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Journeying/Dreaming/Seeing v. Lucid dreaming and how does it relate to OT?

Maria Cuervo

Gold Meritorious Patron
:unsure: I just clicked Veda's link to read the Final Handling bulletin. We in twubble.
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A sci fi I watched a few days ago..... controlled holographic dreaming.
(1991) Timebomb - Trailer - Michael Biehn Movie: http://youtu.be/4QHXWvS9VfU

I am going to watch the video today.
A difference between a holographic dream and what a shaman would call dreaming is that dreaming is actually connecting with those forces. So a dream of 1978 would be an actual contact with 1978. The degree of my dreaming ability would determine if I can actually be in 1978, as real and solid as I am here now. I have actually done that a few times and it is IS neat. The weaker the link the more the connection looks like a memory or a recall or whatever.

I'll say more when I watch the video.
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
I am going to watch the video today.
A difference between a holographic dream and what a shaman would call dreaming is that dreaming is actually connecting with those forces. So a dream of 1978 would be an actual contact with 1978. The degree of my dreaming ability would determine if I can actually be in 1978, as real and solid as I am here now. I have actually done that a few times and it is IS neat. The weaker the link the more the connection looks like a memory or a recall or whatever.

I'll say more when I watch the video.

I hope you are not disappointed. It is more like Montaulk meets The Candidate meets Jason Bourne.

I saw some photos on the net where this time traveller says he is standing next to Lincoln as an 8 yr old boy. He went back to the Gettysburg address. I just cannot see how that wouldn't mess up the future and the present. The idea spooks me. I keep thinking of how the guys in the Philadelphia Experiment ended up when they tried to change their position relative to the time space continuum.

My fav film with Hugh Jackman was on this weekend. Kate and Leopold.. He gets brought up from 1870 to present thru a portal over the Brooklyn Bridge. He sells butter in a tv commercial and then takes Kate back to marry him. And of course I cry when I see Christopher Reeves in Somewhere In Time. I hope you experiment is happy. Happy travels.:)

Come back in a DeLorean :dancer:
 

Maria Cuervo

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think the video is right. Imagine if dreams are real. And maybe the identity is the fake. But the identity is not the soul and the soul is not created by them. I am going to try and watch the whole movie. It looks really ineresting!!!!
:dancer:
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
I got kinda upset when he laid down in the tank with fluids and wires coming in to lock him in under. These sci fi Matrix-type writers spew up similar concepts. Funny, I don't have difficulty digesting teleportion as a concept, but its only if you end up in the same time co-ordinates.
 

Maria Cuervo

Gold Meritorious Patron
I got kinda upset when he laid down in the tank with fluids and wires coming in to lock him in under. These sci fi Matrix-type writers spew up similar concepts. Funny, I don't have difficulty digesting teleportion as a concept, but its only if you end up in the same time co-ordinates.

Right.

The way I think of it is that we are here in this body, as a soul, and that the dreams are where we 'go places' and that in that process they could try and do things or control us or deceive us to think they created us. They maybe created the matrix, but not reality, not me, is all I am saying. As for dreams, they ARE real I think. I just stopped going there to those 'places'. Just because a place is real does not mean I have to hang out there.
 

Maria Cuervo

Gold Meritorious Patron
I hope you are not disappointed. It is more like Montaulk meets The Candidate meets Jason Bourne.

I saw some photos on the net where this time traveller says he is standing next to Lincoln as an 8 yr old boy. He went back to the Gettysburg address. I just cannot see how that wouldn't mess up the future and the present. The idea spooks me. I keep thinking of how the guys in the Philadelphia Experiment ended up when they tried to change their position relative to the time space continuum.

My fav film with Hugh Jackman was on this weekend. Kate and Leopold.. He gets brought up from 1870 to present thru a portal over the Brooklyn Bridge. He sells butter in a tv commercial and then takes Kate back to marry him. And of course I cry when I see Christopher Reeves in Somewhere In Time. I hope you experiment is happy. Happy travels.:)

Come back in a DeLorean :dancer:

I can't seem to find a url where I could watch the whole movie. Looks good actually.
 
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Maria Cuervo

Gold Meritorious Patron
The full movie was deleted from YT but you can watch in slices in HD

Kate & Leopold (9/12) Movie CLIP - Leopold's Butter Commercial (2001) HD: http://youtu.be/Fwi0bsJ5F8I

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I've seen this one. It's cute. If you never have, try watching the Adjustment Bureau. The premise is:
"Are we in charge of our lives, or are decisions made for us long before we consider them? Do we control our destiny, or do unseen forces manipulate it?"

[video=youtube;fSeWHl1PaKs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSeWHl1PaKs[/video]
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
I really like Emily Blunt. I will check out the movie clips. Matt Damon is part of the George Clooney Hollywood muscle. Emily is a best friend of Clooney too. I was oggling pictures of George's wedding and guests. These two were present. :wink2:
 

I Am Not I

Patron with Honors
There is another way to think of dreaming given our experience with the word OT.

Often we hear the term LUCID dreaming. It's a Western concept.

A shaman would not call it lucid (that would never do) but instead calls it journeying/visioning/dreaming/seeing. Any of those terms work. Let's call it dreaming but explain why dreaming is better than lucid dreaming.

For the Indian (Castaneda's book art of Dreaming can be a reference here) the idea of tricking the unconscious is not a factor since shamanism is not aware of an unconscious in that way (as some YouTube videos say about how we would be able to trigger lucid dreaming via the Freudian unconscious). While many think lucid dreaming relates to the unconscious or subconscious, dreaming in the native Indian sense diverges from this. It assembles differently.

The idea is that when we are awake, we are holding on to certain perceptions, values, story arcs, lines of force and these assemble our reality (telephone wires if you will). Dreaming is a capacity in which we can assemble other lines of force that are not the usual lines we assemble. In that sense, when we dream, we are actually in a different world. It is irrelevant whether our body is in bed or whether it is gone. Either way, from the viewpoint of consciousness we have moved ourselves to a different time and space because we assembled reality differently. We are nowhere other than exactly where we are. We are not split between a sleeper and the dreamer. We are in a different assemblage.

The reality we assembled cannot be our unconscious for the shaman because the lines of force are filling the universe and not just mine but outside of me. If what we assemble IS based on the unconscious or the subconscious, for the Indian all it means is that we were timid and stayed close to the ordinary waking reality (albeit quite lucid) and really barely dreamed at all. Therefore clarity, clearness, lucidity is not the specific attribute that is of interest here. A lucid dream in the Western sense does not have to be dreaming in the Indian sense since it could obsess and continue its linkage with the same old lines of force that one is used to when we are awake.

Ok. If the above is true, we can take another leap, again referencing Don Juan in Art of Dreaming or other Castaneda books. (While I studied all this with a shaman directly it is easier to refer to Castaneda since anyone can then go and look it up).

Here is the leap: If we assemble reality with different lines of force, then let us postulate or think an amazing thought from the shaman or animist point of view that we are actually in a different place. And possibly, actually in a different time. The lines of force we assemble or filter (like telephone wires or cables or threads or filaments) are not limited to PT. They could be in the past or future or, yes, they could be in the present. They could be in your bedroom or in Hawaii. That is, time as well as space is a variable element in dreaming in the Indian tradition laid out by Don Juan. So when you change the assembled elements, you are for all intents and purposes ELSEWHERE. In this regard, auditing is a more TEMPORAL procedure. Dreaming is a more spatial one.

As one practices one can visit certain places or times regularly and map out those places, change the places one visits and go to new places etc. The Mayan and Aztec codices in the Vatican are essentially maps or recordings of these dreaming locations and dreaming activities.

For the shaman dreaming IS what we think of as OT. There are lots of ramifications and I don't want to make this too long. Auditing would be there to fix the weird outpoint that the person was always lucid dreaming things that were very similar to waking reality. That is he was timid and staying in the present moment and in the present place and was not adventuring out into history, the future, other worlds, etc.

(So basically for the shaman, and for me too, lucid dreaming is not adequate either as a term or as a practice since it cannot leave Time Space and OPERATE at will where it wishes to operate.)

BTW, these lines of force or filaments are sort of like telephone wires or cables. As we choose and assemble them different ones run through the thetan at the assemblage point as don juan calls it. That assemblage, having been changed, gives a different knot in time, a different arrangement. Thus we are in a different place and time. We are not actually imagining it or in two places. That would be the Indian view anyway, maybe not agreeing with the Western view of Lucid dreaming. As I said, all sorts of implications and places to take this view of reality and of 'OT' but I don't want to overextend my self.

Final point: for very important reasons this is slightly the opposite (weird I know although appears similar and feels similar) of becoming OT. I will expand if anyone is interested.

In disclaimer I am currently not using any techniques, not auditing, not dreaming, nothing. Just hanging out. :)
Maria

You ought to be aware that Castenada has pretty much been proven at this point to have made shit up. This is all mostly documented. For example, the timelines in his book don't match up and Don Juan was simply made up. It's also pretty clear he plucked from Gurdjieff and a Chi Kung teacher to create his 'tradition'. He did build what some people would describe as a cult around him later on, too.

Shamanic Journeying and Lucid Dreaming are not the same thing. One you're awake, one you're asleep.

Also people will tend to use the term Native American or some such, not Indian, these days.

Frankly even the term/category shaman itself is problematic. I mean you're not living in Siberia or Lappland.
 

Maria Cuervo

Gold Meritorious Patron
You ought to be aware that Castenada has pretty much been proven at this point to have made shit up. This is all mostly documented. For example, the timelines in his book don't match up and Don Juan was simply made up. It's also pretty clear he plucked from Gurdjieff and a Chi Kung teacher to create his 'tradition'. He did build what some people would describe as a cult around him later on, too.

Shamanic Journeying and Lucid Dreaming are not the same thing. One you're awake, one you're asleep.

Also people will tend to use the term Native American or some such, not Indian, these days.

Frankly even the term/category shaman itself is problematic. I mean you're not living in Siberia or Lappland.

Actually, American Indians I know DO NOT LIKE THE TERM NATIVE AMERICAN! I guess the objection is the world "American". I am not saying all, just some. I was also corrected once for saying Native American to one. He was offended by that sh**. As for CC, yes a bogus piece of garbage he was. Mostly only refer to him as a point of reference, a point of where idiocy meets dreaming. Most of what I was doing was with an actual native who actually was doing things passed down to him from others, which actually, his teachings or trainings (the tiny bit I learned) were not related to or concerned with what CC does and are not publicly known since are kept private. He is the one that weaned me off CC. We had many a conversation where we ripped those books, at least the first 10, apart sentence by sentence. Since this man was a professor also, and a well known person not just among other Indians, I doubt that the criticisms he had were far off. Yes, I know the difference of dreaming/journeying and of lucid dreaming. :biggrin: I do agree about the term shamanism. I used it and use it only because unfortunately I don't want to take up a page each time I explain something to explain also why I can't use that word. It's problematic but commonly known and that is why, since it is commonly known, I used it for at least an initial opening. Yes, if one were to go beyond a shallow reading of things, then the word would require critique or else not be used at all. But a forum is hardly the place to get into it since this is exes for Scn not really exes for journeying. And yeah, the word Indian sucks too. Which is why one can be referred to as Dine or Navajo or whatever and never have to say Indian or Native American or any of that labeling given by others.
 
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Hatshepsut

Crusader
You ought to be aware that Castenada has pretty much been proven at this point to have made shit up. This is all mostly documented. For example, the timelines in his book don't match up and Don Juan was simply made up. It's also pretty clear he plucked from Gurdjieff and a Chi Kung teacher to create his 'tradition'. He did build what some people would describe as a cult around him later on, too.

Shamanic Journeying and Lucid Dreaming are not the same thing. One you're awake, one you're asleep.

Also people will tend to use the term Native American or some such, not Indian, these days.

Frankly even the term/category shaman itself is problematic. I mean you're not living in Siberia or Lappland
.

Intriguing...those last two sentences. I was just researching the gypsies in the Kurdish surrounding areas.

I think this lady is hypnotizing that golden eagle in Kazakhstan. Its an annual competition.





Headdress from Nez Perce made from the tail feathers of golden eagle who sadly didn't feel the same love.
 

Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
I was practicing the stuff, not really expecting it to work much, just experimenting. What an idiot, huh? In my defense, this was decades ago.

During one of my meditations on Sun rays broken up by my eyelashes with my mostly closed eye, as I slowly moved my head, which always produced a mini video in my mind. Sometimes it would be simple stuff, like an animal running. Other times it got complicated. I was amazed at how clear it was. Who would have guessed?

One day, I was interrupted by a noise. A very loud rapping, maybe three a second. Then it would stop, and repeat. I was sure that some otherworldly being was upon me, it was that loud.

I opened my eyes, and standing in front of me was a California Scrub Jay. I didn't know what she was at the time, but I was amazed that any bird would be standing right in front of me, I mean within reach.

I immediately got an impression that that bird wanted me to feed her. It was like 'come on! where's the food!' as she pecked the roof I was meditating on right in front of me.

I climbed down, ran inside, got some bread, climbed back up, and sat, putting broken up bread in front of me.

Sure enough, she came back, ate some, carried some away to her nest, that was nearby in a tree, and kind of generally hung out with me for a few weeks when I did my daily meditations. This is the short version of the story.

When those books told me animals would talk to me, I laughed. I'm still laughing, but for different reasons.
 
I was practicing the stuff, not really expecting it to work much, just experimenting. What an idiot, huh? In my defense, this was decades ago.

Snippppp

When those books told me animals would talk to me, I laughed. I'm still laughing, but for different reasons.
Sure they can communicate with layers of communication obviously banked with intelligence - I normally fed my old skinny ass cat in the mornings before work, but many times I'd be doing emails etc, and he would get all annoyed, as he was old and hungry since he wasn't getting much nourishment from what he ate.

There I am ignoring him, glued to the computer, typing away. So the damn cat backed up and pissed on my monitor.

Mimsey
 

JustSheila

Crusader
:yes: yeh, Rmack. That moment when the animal world opens to us, when an animal lets us in and we are open to it.

Sheer joy.

And we perceive the world so differently afterward, as another facet glows and shines and opens with their love.

IMG_1199_L.jpg
 

Maria Cuervo

Gold Meritorious Patron
All the Mayan codices, e.g., the Borgia codex stored in the Vatican library are basically maps of dreaming or journeying. I bring that up because if we could draw a 'map' of the journeying or dreaming spaces, we could consider that there is more than one domain, the matrix and, consider, what is not matrix. My understanding, these days when I journey goes along that line.

Two spheres where dreaming can happen based just on my own experience as a shaman for several years plus also being Christian since then, having abandoned the shamanic path [and no I can't offer proof of anything and I don't have 'evidence' to offer for any side of any argument someone could suggest]:

a) The TUAT or underworld sphere belonging to the gods, native/Egyptian/Greek/Sumerian etc. This TUAT includes the material world, the i, consciousness, the quantum universe, plus the metaphysical sphere of dreaming known as the underworld itself, the unconscious, etc = the entire matrix. For example, the Greek labyrinth is a way to conceive of the matrix/body/consciousness and is also viewed as the metaphysical home of the home of the gods/Egyptian TUAT]. This is probably [my opinion] where many visit by default when journeying or dreaming = the underworld.

b) Dreams near the body and in psychological terms mostly be sorting out life problems during sleep but not really going anywhere, sort of staying in one's own space. Natives recognize these two spaces just named, a and b, and consider then all part of the global space of a. I myself view b as open to either a or c.

c) Metaphysical and material spaces created by God and not including the TUAT and its creators.

While embodied, much of a, b, and c are involuntary, even in lucid dreaming, but that is another story.
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
:yes: yeh, Rmack. That moment when the animal world opens to us, when an animal lets us in and we are open to it.

Sheer joy.

And we perceive the world so differently afterward, as another facet glows and shines and opens with their love.

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A Golden Eagle it ain't, but then they're pretty thin on the ground in my neck of the woods.
 
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