Laffy's cult doesn't have a monopoly on fraud.

Discussion in 'Cults in General' started by Rmack, Aug 29, 2009.

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  1. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    I just saw that someone had posted on this older thread.

    You know they are defunct now, right? They were a cult, and used several cult techniques to retain members, including the 'we are the only one' gag. You are always doomed if you leave any cult.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that their fall was contemporary with the internet. When you do things so contrary to the Bible while calling yourself a Bible-following church, it catches up with you.

    The 'falling out' was apparently when Mrs Steenis told them they don't have to keep looking like bums, perhaps suggesting that they would be more appealing to more conservative people. Breck just stood up and walked out, and a bunch of people followed him. The expensive building stayed in the widow's control, and the splinter group met in backyard, and then rented churches.

    I think they were at about 800 in their heyday as Faith of our Fathers, but slowly shrank over the years. I always wondered how many left when their spiritual leader blew his brains out. The ones that stayed told themselves they he succumbed to the pressure of giving God a perfect church! It's amazing how cult members can justify any obviously inconsistent behavior of their gurus.

    Jay apparently now lives off whatever financial start he had with the church money, and is suppose to own several nice properties. Very lucrative gig that professional Christian gambit.

    I wonder how much was in the bank accounts when they folded? They had a dogma that you had to give at least %10 before taxes. At least. Do the math, it had to be quite a lot.
     
  2. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    deleted
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  3. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    Since 'GoodGuy's' post was re-posted, I thought I'd re-post my responses;





    This is my response to GoodGuy's post.

    Sometimes, I've included my quotes in the dark areas containing GG's remarks. His remarks are always in caps, mine are not.






    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post



    MANY OF MARK'S OLD FRIENDS HAVE BEEN FINDING IT INTERESTING. I'M SURE HE APPRECIATES HIS LAUNDRY BEING AIRED LIKE THIS.


    As you sow, so shall you reap.






    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    WHEN MARK ARRIVED AT BETHEL, HE WAS WEARING A BLANKET AROUND HIS HEAD, SAYING HE WAS MOTHER MARY. HE WAS ON DRUGS AND SUFFERING ALREADY FROM TWO INHERITED AFFLICTIONS, OCD, AND CHRONIC DEPRESSION, BUT HE PRESENTED AS A SCHIZOPHRENIC. THE CHURCH WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN RESTORING MARK TO A PLACE WHERE HE COULD PASS A BAR EXAM.


    Mark, by his own testimony, was a 'garbage head' who would take just about anything. Getting away from that for, what, a decade? Several years anyway, was a big part of his recovery. He could have been selling Amway and still experienced healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    Well, ok, that whole field is pretty sleazy, but I think he figured as long as he wasn't breaking the law, it was ok. Don't get me started on that whole deal; I believe the medical/legal fiasco is a major cause of economic problems in the U.S.

    FULL OF JUDGMENTS


    The Bible means that you aren't suppose to pass Judgment, as in deciding what the consequences are to be on your own. Of course you're suppose to judge things and people for being right or wrong. This is a common mechanism that many Christians use to avoid using discrimination, or being evaluated.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    He was a smart man, good at his job, very personable, living the good life with his wife Mary, and four kids.

    ALL TRUE, EXCEPT THAT MARY CARRIED THE BUSINESS WHILE MARK TOOK HOURS OF NAPS AT THE OFFICE, A SYMPTOM OF HIS DEEP DEPRESSION.


    This was not the case for years when I had contact with him. Up until, maybe, 1990 or so. I actually worked at the office for a few months, and he put in regular hours and worked hard. Mary ran the admin side, while Mark negotiated with the adjusters and dealt with clients.

    For years before that, while he was going to law school, he worked as a carpenter, and before that a cab driver. We went scuba diving, took vacations, and he lived a pretty normal life. For years and years. Something like twenty from the time he joined up with Bethel Tabernacle (later; Faith of our Fathers) which would bring us up to 1990, or so when my personal knowledge of his situation stopped.

    What happened to cause him to funk out like that? He was married with kids, a good career, and a regular church goer who believed sincerely. he was arguing with Mary a lot over simple stuff, and I knew they were headed for bigger problems, but how can someone who has the Holy Spirit with him go over the edge like that?


    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    In addition, he was a member of a Christian cult.

    NO, A LEGALISTIC CHURCH, NOT A CULT. AN OUT OF BALANCE LEGALISTIC REVIVAL-ORIENTED CHURCH THAT GOT YOUR BROTHER TO MEET THE LORD AND CHANGED HIS DESTINY FROM HELL TO HEAVEN SO A LITTLE APPRECIATION MIGHT BE IN ORDER. THE CHURCH, JAY AND EVERYONE INVOLVED CHANGED OVER TIME, BUT YOU SEEM TO HAVE THEM FROZEN IN YOUR MEMORY AMONG YOUR MANY JUDGMENTS.


    It's true that I didn't have any contact with this cult from about 1990 on, but when I did, in the seventies and eighties, it was a real freak show.

    Breck was really out there. His preaching style was a robotic, rambling, tirade that had him walk a step forward, one back, one forward and WHACK! a palm strike on the podium every second arrival at it, with an emphasis on whatever word he happened to be saying at that moment. I couldn't make out what he was saying most of the time.



    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    This was 'Bethel Tabernacle' in Redondo Beach, California that he joined in the sixties. This was one of the 'Jesus freak' movements that made Life magazine at the time.

    The pastor died in a mysterious plane crash that looked a lot like suicide. The ex-junkie that took over, Breck Stevens, committed suicide in '86.

    BRO. STEENIS, THE PASTOR REFERRED TO, WAS RULED TO HAVE HAD A HEART ATTACK MID-AIR, HENCE HIS PLANE WENT DOWN. IVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE ELSE SAY SUCH A THING ABOUT HIS DEATH. THIS IS AN OUTRAGEOUS CLAIM. BRECK COMMITTED SUICIDE AS A DIRECT AND IMMEDIATE RESPONSE TO A CHURCH SPLIT THAT SPIT OUT A LOT OF CRAP AT HIM LIKE YOU ARE DOING TO MARK AND JAY.


    I heard the theory that Steenis crashed his plane on purpose from some member of the cult back in the seventies. I never heard the heart attack theory. Was forensics at the time good enough to confirm this? I don't believe so. The known facts seemed to be that the plane impacted at a high angle, strongly suggesting that the pilot wasn't trying to lessen it. Either theory would work.

    Breck was for sure a nut-job, and his suicide shows it. And it was he, not Steenis, that really made the cult what it was for the years I knew about it. When your spiritual leader kills himself, you would think that you would re-evaluate your beliefs, but this didn't seem to happen. Mark and Mary both just justified it like you did; it was the pressure that really made him do that, not anything wrong with him.

    Bullshit.


    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    The guy who took over after this; 'Jay' (forget the last name right now) changed the name to 'Faith of our Fathers'. My brother was married to his wife's sister, so they were part of an inner core, sort of.

    THEY WERE IN-LAWS NO "INNER CORE." JAY DID NOT CHANGE THE NAME. THE CHURCH BOARD INVOLVED THE ENTIRE CHURCH IN A VOTE AND THEY VOTED ON THE NAME. JAY WAS NO AUTOCRAT.

    Sorry. I was under the impression that the name was changed under his leadership. No big deal.

    I know they spent holidays together and such, so although it wasn't an official inner core, it seemed that Mark had a deeper relationship with the leader than other members. If Jay is such a great spiritual leader, how come his closest disciple freaked out so bad?

    Don't try to tell me Mark was always wacked; he did fine for decades.


    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    They were a sub-group of a Pentecostal flavor of Christianity whose main spiritual practice is what I call 'group tongues.' They would gather before and after a church 'service' in whatever facility they were renting, and babble away in 'tongues'.

    ACTUALLY OUR MAIN EXPERIENCE WAS HOURS OF PRAYER, REGULAR FASTING, FELLLOWSHIP, WORSHIP AND WITNESSING. YOU JUST GOT HUNG UP ON THE TONGUES.

    Listen, buster, I went to several of those 'services' so I know how they were conducted. Everyone showed up early and group tongued. it sounded bizarre. Then the preacher would usually start a song, with lots of jumping up, sitting down, etc. Good techniques for establishing a group mind. Then the rambling, shouting, chaotic 'preaching' would begin. Then they sometimes had guest speakers from the congregation that as far as I saw emulated the frantic style of the head guys. Afterwards; more group tongues.

    Deny it if you want, but I know from personal experience that that was the main spiritual practice that this group engaged in, which is in direct violation of some of the clearest instructions on how to run a church meeting in the Bible. It says not to do this because people will think you are mad. I saw this happen several times, not to mention my own perception, which kept me from taking the Gospel seriously for many years.

    One of the other practices that you guys did was street 'witnessing'. You should know about this. They would approach people on the street and say something like 'do you know Jesus loves you?' This sort of ambush style recruiting might have pulled in a few lost souls, but mostly it antagonized everyone in the Bay Area and sabotaged the Gospel in ways that probably resonate to this day.




    This is some freaky stuff, guys. It literally sounded like the violent ward at some mental hospital snake pit. Most of them only repeated a few, or even just a couple of syllables over and over again. And for some reason, it could only be done in some other position besides sitting normally in a chair or just standing. hands and knees butt high was a favorite starter, face down on a chair for the more adept.

    Note that although the 'gifts of the Spirit' out of the Bible may indeed exist, the book very clearly says that tongues should not be practiced when the church is assembled together, or one or two at the most, and only if there is an interpretation. It actually says you don't do this because people will think you are mad if you do! (1st Corinthians, 14-23)

    These jokers get around this (they think) by saying they don't do it 'during church' which is apparently defined by when the pastor gets up and starts raving. And I do mean raving. He doesn't just speak, he goes into a whole mechanical sort of routine, walking forward and back a couple steps, pounding his fist every second time, and get this; emphasizing what ever word he's ranting about when he does the every other arrival at the podium fist pound. Just unintelligible non-sequiter stuff to the normal ear. However, to the faithful, it seemed to sound great.






    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    (SOUNDS LIKE RACA RACA? JESUS HAD SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT CALLING BELIEVERS, JOKERS. I GUESS YOU ARE THE AUTHORITY ON TONGUES AND ALL DOCTRINES.)

    You don't have to be any kind of a Biblical expert to understand the plain, clearly stated doctrine of no group tongues when everyone comes together that is unequivocally stated in 1 Corinthians 14-23. And yes, anyone who could read that, and still think group tongues is o.k. is what I would term a 'joker'. I'm sure other terms could be applied.





    Not surprisingly, many people-even other fundamentalist Christians- thought these guys were a few clowns short of a circus, curiously just like scripture predicts.






    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    Long story short; apparently Mark's wife Mary, who was in charge of the admin end of his law practice, failed to pay doctors their share of personal injury and work comp claims, and kept the money. Mark claims it was his responsibility, and he just got behind on things, but I think he's just taking the high road and not implicating her, and by extension, Jay and his church.

    MARY WORKED VERY HARD TO KEEP THE BUSINESS AND MARK AFLOAT. SHE HAS NO FAULT IN MARK'S LOSS OF HIS BUSINESS AND LICENSE. SHE KEPT NO MONEY. MARK WAS CARRYING ON IN DECEIT EVEN TOWARD MARY. AND HOW ON EARTH WOULD THEIR BUSINESS PRACTICES REFLECT ON JAY? JAY BROUGHT CORRECTION NOT COVER-UP OR APPROVAL. MARK WAS MENTALLY ILL AND DID NOT KNOW HOW TO HANDLE MONEY. HE MADE VERY BAD DECISIONS AND HE SUFFERED THE CONSEQUENCES.


    I can't say what transpired after I left sometime around 1990, but up till then, Mary was clearly the bill-payer and office manager, so it would have been her responsibility to pay off the doctors. At the very least she would have known about the unpaid bills, and would have known what was coming long before it did.









    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    He gets disbarred, his wife leaves and becomes some kind of serious sleaze bag, cheating on him before leaving, and winding up doing porno phone calls. This is a person who was a big time 'holier than thou' true believer. It was obvious she was damaged goods, though. I could take one look at her when she was still in that cult and be pretty certain she had suffered some kind of abuse.

    YES SHE DID SUFFER SOME KIND OF ABUSE: TRYING TO MAKE LIFE WORK WITH 4 SMALL CHILDREN AND A MENTALLY ILL HUSBAND. IT WORE HER OUT TO THE CORE AND SHE HAD A CRISIS AND ACTED OUT MIGHTILY. THANKS FOR LETTING ALL HER OLD FRIENDS KNOW THE DETAILS. YOUR POST HAS REALLY GOTTEN AROUND AND I GUESS YOU SHAMED HER PRETTY GOOD. NICE JOB.

    My family has more info on this person. I don't know myself, but they swear she abused the kids.

    We all suspected that she was a gold digger, and singled out Mark because he was a law student, and figured he could provide a nice lifestyle for her, not because she loved him.

    When I knew them, they lived in a nice home, she owned a horse, and they took regular vacations and retreats.

    She seemed to me to be a very cold, calculating and deeply disturbed person. I speculated that she had been abused some time in her past, but I don't know any details.

    It seems to me she bailed out when Mark was no longer able to support her in the style she wanted.



    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    My brother then has a major nervous break down. He looses everything, his teeth rot out of his head, he becomes this semi-catatonic with a deer-in-the-headlights sort of look, and winds back up driving a cab, which he did to help finance his way through law school. Finally, he looses that job because he looses his drivers license because of unpaid child support. How does taking away a mans last livelihood help that problem, one might ask? Your tax dollars at work? Who knows?

    MARY PROPPED MARK UP FOR MANY YEARS. IT WAS ONLY BECAUSE OF HER THAT HE PRESENTED WELL, WORE CLEAN CLOTHES WENT TO THE DENTIST. AFTER SHE LEFT, HE BECAME A TYPICAL SINGLE MENTALLY DEPRESSED PERSON. JAY TOOK YOUR NIECES AND NEPHEW IN 14 YEARS AGO AND WAS TAKING THEM TO THE DENTIST, COUNSELING, TUTORING. TO THEIR BALL GAMES, BUYING THEM THEIR FIRST CARS, WHILE YOU WERE COMPARING HIM TO A SERIAL KILLER.

    Mark did just fine for years without her, holding down a job and going through law school. Up until I split, he seemed to be pulling his weight in the family.


    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    OLDEST GIRL HAS HER MASTERS IN CLINICAL COUNSELING AND GRADUATED FROM AZUSA PACIFIC UNIVERSITY AND ASHLAND THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY AND IS NOW A CLINICAL COUNSELOR. WON NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS IN SOFTBALL TOO. SOUND LIKE GROWING UP IN A CULT? NOT MUCH. SECOND DAUGHTER (I DON'T EVEN WANT TO GIVE YOU THEIR NAMES, WHICH YOU DON'T KNOW SINCE YOU NEVER CARED) GRADUATED ASU IN BUSINESS AND WAS ON THEIR NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP SOFTBALL TEAM AND MET THE PRESIDENT. YOUNGEST GIRL IS ON FULL SCHOLARSHIP NOW TO ASU SCHOOL OF JOURNALISM. THE BOY YOU CALLED PAUL, NOT HIS NAME, IS WORKING STEADILY AND JUST HAD A GREAT VISIT WITH HIS TWO DADS.

    JAY AND HIS WIFE RAISED YOUR NEPHEW AND NEICES WITHOUT THE OFFER OF ONE MINUTE OR ONE DIME OF HELP FROM YOU OR ANYONE IN YOUR FAMILY. AND FOR THIS, JAY GETS COMPARED TO A SERIAL KILLER? WOW

    I refused to have anything to do with any of them from 1990 until recently, and didn't know anything about what was going on, and never was asked for any help.

    I'm glad to hear they are doing good, although Mark has expressed his concerns about his son.

    Jay always rubbed me the wrong way, with his condescending ways, but it's nice that he had the funds to do all of that. Nice gig if you can get it, I guess.






    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    JAY IS VERY ACTIVE WITH ALL AREA MINISTERS AND HIS WIFE WRITES FOR EVERY MINISTRY AND CHRISTIAN PUBLICATION YOU COULD NAME INCLUDING FOCUS ON THE FAMILY AND CHRISTIANITY TODAY. THEY ARE CHRISTIANS WHO GREW OUT OF A MISGUIDED EARLY CHRISTIAN UNPBRINGING NOT CULT LEADERS.

    Mark also insists that Jay is OK. Fine. If they repented of their harmful and un-biblical practices, great.

    Regardless, I still have a problem with professional Christians.




    That cult is kaput now, thank God, but while it was going, Mark and a couple hundred others (it slowly shrank over the years before folding in the late 90's) contributed at least a 'tithe', which is a popular for obvious reasons adaptation of old testament precepts to give at least a tenth of your income.

    Mark gave 15%. Before taxes, or anything else. At least. I know about him donating his whole paycheck in the early days for a building fund while his widowed mom and sister starved at home. Not very Christian in my opinion. To him, he was giving the money to God. In reality, God doesn't have a bank account, and at least in the later days, Jay got all the money, and after a token charitable contribution or two, there was a shit-load left over, all tax free!






    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    MARK GAVE WHAT HE WANTED AND IT WAS NEVER 15% HIS MOM WAS NOT WIDOWED, BUT SHE DROVE OFF AND LEFT HER FAMILY WHEN HE WAS 5 YEARS OLD AND WAS NEVER A MOM TO HIM. THAT IS A BIG PART OF HIS TRAUMA AND ABUSE AND REASON FOR ILLNESS. AND SHE WAS NEVER STARVING. SHE WAS OVERWEIGHT ALL HER LIFE.

    I was referring to a time when the cult was building this new church. Mark went to a meeting and was somehow coerced into giving his entire taxicab paycheck to the fund for this. My mother and sister (not to mention Mark) where temporarily without groceries, and bills were due.

    I was just getting out of the Navy, and another brother and I showed up and the older brother helped out.

    Later, Breck lead a break away group that walked out when Steenis's widow suggeted that they could clean up the hippy look a little bit and still be spiritual, or something like that. They lost the building to her and those who stayed, and rented facilities, or met in members back yards after that.


    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    This guy is morbidly obese, I mean huge, and always dressed modestly in a white short sleeved shirt and 'Jap flaps' and drove a small, cheap car.

    ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT JAY? HE WAS OBESE FOR ABOUT A YEAR AND HAS BEEN NORMAL WEIGHT FOR DECADES. HE'S NEVER WORN A SHORT SLEEVED WHITE SHIRT IN HIS LIFE. WHAT ARE JAP FLAPS? YES HE DRIVES CHEAP CARS

    I saw him off and on for several years, and he was always huge. He lost wieght? Good for him. He was morbidly obese when he was looking down his nose and laughing at me when I suggested that, for work responsibilities and such, it might be ok for members to occationally not make every one of the four church meetings a week.

    Maybe it was Breck that wore the white shirt, but I seem to remember Jay wearing Jap flaps (a type of thong) and driving cheap cars, while living in a nice house.






    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    However, he lived in Palos Verdes in the South Bay of L.A., a very high-end neighborhood and took regular vacations to Israel and what not, and is now retired and living in this huge complex in Prescott, AZ. Nice gig, huh?


    JAY HAS BEEN MARRIED FOR 37 YEARS AND NEVER LIVED IN PALOS VERDES EVER. IT WAS HAWTHORNE, AND TORRANCE. JAY HAS NEVER BEEN TO ISRAEL. MAYBE YOU SHOULD DO SOME FACT CHECKING BEFORE PUBLISHING PEOPLE'S PERSONAL BIOS. HE HAS BEEN TO INDIA AND UGANDA ON MISSIONS DEDICATING ORPHANGES AND WELLS HE PERSONALLY HELPED BUILD AND PAY FOR. HE HAS NEVER HAD AN OVERSEAS VACATION, NOT EVEN TO HAWAII. WHAT COMPLEX? IT’S A HOUSE. SO THAT MAKES YOU A ? LIAR? SLANDERER? FALSE ACCUSER? ALL OF THE ABOVE?

    It was other members of my family that told me about overseas trips. Someone must have gotten the destination wrong. Not PV, but Torrence? Excuse me.







    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    My Brother and my nieces and maybe a nephew all still live in Prescott, and at least the girls still have some kind of contact with this Jay character. I'm currently looking for back up to go on a fact-finding mission and see what going on at this multi-million dollar complex this guy lives on now, from what I've heard.

    SOME KIND OF CONTACT? HE'S THEIR UNCLE AND SECOND DAD AND HE IS STILL HELPING SUPPORT THEM AS THEY GET ESTABLISHED. THEY DO NOT LIVE IN PRESCOTT THEY LIVE IN CA AND PHOENIX AREA. HE OWNS A MODEST BED AND BREAKFAST THAT WAS PURCHASED FOR THE SAME PRICE THEIR CA HOME SOLD FOR IN 2004. IT'S A BUSINESS AND A MINISTRY AND THEY RUN THE PRESCOTT HEALING ROOMS OUT OF IT. HERE'S SOME FACT FINDING FOR YOU: HOME COST 723 K NOT MILLIONS. BOTH JAY AND WIFE WORKED ALL THEIR LIVES FOR WHAT THEY HAVE. PLUS THEY'VE BEEN FOSTER PARENTS FOR DECADES. YOUR TYPICAL EVIL GUY. TAKING CARE OF WIDOWS, ORPHANS AND THE MENTALLY ILL. SO EVIL. MORE FACTS: JAY WAS LOWEST PAID PASTOR IN SOUTH BAY FOR DECADES AND RECEIVED AN INADEQUATE RETIREMENT AFTER MORE THAN 30 YEARS. THEY ARE SUPPORTING THEMSELVES.

    Only 700k, not millions, huh? Pardon me.

    I was going on what my aunt discribed, as I've never seen the place.

    If they are supporting themselves, what do they do besides be pro Christians? They must have had a nice nest egg to invest to own property in Pheonix, Cali, and Prescott. Or is there more?

    Whatever the case may be, it seems this professional Christian gig is pretty lucrative, wouldn't you say? I know plenty of people who worked their tails off their whole lives, and don't have nearly as much as these people seem to.






    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy View Post

    So, don't think your former cult is the only hinky game in town, guys. It's not.

    AND DON'T THINK L RON HUBBARD IS THE ONLY LIAR AROUND, HE'S NOT.

    FURTHER ON IN THIS THREAD YOU SAY YOU GOT A BAD FEELING OFF JAY, SAME AS BEING AROUND A SERIAL KILLER. THAT;S FUNNY, HE HELPS PEOPLE LEFT AND RIGHT AND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE LOVE HIM. HE LIVES MODESTLY, WORKS HARD, PRAYS BY THE HOUR, TAKES BUMS TO THE LAUNDRY AND HELPED MOVE YOUR BROTHER UP HERE TO HELP TAKE CARE OF HIM WHEN YOU AND CAROL WOULD NOT HELP YOUR OWN BROTHER. WE HEARD ABOUT HOW MARK ASKED FOR HELP BUT IT WAS NOT CONVENIENT FOR YOU. YOU LITERALLY SAID THAT. YOU’VE NEVER INVESTED ONE HOUR OR ONE DIME HELPING YOUR BROTHER OR HIS CHILDREN, YET JAY HELPS HIS EX-BROTHER-IN-LAW NON STOP AND RAISED YOUR NEICES AND NEPHEW. WHO IS THE BETTER MAN HERE?

    MAYBE READ THAT LITTLE BLURB BY SPENCER THAT YOU QUOTE AGAIN. A LITTLE INVESTIGATION WOULD HAVE SAVED A LOT OF OTHERS FEELINGS.

    AND MODERATORS, NO ACTION WAS TAKEN WHEN THESE SLANDERS WERE POINTED OUT TO YOU. IT’S NOT OKAY TO NAME AND ACCUSE EX-SCIENTOLOGISTS BUT ITS OKAY TO DO TO CHRISTIANS? SEEMS THAT WAY. PLEASE REMOVE THIS WHOLE THING. YOU ARE SHAMING AND HURTING REAL PEOPLE.

    RAY YOU HAVE SOME CLEAN-UP WORK TO DO WITH YOUR VERY FORGIVING BROTHER. HOW DO YOU LIKE YOUR NAME OUT THERE FOR ANYONE TO READ? MARK DIDN’T LIKE IT EITHER.

    It's nice that Jay can help all those people. I know that my brother contributed huge amounts of money to Jay and his church over the decades. I believe him when he says he gave 15%.

    Mark sprang it on me that he wanted to move in with my wife and I as we were coming back from New Mexico after visiting my other dying brother. I told him we needed to prepare for that, as we live in a very modest condo, and just make ends meet.

    I spent a goodly amount of time trying to see if I could get someone local to the Prescott area to help him, to no real avail. If anyone should be obligated to help him out, it would be the guy who he helped support in what I would consider a nice, easy life; being a professional Christian, giving a few lectures a week and doing whatever he decided to do.

    It seems to me that you can contribute to a few charities to make it look good, and still have a nice chunk left over. He seems to have wound up pretty well off from doing just this.

    Later, it seemed Mark was doing alright, and besides giving him some money a couple of times, I confess to being releaved at not having to do more, as I'm not well off myself.

    To conclude; I may be mistaken about the exact facts. I based much of what I assumed on reports from my other family members because, as I said, I cut ties with the whole lot of them after my treatment working for Mark and Mary some twenty years ago.

    Last edited by Rmack; 18th August 2010 at 07:31 AM.


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    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is condemnation without investigation."
    Herbert Spencer

    "In my Fathers house are many mansions"
    Jesus

    "There's no place like home!"
    Dorothy



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    19th August 2010, 12:13 AM #40




    Rmack



    Rmack is online now Van Allen Belt Sunbather Rmack's Avatar
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    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  4. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    I only met this boy (I guess he's a man now) a couple of times in my life, and only once for a few minutes when he wasn't a young child. I have so many, many nieces and nephews, it's incredible.

    Anyway, I did get his name mixed up with someone else, but I remember it now. I also am a lot wiser about putting real names on the internet now.

    When I first started this thread, I was pretty naïve. I thought we were in a 'members only' area or something, and I wrote only for ex-scientologists. I know better now.
     
  5. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    Since this old thread got resurrected, I'd like to sum up;

    I consider my brother a victim of a cult, period.

    I've studied the mind a bit, and I suspect that he just couldn't face the fact that a church that he thought was the one, true church (no kidding, he once told me he thought they were the only ones doing it right!) was slowing going away.

    He lead a fairly normal, healthy life after joining and getting off drugs. He always worked, at least as much as the several 'services' a week let him, and put himself through law school. Well, he had some financial aid from an elderly Christian, I heard, but he worked while doing it.

    I left working for his law office in disgust because he wanted to pay me rock-bottom wages while giving %15 percent to that cult. It was too much like Scientology.

    I simply refused to have anything to do with him or his cult, so I had no knowledge of what was going on for decades. Apparently, sometime after I quit having any contact, something went badly wrong with my brother.

    He was fine when I had last seen him. I knew his marriage was in deep trouble, but he wasn't 'mentally ill' at the time.

    Quite a long time later, when I heard the story of what had happened, I was shocked. Scientology hadn't done a huge bunk yet as it was about to, so I didn't really appreciate the full effect the internet was having on cults.

    Anyway, my brother was always very stubborn. I believe he was not going to admit he was wrong about that cult, no matter what evidence built up, and he finally just snapped.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  6. Hinda

    Hinda New Member

    I found this by searching for Faith of Our Fathers church. I have lurked a bit here a time or two -and want to add my two cents. Not any gossip because I don't remember names, really.

    In the early 70's, Bethel Tabernacle was across the street from Perry Park, where we held our junior high school dances. We'd hear the cacophonous prayer meetings and try to peek in the windows of the church. We'd speculate like kids do about them biting the heads off of live fishes. I think we were disappointed to see the folks sitting on the floor, praying. Still, having everyone babble at once seemed very wrong to me (even though I did not yet know the Bible.)

    Years later in about 1976, I met some Jesus Freak girls from FOF - not knowing there was any connection with BT. I went witnessing with them - but they were so insistent that we do it every single day, it seemed strange to me. And there were at least four church services/meetings per week , not counting the prayer meetings in tongues. For so much meeting and getting together, there was precious little discipling going on.

    I was only about 15 or 16 and I remember being in a prayer meeting at The Neptune Hall in Manhattan Beach. I was sitting on the floor with everyone - and the babbling was just too much to bear. Besides, my legs were falling asleep. So I got up and left. I went to the beach.

    I encountered FOF again before 1980, being invited by a friend from work...IIRC, some nights the meetings were held in a different church in Gardena. again endless testimonies counted as church service, followed by the surreal sessions of praying in tongues. By then I had read what Paul warned about in 1 Cor 14 that it does no good to pray in tongues if it doesn't edify the church. Yeah, I was saved, but I was not being taught. Not discipled...not edified. So I left again. I just knew that this was not what Jesus had in mind.
    .
    RMack, I hope you are doing well. Thank you for your thorough postings. This was all I could find (and a video, as I recall) about Faith of Our Fathers.
     
  7. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    @Hinda,

    So called "Speaking in Tongues" was not unique to Christianity.

    This practice originally came from some pagan religions and was accepted by Paul (Saul of Tarsus) and renamed as a "gift" of the Holy Spirit. Although, this particular so-called "gift" was placed far down in his list of importance.

    Also, many items in the Synoptic Gospels about the life of Yeshua (Jesus) are borrowed from ancient Egyptian myths.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018

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