less meaning, like, I don't like you or your opinions.

    I would just call Scientology a totalitarian cult

    http://www.orwell.ru/library/articles/As_I_Please/english/efasc
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
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  11. Dotey OT

    Dotey OT Patron

    My experience, it (through it's authorities) believes it can tell you who you can and cannot have a romantic relationship with, who you can or cannot be employed by, what people you can or cannot be friends with, what types of medical treatments you can or cannot have, what you can or cannot say to others in the church, what you can and cannot do legally to other members of the church regardless of what has happened to you, what you can or cannot say about church members, just to name a few. And that is only what my experience has been
     
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  12. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Scientology has two sets of books.

    One set essentially defines itself as the only workable technology to achieve spiritual freedom = Fundamentalism.

    The other, in recognition of it's own importance over everything else, defines itself as a political system requiring total control of society in order to protect and provide it's promised freedom = Totalitarianism.

    So it is a totalitarian system promising total freedom = Cult.

    I think "Fascism" as a term is so muddied in usage that without a very clear understanding of it's original meaning it is virtually useless. It has become such a joke that people who want to crush opposing speech and ideas now get to call themselves "Anti-Fascists". Where the ultimate goal is totalitarianism but compromises must be made with other power brokers and captains of industry until that can be achieved, totalitarianism requires intermediate doctrines. Fascism is to Totalitarianism as Socialism is to Communism. It's easy to get bogged down in what these intermediate doctrines mean and the various ways they are actually applied and that is by design. We aren't supposed to equate them with the ultimate goal of totalitarianism. We are only supposed to appreciate them for their stated altruistic goals.

    Scientology has gone through it's intermediate phases also. Some people associate it with a more "friendly" time period or a more "friendly" level like the old Mission Network but even then there was the GO in the background with it's very clear and elaborate instructions to destroy all opposition and competition and to instill Scientology as a global governance. So do we define Scientology by it's glossy social veneer or the kinds of instructions LRH gave to the GO?

    I think the most telling thing is how quickly LRH instituted the RPF pogrom and the chain lockering once he got devotees isolated on the ship. The RPF was in full swing by the time they re-established on land in 1975 and it was synonymous with the Sea Org. Joining the Sea Org was a perpetual challenge to avoid the RPF. It was an ever present threat. How much of our motivation was due to dedication to Scientology and how much was due to avoidance of deprivation and punishment. After a while it becomes difficult to discern. That is the true nature of Scientology. If Scientology controlled the world, the world would be one big RPF with no intermediate doctrine.
     
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  13. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    I'm an auditor.

    I firmly believe auditing and auditor training are good things.

    Does anyone here suspect me of being a Fascist?

    Does anyone here suspect me of being a Communist?

    Does anyone here suspect me of being a Democrat?
     
  14. Francois Tremblay

    Francois Tremblay Patron with Honors

    Well, fascism is a political ideology and has a specific political meaning. But one of its most famous attributes is extreme authoritarianism, so it is fair to talk about authoritarian systems as fascist in a manner of speaking. One thing I think is striking about WW2 is how much more demoralized the German population was compared to the Allies, even early on in the war when they were winning. We're certainly seeing how demoralized Scientologists are now (although, to be fair, they are losing). Another common trait is the incapacity to confront "being wrong." We see this today as well in our own new brands of fascism.
     
  15. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Conspiracy Analyst

    I think because it continues to evolve and grow new wings like a demon orb in the darkness, you're never certain what form it will shape-shift into just before it raises it's ugly head and fucks you up.
    Society changes too so the way fascism plugs into that changes as society does.
    It has no limitations other than those self imposed aspects that you'd never expect to see emanate from it like power to the people with greater wealth distribution and liberation for the oppressed, freedom to run your business without any governmental strangleholds etc.
    It all and we all exist to serve their state power structure in their eyes.
    In short it just won't evolve in a positive nurturing direction because that would go against it's internal winding's, spin and tack - as in Scientology.
     
  16. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Isn't the basic problem with government is it's morphing Into something else?

    Hubbard said this:
    "And I don't see that popular measures, self-abnegation and democracy have done anything for man but push him further into the mud. Currently, popularity endorses degraded novels, self-abnegation has filled the Southeast Asian jungles with stone idols and corpses, and democracy has given us inflation and income tax."

    I also remember his discussing that while he thought the best form of government was a benevolent monarchy. The problem he discussed on the tape was that of succession. What if the successor was not benevolent? I don't recall his offering up an answer, though I think the answer was making his tech and policy inviolate, thus his "benevolence" could go on forever.

    Perhaps he thought of himself as such a benevolent monarch, the reality was that he was a dictator. I presume he was a believer in much of what Scientology freedom and spirituality could deliver, or he was OCD on the subject, and could never cease tweaking it. Miscavage however, ceases to place the delivery of the technology at the apex, but it after donos.

    Thus Scientology has morphed into something else despite Hubbard's KSW.

    But back to the point of government morphing into something else.

    It seems to me that in case of a populist or democratic government, either will evolve into a repressive one because there is no mechanism to prevent special interests from inserting their policies into the government. Hubbard has tried to circumvent that though it seems he hasn't succeeded.

    In Scientology DM has radically changed Scientology from the subject I came into in the sixties. While Hubbard tried to deliver his technology and indeed protect it from the ravages of time. To do so he had to become a dictator to some extent, but there was this club atmosphere that I enjoyed. Under Miscavage, it turned into a soulless bureaucracy, though it doesn't really fit that definition:

    noun: bureaucracy
    a system of government in which most of the important decisions are made by state officials rather than by elected representatives.

    Bureaucracy refers to both a body of non-elective government officials and an administrative policy-making group. Historically, a bureaucracy was a government administration managed by departments staffed with non-elected officials. Wikipedia

    I guess the current version of Scientology's demeanor is that of a bureaucracy, implacable it it's insistence of the rightness of it's position, the following of it's rules exactly, to the exclusion of other viewpoints, situations, which is unfeeling an veneer over the fascist iron fist - as opposed to Hubbard's velvet glove on an iron fist. He knew the importance of maintaining the illusion of flexibility to making the public tractable, such with this "you can always write Ron" etc. I doubt Miscavage much cares to maintain the illusion.

    The question in the back of my mind - how will it evolve when Miscavage is pushing up daises?

    Mimsey
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  17. strativarius

    strativarius Comfortably Numb

    Well, that's sorted then, now we know where we've been going wrong. Three cheers for Ron!
     
  18. TomKat

    TomKat Patron with Honors

    Well said. Whenever a philosophy of individual excellence is expanded to the group, that is almost, by definition, fascism. Fascism views the individual as a cell in a larger body. A non-conforming cell is seen as cancer that threatens the whole group. Some cultures are more fascistic in nature than others, such as Japan where "the nail that sticks up shall be hammered down" (which isn't so different from the attitude of small town America).

    It is one thing to confess transgressions for one's own benefit on Grade 2, and quite another to do it as part of (or prelude to) an ethics action. The former promotes the individual, whereas the latter quashes individuality.

    So the corruption of the tech (e.g., "False Purpose Rundown") was inevitable in this fascistic context. It would have fared better if it followed the model of medicine, where there are nothing but individual practitioners governed by a certifying board. The church would only run academies which released licensed professionals into the field and the only services from the church would be training.

    A strictly practical definition of evil for this century could well be Centralization -- a century where individuality is threatened by globalism, technocracy and transhumanism. Children have to decide whether they want to be an individual or a cell in the greater body, a mere node in someone else's global network, an "I" or an "It." People born this century are more willing to being "It" than previous generations.
     
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  19. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    This is a perfect argument as to why one wouldn't want people like Sanders or Cortez to transform the role of government and expand it. What happens when they're pushing up daisies?
     
  20. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    I would wager our country (all the cars and other accoutrements of modern life aside) bears little resemblance to what our founding fathers envisioned it would have become. It is mid morph into some other status, that I don't know if I much care for.

    Something Hubbard said - that the population should be consumers. Really? Is that a worthwhile goal?

    Mimsey
     

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