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Landmark Forum = Scientology Light ?

JBWriter

Happy Sapien
The blog post begins with this:

MY (SCARY, DESTRUCTIVE) BRUSH WITH SCIENTOLOGY LIGHT

So. Is it a cult? Technically, no. But, if it walks like cult, talks like a cult, and preys on people like a cult, it just might be Landmark.

Everyone told me not to go.

“It’s a cult, Sarah. Don’t get sucked in!”

“The Landmark Forum? It’s like ‘Scientology Light.’ Run the opposite direction!”

To read further:


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNHL2Hze4ruIr9Z0F7zqBGRFIqItdQ&cad=rja

JB.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
Definitely cult-like.

I know a few people who've gotten into it.

They are either cult addicts or simply not very smart.

And every new cult is "Finally, this is the one!"

Bleh.

TG1

P.S. That crowd reminds me of those very primitive kinds of creatures in the sea of identical cells that form a big organism blob of identical cells. In other words, they yearn to be exactly like every other unit around them and grow into each other. Erk!
 

RogerB

Crusader
Yes, Landmark Forum morphed out of Est.

Est was based on Scn TR's and other Scn practices, but the idiots running the show became monstrously abusive, and and Est got such a bad rap it had to wrap up. The believers in the money making caper and "benefits" then set up Landmark Forum.

It has many similarities to Scn practices and even uses some of the Scn/Wise tricks for getting converts and businesses to use the practitioners to run seminars in businesses.

Run for cover!!

Rog
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
On a related note...


A post today from deep within the Underground Bunker (Tony Ortega's blog):


Pennsylvania Lawsuit Is Not About Scientology, But It’s Funny

We noticed folks yesterday getting excited about a partial story at the Lexis news site, Law360.com, which indicated that a company named Gap International had filed a lawsuit in state court against some unnamed people who had anonymously called the company a “cult” and “compared it to Scientology.”


Well, we have the documents now, and it looks like this has nothing to do with Scientology itself. But we’re going to be very careful, because this Gap International — a business consulting firm which has nothing to do with Gap Stores, apparently — is both litigious and, well, stupid.


Why we say that is that Gap Int originally filed this suit in federal court, whining over some bad online reviews that probably only a few people saw. The first one it referred to was written by someone claiming to be a former employee who said the company was run by people into the Landmark Forum — an EST offshoot that the writer said was “a cousin to Scientology.” (For the best all-time story about Landmark Forum, read our old friend Alan Prendergast’s amazing piece <snip>

Read Full Post:
http://tonyortega.org/2013/09/22/the-scientology-guide-to-craigslist/#more-10266
(scroll down to below "Scientology's Guide to Craig List)
 
“Thumb-sucking dependency” (the polar opposite of the virtue I celebrate: self-reliance) isn’t new in America. It’s just increasingly dominant.

It started its rise in the 60′s and hasn’t slowed. In the 70′s, when I asked Werner Erhard to sum up his personal growth thing, EST, he said “We preach independence but breed dependence.”

http://dankennedy.com/blog/small-bu...-marketing-tip-capitalize-on-the-tumbsuckers/

PS.: Dan Kennedy is one of the most known and respected small business marketing expert on the field. He studied heavely on deep psychology aspects of what make people buy.

PPS.: I think there are good things on EST/Landmark (or there were). The problem is that the cult free you from something, while It put you into their own system. You exit a prison to enter a new one.
 

In present time

Gold Meritorious Patron
On a related note...


A post today from deep within the Underground Bunker (Tony Ortega's blog):
yep, i was gonna mention to's post today, it had a page to a 10 page article about landmark/est.

when i fell into scn. back in the late 70's it was a real toss up for me between eckankar or est.
scn. snapped me up because of a door to door bookselller that came to my door.

i was already checking out every book in the library about religions, so i was low hanging fruit. no doubt about it.
 

Reasonable

Silver Meritorious Patron
I did EST around 1991 just before I got into Scientology ( out of the frying pan and into the fire). Basically it was a 2 day group processing session where they did a sort of dianetics session on a few individuals and got you to go into your own head to process yourself.

They did some other things like getting you to find out your overts (not in those words) and to call the people and apologize.

Then they guilted you into getting other people to come to graduation and get them to do "The Work."

Then they tried to sell a book called "Assassination of Werner Erhard by 60 Minutes and the church of Scientology".

For sure it was Scientology light but really was not that expensive and yes they got volunteers that they did not have to pay, but no real slave labor, no disconnection. No real harm. It was a novelty act.

They really played with your emotions and everybody was bearing their souls, the girls were really vulnerable so I got a lot of phone numbers of girls who felt "connected to me" so in the next few months I had a lot of fun.

Parents....advise your daughters to stay away.
If you are a young guy….Sign up today!
 

myrklix

Patron with Honors
Well, I have to confess that I did the Landmark Education trilogy of courses -- the Forum, the Advanced Course and (can't remember the third) -- at the Boston-area center around 12+ years ago. While I felt parts of it were beneficial I came away from it using the exact same words as this thread: Scientology Light. I'd been in Scn in the '80's and early '90's. My personal opinion was that, after Scn, it didn't feel much like a cult in comparison. While there was a bit of hard-sell while in the courses to bring in friends/family I never seemed to get all those follow-up phone calls that I was used to in Scn.

I would have to say that third course (whatever its name), which I think took place over several weekends, actually encouraged producing a positive effect on one of your communities (outside of Landmark) without any insistence that you tell that community that the impetus was coming from Landmark. I thought that was pretty cool after Scn wanted everything to come back around to them. Incidentally, I attended some other event that I thought was quite positive for its community and only found out, quite accidentally, that it was also one of these projects.

So, in some ways, perhaps a cult, perhaps Scn Light. Overall a positive experience for me but for others I've run into who've done the Landmark thing, not such a positive experience.

Just my 2-cents...
 

Loohan

Am I Mettaya?
Wow (referring to the OP article), locking people up for a weekend, disallowing toilet breaks, etc.
with the desired EP of everyone "getting It".
That sounds exactly like descriptions of EST that i read in the effing '70s.

I never did EST, but was invited in 1975 to attend a free event as an EST guest. I was totally naive and open-minded going in, but it still weirded me out.
EST completions were giving wacky "wins". I remember one couple laughing about how they came back from their EST workshop only to find that the person they had trusted to take care of their house had let the pipes freeze and burst in the cold. But hahaha, that didn't bring them down because they were flying high on "It".
 

Smurf

Gold Meritorious SP
In 1977, Burt Reynolds & Kris Kristofferson co-starred in "Semi-Tough" which parodies Werner Erhard & his EST.. referred to in the film as "B.E.A.T."

One of the rules of EST was that one could only leave the room to use the bathroom only at pre-designated bathroom break times & attendees that tried to use the restroom at any other time, were physically blocked from leaving the room. If they objected to this, they were informed they could leave the room, but would not be allowed to return for the training & their fees would not be refunded to them.

I recall in the film a comical moment where a woman stands up in the room & proclaims "I just peed my pants and I feel great". (sadly, there was no YouTube capture of this scene.. it was hilarious.)

[video=youtube;xSmcTHRGto0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSmcTHRGto0[/video]

[video=youtube;DbdvzQqvPEE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbdvzQqvPEE[/video]

Now, the real thing..

[video=youtube;Kt_RuSvFvS0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt_RuSvFvS0[/video]
 

haiqu

Patron Meritorious
Geoff Filbert gives Werner Erhard (founder of Est/Forum) quite a serve in Excalibur Revisited, and justly so.

There are a swag of other Scientology derivatives.
 

KingRay

New Member
"They are either cult addicts or simply not very smart."

Definitely a one-shot pony in this post; it's 2019 and I couldn't disagree more with almost everything said in here. Well, I am neither dumb or a cult addict; I'm borderline genius and just into things that improve my life 10-fold. I ended up with a six-figure income because of the courage to take risks, that were provided by this business. So, who's not very smart? LOL I find everything in this blog to be pretty amusing. I guess then, 12-step programs are a cult, eh? Or perhaps churches around the country? I'm also not a robot who speaks the language of Landmark ad-nausea. In fact, I don't. I went through the curriculum back in the 1990's, and became an Introduction Leader for them in 1993. The passing of my mother drew me away, and there's still not a day that goes by where I'm not coming from the fearlessness created by all the seminars I've done. You get out of something what you put into something, and a strong mind cannot be seduced into doing things it doesn't want to do.
Sitting there cross-armed, to prove them wrong, is a waste of your money and time. Some come back, because they see the impact it's having on others, so they stick around, uncross their arms, and actually try the techniques on like a coat. Oh, the seminar that someone in here is talking about is the Self Expression & Leadership Program ... that is focused on projects in your communities. I'm in the seminar right now, and it lasts @3 months. Do they use language to teach? Sure they do, but what industry doesn't? It's just a foreign-language to you who haven't partaken. If you sat around listening to software consultants, you'd think they were robots, too. No, they are proficient in their practice, that's all; you just don't understand what they're talking about, because you are on the outside looking in. LOL
After a 24-year hiatus, I returned and still have breakthroughs in my life. Just quicker with the aid of the seminars. I am an elder now, and quite different than I was in my 30's. I wouldn't get into Scientology if you paid me to, therefore, this isn't that. It isn't even cult-like. It's just non-traditional and of course, triggers many people's suspicious nature. It's called ontology, and none of it came from Scientology. Then again, if you want agreement about anything, you'll find it on the internet (hahahaha). So, do I sound like a Landmark robot? Naaaaaa; I used one word thus far. Well, I will give you another one. People are running rackets about themselves and things that spark their superstitions.
I'm not religious in any way, and couch-critics are just that. No different than fans talking about professional athletes; they know nothing about what it is (or takes) to be a pro-athlete, but will critique them all day long. Make bets, lose, then talk sh_t about the team and players. Folks don't even have to gamble to lose their minds and be critical of sports. Some people even know the language, but it's similar across any league, isn't it? Oh, who the hell am I to be saying these things? I am the son of a professional baseball Hall-of-Fame athlete; that's who I am! I also have over 35 years of sobriety/clean-time; I do have a spirituality-based belief system that I created from 12-step programs, spiritual practices, religion, and many other places. I recruit nobody, but I do make a difference in the world ... with or without Landmark.
 
I did both courses. The Est and the Landmark. The Est was the superior course, Now doubt about that, I did it in LA in early times when still fresh and inexpensive. In the Landmark, to their credit, they have the sense to help you out to do more courses. I understand that Werner was ruined by a court case by his daughters who claimed they were molested as children. They apologized later and said they had been misled into false memories by a New Zealand group who took that sort of thing all over the world.

They kept on telling us in Landmark how the group is run by friends and relatives, who agreed to run the show until Werner sorted things out. Things were sorted out, but Werner had received a public death notice. As a smart cookie he had people like Stephen Hawking and Richard Branson as friends, and friends like those don’t come easily. He then moved on into teaching upper management courses and was very successful at it.

Of course, Scn was out to get him. How could Hubbard hope to compare to Werner who had no health problems? He was not out to get them. I went to see him at a meeting, and he gave them nothing but praise Scn. I don’t if he is retired, but he is over 80 now.

Just lately I have been reading books by Alan Watts and to my surprise I was doing an EST course all over again. Perhaps after Alan died his kids sold the book rights to Werner, for Werner got it right, to make a dollar you must spend a dollar. Alan is the original person here and cannot be accused of ‘stealing’ from Scn. I don’t know if Ron had taken anything from Alan, if so he made a mess of explaining the mystery of Zen. (Ah, so I now see it all, Mister Hubbard. That finger not point at moon - but point up ass!)

Another thing is Alan, as an ex-priest of the Church of England, didn’t accept reincarnation in a direct way. Neither does Landmark. However, Est did, and in a big way. I found Werner’s teachings as having more meaning. I “got it” which was the final realization of the course. I’m now wondering if the ‘friends and relatives’ mean of Alan Watts.
 
If the story's worth telling, it's worth telling twice, eh DK?
Thanks for pointing that out. For some unknown reason I couldn't find my letter, so I posted again on the board. Looks like there may have been some confusion along the way. Oh well, whip my ass. The link with Alan Watts is important for those who study these things. It was not just Scientology that Werner used, but Zen Buddhism, something with a lot more to it. The funny thing about Zen is the double meanings that make you realize the world instead of just looking at it.
 

KingRay

New Member
I did both courses. The Est and the Landmark. The Est was the superior course, Now doubt about that, I did it in LA in early times when still fresh and inexpensive. In the Landmark, to their credit, they have the sense to help you out to do more courses. I understand that Werner was ruined by a court case by his daughters who claimed they were molested as children. They apologized later and said they had been misled into false memories by a New Zealand group who took that sort of thing all over the world.

They kept on telling us in Landmark how the group is run by friends and relatives, who agreed to run the show until Werner sorted things out. Things were sorted out, but Werner had received a public death notice. As a smart cookie he had people like Stephen Hawking and Richard Branson as friends, and friends like those don’t come easily. He then moved on into teaching upper management courses and was very successful at it.

Of course, Scn was out to get him. How could Hubbard hope to compare to Werner who had no health problems? He was not out to get them. I went to see him at a meeting, and he gave them nothing but praise Scn. I don’t if he is retired, but he is over 80 now.

Just lately I have been reading books by Alan Watts and to my surprise I was doing an EST course all over again. Perhaps after Alan died his kids sold the book rights to Werner, for Werner got it right, to make a dollar you must spend a dollar. Alan is the original person here and cannot be accused of ‘stealing’ from Scn. I don’t know if Ron had taken anything from Alan, if so he made a mess of explaining the mystery of Zen. (Ah, so I now see it all, Mister Hubbard. That finger not point at moon - but point up ass!)

Another thing is Alan, as an ex-priest of the Church of England, didn’t accept reincarnation in a direct way. Neither does Landmark. However, Est did, and in a big way. I found Werner’s teachings as having more meaning. I “got it” which was the final realization of the course. I’m now wondering if the ‘friends and relatives’ mean of Alan Watts.
There were way more things that went into the creation of both programs, i.e., EST & Landmark. Not sure why you're hung up on Werner; the Forum Leaders own Landmark and Werner serves as an advisor and consults for businesses. He is old and not in the best health anymore. As many times as I've done the first program of the series, and ended up doing the Introduction Leader Program (and other seminars in the curriculum), there's nothing spiritual or religious about the way they conduct any of their programs. It's a technology ... based on ontology & language; not some kind of twisted Scientology ordeal. So, maybe I'm missing the point of what you're saying here and why.

Everything I think and say about Landmark doesn't mean I agree with it all. The fact that only 2 million people have participated is a smidget of impact in the world. No advertising ... no targeting of business, politics, religion, racism, bigotry, phobias and things tearing this world apart, I side-eye all of that in the face of them being a Worldwide business that is about everybody and everyone. Hmmmmmm... I still enjoy what I have gotten out of participating in their seminars, and my life took off like a rocket in the 90's. I had done other things, so I don't hang my hat solely on what I've done with them. Still, HUGE impact on my life. Couldn't get there with reading books ... I tell you that! :) Took a 24-year break and something else drove me back to see the impact on life as an elder now. Good stuff!
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
The funny thing about Zen is the double meanings that make you realize the world instead of just look at it.
:oops:
I've studied (buddhism suttras) and practiced ( mindfulness meditation) zen for 20 years but don't understand what you are meaning (double meanings)

Are you talking about Koans????

Also, to realize the true nature of the mind, world, life, one has to deeply look at it to understand
the impermanency, inter dependancy and emptyness...I never ever met one who became suddenly enlightened..neither the Dalai-Lama..

Only oncle Ron realized, one day , ( the day he wanted money from buddhists monks) he des the enlightened western bouddha:D
 
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