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Leon's Discussions (snipped from another thread)

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Re: Clearing Course Concerns

Scientologists are not allowed to play with "the little (speak for yourself) toys mother nature installed", because AFAIK Miscavige has forbidden it. Anyway, this would only apply to boys, as girls don't do that sort of thing as we all know.


1) Since it is forbidden till Dr Hubtard research & discoveries... you bet it's one of the most ''profitable reading item'' - one that brings much money in the coffers (sec checks)...week after week....as we all know !

2) yes, girls don't do that sort of thing as we all know

(except Asian girls....boys all know it)

3) No intend of me to derail this thread :biggrin:

:wave:
 

WildKat

Gold Meritorious Patron
Taking into account Helluvahoax hasn't posted on this thread I find it unlikely he's looking for this audience you speak of. As for the rest, people can speak up as they please, there's no secret motive, hidden agenda going on, try though you might inferring there is.

$cientology can be an uncomfortable subject, especially for $cientologists because they don't want to hear about what a lying deceptive abusive fraud Elcon was and how damaging the $cientology cult is to a person's well being and health. Projecting the blame onto people who care enough to speak out against $cientology is ridiculous.


Wanting an end to a mob-like criminally abusive cult makes a person a zealot? Speaking out against $cientology is a form of extremism? Because I used to be $cientologist with an understanding of how the cult works with its dirty tricks smearing and deceiving people I'm at fault for saying $cientology needs to end?

Plenty of never-ins speak out like Tony Ortega, Jamie DeWolf, Lawrence Wright, and Paulette Cooper for example. Does that make them extremist zealots too?

In essence, you're talking in specious generalities.

I didn't say speaking out was a form of extremism. I speak out too. It may be a fine distinction, but if someone wants to do Scn, without the abuses, I say that's their right.

Speaking out about the abuse and educating people is a good thing. Obsessively trying to destroy the subject entirely is both impossible and fanatical, in my opinion. And sometimes ends up further cementing people into the cult.

I know we could go on forever debating about whether it's really Scn if the abuse is removed. But if an independent wants to try to do that, I'm not going to try to tell them they can't.

This is not an endorsement of any of these groups, I guess it's just a defense of freedom of thought and practice. Again, it's the abuse that should be highlighted and stopped.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
"Scientology is the whole enchilada, not a few tasty chillis plucked from the sauce spooned on top."

However one has the opportunity to take the few tasty chillis
and the sauce and ignore the rest.

Leon,

First off, I didn't lie. I'm not even going to discuss that as a possibility. You see it differently. As expected, we disagree.

In the middle of all of that was an important point I was trying to make and it wasn't about L Ron Hubbard. Let's set aside our opinions on Hubbard for the moment. This is about auditing, about the tek, about counseling. I don't want a firefight with you, I really don't. Obviously I did not make my point very well the first time around, so I'm going to try again. JUST this point, please.

What's completely ironic about this is that I did have some wins on some things in scn and it was the day I wrote that original post to you when I really realized this, after chatting with a couple of really great exes here on ESMB. The trouble was, I couldn't 'have' those wins because of the incredibly abusive constraints and defined EPs and defined goals and defined grade chart and conditions also set out by scientology. I couldn't 'have' those wins because of emeters defining for me (through the C/S or auditor or solo) what was important according to whether they did a wiggle to the right or left and how long the movement was, etc. I couldn't 'have' those wins because of prepared correction lists that intentionally omitted questions relating to L Ron Hubbard (or other mgmt or other execs or policies of scn) being fucked up, or even the use of correction lists in the first place because, for God's sake, just ask me and I'll have a better answer than any correction list. For these and a hundred or more other reasons, (you have an MU, quicky grades, it was overrun, there was an SP on your lines...blah blah blah to infinity) it was built into scientology in every direction I turned that there would be a mold of some kind, a 'predictable' result and you know what, Leon?

Free individuals are not predictable and they can't be pegholed into a nice, neat slot. The more free they are, the less they can be controlled. Scientology was all about control, about being 'gungho' for the group, about expanding it, defending it.

None of scn was about me. None of scn addressed me. Like anyone else who did scn, I tried addressing my personal life and goals anyway, but was diverted in this direction or the other or the other instead. Diversion after diversion after diversion to fit me into the peghole to become an ideal, KSW abiding scientologist.

A scientologist is pretty far from an operating individual, and even further from a free spirit, because they have to make far too many compromises and redefine their goals and thoughts according to the Hubbardian way.

For starters, I didn't want to be a thetan. I had my own spiritual concepts and mine weren't the same as Hubbard's. It just got worse from there.

I understand that since I did all my scientology as an SO member, that things were more extreme for me than many public, but I'm seeing the posts from recovering public ex-scns differently now too, and see that they pretty much had the same problem, i.e., 'how can I be free when all you want to do is fit me in a peghole and control me and make me work for your benefit?'

In scn lingo, that's suppression. Scn is both freeing and oppressive at the same time. It's a real mind fuck. For me, it ALWAYS was both. That's built right into scientology tek.

Believe me when I tell you that realizing the full impact of this has made a great difference to me. because I now know in the most personal, intimate way the biggest mindfuck I ever had in scn should have actually been the biggest win of my 9 years and 43 or so folders. The controls, the constraints, the defined EPs, the expectations, even the C/Sing - fucked it up royally. Because they followed standard tek.

When I said that any counselor with an agenda isn't going to really help anyone, I meant that with all my heart. It is true. The agenda is built right into scn, from correction lists to defined 'EPs' to Hubbard's concept of exterior to remolding a person's goals around scn to... its just an integral part of scn, in every single bulletin, every single policy - evaluation and molding.

So people get better in spite of scientology. There you go.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
I didn't say speaking out was a form of extremism. I speak out too. It may be a fine distinction, but if someone wants to do Scn, without the abuses, I say that's their right.

Key phrase, 'without the abuses.' It is my opinion the abuses are built right into each and every technical bulletin and policy. Pick one, any of them, and I'll be happy to point it out.

You were too quick to judge. You are welcome to have your personal viewpoint that the abuses are not contained within the technical parts of scn. I disagree with you. That is a difference of opinion. Calling others with different opinions extremists is ridiculous.

I think a few people are doing a great job squirreling it, though. They don't use the original shit and don't call it scientology, either, cause it's not.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
That's a good post, Sheila. Thank you for it. I recognize your arguments and their validity.

Sad but true, the term "standard tech", which originally meant something like "that which work and produces good results", progressively got changed into "a robotic sameness applied by all". And yes, this does to a great extent negate the validity of the individual. It's why I would never join the Sea Org, why I would not be a particle for them to shunt around, and why I got booted out in the end.

I recall a preclear I took on who was totally bogged and on whom no one could get any results. I took her on on the agreement with the C/S that I would get no cramming orders until I had gotten her flying and doing well. I threw the correction lists out and audited her on actual processes and audited her purely by observation of the indicators on her face. It took me two sessions and she was laughing and enjoying life again.

many of the so-called "remedies" that were introduced into the tech were just plain lousy substitutes for the auditor paying attention to what the preclear was saying, or was being prevented from saying. Hundreds of cases were buggered up by this. I don't think I have used a single correction list in the past twenty years or more of auditing. I refuse to. That would never go down in the Orgs.

So I share your feelings in many regards.


Be well.:thumbsup:
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
I remember too the guy who I trained under - his name was Vivian Erikson - and he was always something of a supervisor with a lot oof instructor mixed into him. In spite of him having been on the original calss 8 course. Anyway, I can hear him right now

"Just fukin'well LISTEN to what your preclear says".
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I didn't say speaking out was a form of extremism. I speak out too. It may be a fine distinction, but if someone wants to do Scn, without the abuses, I say that's their right.

Speaking out about the abuse and educating people is a good thing. Obsessively trying to destroy the subject entirely is both impossible and fanatical, in my opinion. And sometimes ends up further cementing people into the cult.

I know we could go on forever debating about whether it's really Scn if the abuse is removed. But if an independent wants to try to do that, I'm not going to try to tell them they can't.

This is not an endorsement of any of these groups, I guess it's just a defense of freedom of thought and practice. Again, it's the abuse that should be highlighted and stopped.

Hi Wildcat,

I sincerely and honnestly can't figure out how one can apply $cientology on others
(what he\she do to hinlesf\herself is his\her business )
without the abuses :unsure:

Practicing $cientology with others means at leat auditing them and using ethics

The abuses are rooted IN the auditing and IN the ethics..all way lon within the tech. :confused2:

Personaly, I don't feel concerned with people choice to apply $cientology to themselve - No problemo with me, nor with many according to my inderstanding.

And I don't feel obsessive compulsive to speak out about the abuses that is the Whole subject of $cientology applied to people. The less I can do...is to make sure I don't let lies and abusive people to fool people twice...especially those who leaves the church very disturbed...and may come here to be preached the same bulshit twice.

Otherwise, if any wants to fuck his mind with Hubtard retard exorcism..well..its their right to do so and I assume they are big enough to make their own choice.

I always have considered that people who praise the tech and hubtard to people we find here..are pretty much lucky , as ESMBers are not that obsessive , very decent people to them...
They are pretty much extraordinary in being opened mind and frankly I have learned a lot from them..in terms of tolerance.

The only people who seesm to have complaints seems to be a few Freakzooners...
Okay..what did they expected ????? A funny $cientologists social circle to share wins about the tehk ???? Wll there is certainly other place they can find people to
ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR WINS AND VALIDATE THEIR GAINS (since the mindfuck can only hold with such constant procedure to acknowledge and validate...like we do with small kids..)

If some could ever figure out how much people her have been screwed up with auditing and ethics..the standars one by Dear Dr Hubtard...a way they don't even talk about it on the board...if those ''offended' could just have what they endlessely ask for...empathy...everything would be fine. Some freezoners have got it and leave people alone with Zeeeeeeeee tehhhhhhhhhhk that work (screw people...)

I don't have any compassion for those (childish) complaints, and appreciate that some people don't give up in speaking the truth..since I am pretty much done with it.

Many don't forget they have been those $cientologists practitionners..it certainly explains people remains gentle and keep going on , friendly, with discussion...and patience.
 
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Free to shine

Shiny & Free
I remember too the guy who I trained under - his name was Vivian Erikson - and he was always something of a supervisor with a lot oof instructor mixed into him. In spite of him having been on the original calss 8 course. Anyway, I can hear him right now

"Just fukin'well LISTEN to what your preclear says".

That's the basis of any true connection, actually listening to someone.
So simple, and you don't need guidelines of any kind, including scientology, to do that.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Leon-2;1 098703 said:
That's a good post, Sheila. Thank you for it. I recognize your arguments and their validity.

Sad but true, the term "standard tech", which originally meant something like "that which work and produces good results", progressively got changed into "a robotic sameness applied by all". And yes, this does to a great extent negate the validity of the individual. It's why I would never join the Sea Org, why I would not be a particle for them to shunt around, and why I got booted out in the end.

:no:

Sheila simply said

Sheila
Key phrase, 'without the abuses.' It is my opinion the abuses are built right into each and every technical bulletin and policy. Pick one, any of them, and I'll be happy to point it out.


Sheila said: In every technical bulletin and policy

She didn't say In the sea Ogre neighter in robotic application.:no:


Sheila said: In every technical bulletin and policy

It means

in any $cientology material known as tehk written by LRH - green or red - later changed\modified, or not, doesn't matter..the true essence remains.
:eyeroll:

Also Squirreled or not..its an abusive system, because was intented to simply be a mind manipulation system. And is considered to be so from any Professional psychologist\sociologist who had look at it and shared their observation available on the web.
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
That's the basis of any true connection, actually listening to someone.
So simple, and you don't need guidelines of any kind, including scientology, to do that.

I suppose all Leon (and a few others) want is to be truly heard too ... but I can't genuinely be here for them because I don't want to hear that scio is good ... and can only ever manage to give them a very shallow (and phony) sciolike "ack" at best ... and (funnily enough) that doesn't seem to be what they want to receive, what they seem to want is to feel real understanding and communication.

Ironic isn't it?



 
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Gib

Crusader
That's a good post, Sheila. Thank you for it. I recognize your arguments and their validity.

Sad but true, the term "standard tech", which originally meant something like "that which work and produces good results", progressively got changed into "a robotic sameness applied by all". And yes, this does to a great extent negate the validity of the individual. It's why I would never join the Sea Org, why I would not be a particle for them to shunt around, and why I got booted out in the end.

I recall a preclear I took on who was totally bogged and on whom no one could get any results. I took her on on the agreement with the C/S that I would get no cramming orders until I had gotten her flying and doing well. I threw the correction lists out and audited her on actual processes and audited her purely by observation of the indicators on her face. It took me two sessions and she was laughing and enjoying life again.

many of the so-called "remedies" that were introduced into the tech were just plain lousy substitutes for the auditor paying attention to what the preclear was saying, or was being prevented from saying. Hundreds of cases were buggered up by this. I don't think I have used a single correction list in the past twenty years or more of auditing. I refuse to. That would never go down in the Orgs.

So I share your feelings in many regards.


Be well.:thumbsup:

I don't believe what you write, and why should I?
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
lol

If I'd have just a bit more testosterone in the brain ...life would sometimes be so easier....:eyeroll:
 
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strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
Re: Clearing Course Concerns

1) Since it is forbidden till Dr Hubtard research & discoveries... you bet it's one of the most ''profitable reading item'' - one that brings much money in the coffers (sec checks)...week after week....as we all know !

I remember all too well how embarrassed I was about a certain incident in my sex-life that I felt uncomfortable about divulging in session. My auditor eventually stopped trying to get it out of me and I ended up in qual with just about every auditor in the org doing all they could to extract the information from me (out of session). As it happens it was a laughably trivial detail and looking back I can't really see what all the fuss was about, but I was embarrassed about it at the time nonetheless. Now I see how important it was to them to persuade me to 'come clean' about it.

2) yes, girls don't do that sort of thing as we all know

(except Asian girls....boys all know it)

Ah, Asian girls! I've fantasised all my life about having a Japanese girlfriend, but sadly it just never happened.
 
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strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
<snipped patronising response to JS's post>

Sad but true, the term "standard tech", which originally meant something like "that which work and produces good results", progressively got changed into "a robotic sameness applied by all".

No Leon, the term 'standard tech' meant 'A definite level or degree of quality that is proper and adequate for a specific purpose'.

If you were half the scientologist you would have us believe you are, you would know that.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
That's a good post, Sheila. Thank you for it. I recognize your arguments and their validity.

Thank you.

Sad but true, the term "standard tech", which originally meant something like "that which work and produces good results", progressively got changed into "a robotic sameness applied by all". And yes, this does to a great extent negate the validity of the individual. It's why I would never join the Sea Org, why I would not be a particle for them to shunt around, and why I got booted out in the end.

Bold is mine. This is where we disagree - will discuss at a later time.

That you recognized this early on and didn't join the SO and eventually became a thorn to COS for your individuality is very cool, though. Thanks.


I recall a preclear I took on who was totally bogged and on whom no one could get any results. I took her on on the agreement with the C/S that I would get no cramming orders until I had gotten her flying and doing well. I threw the correction lists out and audited her on actual processes and audited her purely by observation of the indicators on her face. It took me two sessions and she was laughing and enjoying life again.

many of the so-called "remedies" that were introduced into the tech were just plain lousy substitutes for the auditor paying attention to what the preclear was saying, or was being prevented from saying. Hundreds of cases were buggered up by this. I don't think I have used a single correction list in the past twenty years or more of auditing. I refuse to. That would never go down in the Orgs.

So I share your feelings in many regards.


Be well.:thumbsup:

I really like this part, where you went on your own and just listened and paid attention. That the C/S allowed this at the time and that you personally mention her 'enjoying life again,' which is not a stated EP for any scn process I know, is even better, because it sounds like it was her personal goal.

Years ago when I was in college and saw the college psychologist to discuss my experiences in scn, he began the counseling by asking me what my personal reasons were for being there and what were my goals. It took me by surprise and put quite a grin on my face.:biggrin: 'I'm getting real counseling,' I thought, 'finally, someone cares about my goals.' In nine years in scn, I'm sure I wasn't ever asked that. Not once. The C/Ses had a goal of patching me for post, or to get me up 'the Bridge' or to complete a sec check or rundown required by all staff. It was about becoming a better tool for the group, lots of auditing on trivial stupid things that didn't bother me in the least (like the COS' perverted obsession with the details of everyone's intimate sexual experiences that Strati mentioned.)

When you were going off on minute details of the clearing course, I found it annoying. Down, down down the rabbit hole of trivial details of Hubbard's personal ideas that are just another distraction and another meaningless mental masturbation. Of course you take it seriously or you wouldn't have written that, but scn is full of those rabbit holes and distractions. It's like the more detail you add, the more important it all sounds, but it's just another meaningless loop of meaningless jargon from a sci-fi writer, since Scientology has never produced a single clear or OT.

Training others into Hubbard's concept of the mind paradigm is molding. This is the essence of the paradox of scientology - the molding itself limits or prevents any genuine individual gains by suppressing the individuality of the person in front of you and forcing them to think through and with those concepts rather than addressing things purely with and through their own hearts, minds and concepts to fully regain their sense of true self.

Besides all the organizational and technical controls, this molding affects every individual session. As Lotus mentioned, it is why scientologists have to continually remind themselves and rehab their 'wins' to and with each other, because those wins cannot last while filtered and limited through another's concepts, vision and expectations. Perceived with all these limitations and definitions, those wins are like water evaporating in the heat of the day, rather than a rainshower of a person's own making that becomes self-sustaining, self-healing because a person becomes aligned and balanced with his personal goals, life and concepts of the spiritual.

You and others speak of spiritual gains. Spirits don't think in language, do they? Spirits don't have predefined, standard 'EP's, do they? Spirits don't all voice one, single, cookie-cutter phrase to determine their particular individual win, do they? Individuals don't all state the same thing other individuals state, not if you are truly auditing or counseling a person as an individual instead of a cog in a machine. So any process with instructions that a pc or preOT is done when they voice a certain thing may not be a process designed to help an individual at all, but rather one to get him or her to obtain one more controlling chain to become just another cookie cutter KSW following, brainwashed loyal scientologist, i.e., the clear cog: 'I no longer have a reactive mind.' Shit, never had one to begin with, never heard of one before, either. All Hubbard's sci-fi imaginings.

The really huge, monstrous wins one might imagine in scn were defeated before they could ever got off the ground.

That this affected every individual session I ever got in scn was a new, recent revelation for me.

Scientology draws its power from individuals by redirecting the energy away from their personal goals and away from individuality while at the same time appearing to (and sometimes actually) addressing these. It's a box, a mental trap, limiting individuality during every single session.

I have a newly developed love and respect for those who have squirreled it so well that they've actually managed to help me and others 'run out the scientology implant' and once again acknowledge and celebrate our individuality. My use of the word implant is not the same as yours, obviously. Implant to me is believing you are doing something good for yourself and making gains toward full individuality and personal goals when all around you is a box that would never allow those full gains to be obtained. Scientology is about being a piece of a group, a cluster. Breaking away from that as a full individual is not allowed, the group and scientologists rage against it. It is, in short, an implant. One that Hubbard himself said we would all need to run out some day.
 

Elronius of Marcabia

Silver Meritorious Patron
I suppose all Leon (and a few others) want is to be truly heard too ... but I can't genuinely be here for them because I don't want to hear that scio is good ... and can only ever manage to give them a very shallow (and phony) sciolike "ack" at best ... and (funnily enough) that doesn't seem to be what they want to receive, what they seem to want is to feel real understanding and communication.

Ironic isn't it?




:thumbsup:yes dripping with irony, well said Trouble:thumbsup:

The main problem I have with Leon and any form Scentology is as a practice it's based in
lies and malpractice, starting with engrams and engram chains.

If a person doe'snt buy that idea there is no need to proceed and it's bullshit from there on
because every single idea stems from the original.

Reactive mind
auditing
PC
Clear
OT
BTs
SP's

now the beauty of ESMB is there such a discussion:thumbsup: but in Scentology there never was and
never will be in any of it various forms, because there is no subject to discuss without the engram.

Do people have the right to practice on their belief in engrams of course they do
and if I think it's stupid and self abusive and mental masturbation I have the right to say
so, but I don't believe its conversation or discussion Leon and his friends are after.

They want what WhoBird wanted crediblity and the right to practice mental therapy
without a license and without paying taxes and to be seen as a science.

How has that worked out over 60 years ? not very well as I see it:coolwink:
 

WildKat

Gold Meritorious Patron
You are welcome to have your personal viewpoint that the abuses are not contained within the technical parts of scn.

That isn't my viewpoint.

I'll try to restate my actual viewpoint. I think there have been people who have used some of the basics of Scn and feel it helped them, that it solved a problem, made them happier, etc. To deny this is counterproductive in my opinion.

When taken as a whole subject, yeah I agree it's messed up, and I would never recommend it to anyone. As a whole, it IS a destructive cult.

If someone wants to try to pick it apart and pull out the good, that's their right. They just need to call it something else.
 

Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
$tandard $cientology Tech is what L Con and others wrote that most people would agree with. It is the $tuff that $ells $ciendolla-try.

$tandard $cientology Tech used ONCE you have your money on account and Legal Contracts signed and sealed under lock and key in the bowels of Titanium Tanks somewhere in the dessert is

Whatever methods necessary which Scientology deems will make you need to BUY more Scientology :yes:

In other words - Scientology Standard Tech is:

Get the idea of a demon chasing you with a pitchfork whilst you chase a carrot on a stick
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
No Leon, the term 'standard tech' meant 'A definite level or degree of quality that is proper and adequate for a specific purpose'.

If you were half the scientologist you would have us believe you are, you would know that.


This is correct what you say, but just what does "proper and adequate" denote in this context? Well, that changed over the years, as I indicated.

There are numerous other "definitions" in official Scio that the diligent student would notice and be wary of. Dig deeper. This is why I compiled my own dictionary of Scio terms.
 
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