Literally what to do!

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Whattodo, May 1, 2017.

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  1. Whattodo

    Whattodo Patron with Honors

    Has anyone had any experiences of attempting to encourage people out of scientology either successfully or unsuccessfully?

    I'm interested in people's stories on this matter, what worked and didn't work and the circumstances around them as I appreciate every situation can be different.

    I want to help get some people i know well get out but I'm trying to put together a strategy to do so without being declared an sp or pts. Although part of me feels like just unloading everything I have learned and read and just tell them they need to wake up and get out and to hell with being declared if it does or can sow enough doubt! However I know they strongley believe the tech works and that the best thing for this planet is for it to be cleared so is be wasting my time.

    So I have dropped subtle questions to date about why they have been asked to redo courses/buy new copies of books and I got the usual reply of they have been tampered with by people who have infiltrated scientology and there was errors so now re-released etc etc. I stated it sounded like a ploy to get extra money and what happens if 5/10 years down the line they ask you to do the same courses again or buy new books what would you do? They did actually say they would throw them all away so fingers crossed! Haha

    There has been a few other things I have talked about and tried to drop in countering points to their perspectuve of the flawless system of scientology!

    I notice as time goes by the more influence scientology has on their methods, the way they talk, behave, act, how they work etc from reading people's posts on here and it is ringing true for me. The main issue is that they are intensifying the number and level of courses they are doing and now really pushing it onto their kids to the extent they are all now in scientology and on course. I'm unsure if this is a recent emphasis or they just feel that they can trust me and speak openly about what they are doing or maybe they are getting pressure to get them all signed up and in. They even sent me a tech book to help my handle some of my so called issues which granted we can always find improvement but courses have been mentioned too. However more recently I have also been made to feel inept and incapable of the duties in my job because I haven't done the courses or trained for the position I have. They can also be stubborn, always right, come across as superior or firmly believe they are, a disregard to other business courses and also to peoples emotional or health issues as dianetics has the answers and they show a lack of empathy to most things outside of scientology.

    So what to do?

    The easy thing i guess Is leave them to it and let them figure it out for themselves. They have spent all their money on all these recent courses and that will be a lot.
  2. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    I'd have to go back but didn't you post this before?
  3. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

  4. Whattodo

    Whattodo Patron with Honors

    That was my intro thread I just wanted a thread to find people who specifically have their own stories or experiences to share rather than advice on my situation which is what that was more about. However If a moderator feels it would better to delete this thread and I repost on that thread I will?

    I need to try something or a different approach, I thought about setting up fake profiles to send emails/links or anonymous mail but that could expose me. I just interested in other people's stories in attempting to get people they care about out.
  5. Whattodo

    Whattodo Patron with Honors

    Who are the mods so we can delete this thread?
  6. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    Are you crazy??! You can't know who the Mods are. I've been posting here for evah and I don't know who the Mods are. :p And NOTHING gets deleted from this Board! We don't Delete! Who is this "we" who can delete here? I'd like to delete a few dozen posts. :biggrin:
  7. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    If you start to appear interested in Scientology with questions then they will probably interpret this as an opening to proselytize and you will never hear the end of it until you become overtly critical. Scientologists are starved for a sympathetic ear. If they tell someone at the org that they have an FSM prospect then the reg will be nudging them behind the scenes. If they have any issues with the org then they might be inclined to use you as an excuse for PTSness.

    All people involved with Scientology aren't completely unreasonable and may even want to keep the Church at a comfortable distance but it can get complicated.

    Scientology has perfected the art of rewriting history. One of the things I get a kick out of Scio watching is the extent to which the past is censored. So many people who knew the history are out and banned. Issues are canceled and shredded and their distribution is increasingly restricted within the organization. In the Sea Org we were mostly clueless outside of our own immediate area so the public are at the complete whim of the party line. Even internal correspondence routings are often to cryptic acronym titles - not to the people who hold them so if the people disappear only a few in the know may know. They seem very paranoid of propping anyone up who seems to represent the Church with any authority or credibility because to the extent they do that the damage control will be more difficult when they defect so we get voice overs on promo films or walk-ons instead of a consistent spokesperson.
  8. There's no need to delete the thread, just continue the discussion.
  9. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Re: Literally what to do! - Getting people out.

    There have been many threads addressing this in various ways. Off hand I can't locate any, but, perhaps, others will be able to do so, and would provide some links.

    One important thing is to be prepared for a time when the person becomes disillusioned (or has an upset with Scientology even temporarily) and calls you on the phone or shows up at your door, seeking help.

    Let's see if anyone comes up with any links. :)
  10. Whattodo

    Whattodo Patron with Honors

    Thank you, so in terms of original versions of booms etc rather than keep them for historical value they will just destroy them instead? Its enfuriating to see the level of covering up and how they literally bury their heads in the sand and ask no questions.

    I remember on my purif I would chat with 2/3 people after sessions and discuss other matters in the world. There was a big obsession with government conspiracy, ruling elites, other religions and how they have been manipulated, drug industry, physciaritry etc which was all very interesting but I had the same question in my head all the time "why then would you not question the cos and it's past if you are so sceptical about everything else"

    I just hope they trip up on these rewriting and this is the catalyst needed to create a chain of events for them to leave. I expect to be disappointed but hope for the best.
  11. Whattodo

    Whattodo Patron with Honors

    Re: Literally what to do! - Getting people out.

    I hope so, it's handling that situation in the right way if it does happen. I think pride will get in the way, that admission that you've been duped all along must be quite unbearable especially when they are so self assured. I bet it has aren't some people over the edge confronting the reality of that situation.
  12. Whattodo

    Whattodo Patron with Honors

    Has anyone ever tried sending anonymous mail to put things under the mods of anyone they want to try and get out?
  13. TheSneakster

    TheSneakster More Skeptical Than You

    What exactly is it that you think doing that might accomplish? Do you imagine that the moderators of ESMB have some sort of magical OT super powers to get people out of Co$ ?

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist
  14. Anonycat

    Anonycat Crusader

    At the top banner, use the drop-down called Quick Links and select Site Leaders. Hmmm, it looks out of date.

    The easiest and most efficient way to alert Mods about a post, is to report it.

    Within this forum software, is a hidden section for Admins and Mods. They can discuss a situation there, and importantly, see the reported posts that go there. When Mods log-in, they will see a notification as we do with "Likes".
  15. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Re: Literally what to do! - Getting people out.

    Sometimes it's more effective - and gentle - to allow the person to hold onto some parts of Scientology. It's not necessary to take it all away from him or her. Leave them a little something. The main thing is to extricate them from the organization and its influence. Once that's done, they can figure the rest out for themselves.

    Those little somethings can be found scattered about in what is called "Layer One" of this summation of the disguised and multi layered Scientology trap.

    Here's the original Scientological Onion as it appeared in the book, 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?'


    This is excerpted from the chapter titled, 'Destructive Cult Defined, and the Gradients of Deception: the Layers of the Scientological Onion'. Omitted is a one page introduction which is also worth reading.

    Scientology could be described as a "layers of the onion" operation.

    The outermost layer of the "Scientological Onion" is not identifiable with Scientology at all, being composed of front groups that conceal their connection to -and control by - the Scientology organization. Front groups might be said to constitute Layer Zero: a place where the tentacles of Scientology can grope incognito.

    The first layer of the Scientological Onion is meant to be very visible...

    Layer One includes Scientology's pampered clique of celebrities, and various public relations ploys. It reverberates with noble sounding sentiments about creating a better world. Scientology seeks to equate itself, and its founder, with anything broadly viewed as desirable or good. A little further along, this layer would include introductory courses with the stated aim of "knowing oneself" and "being free."

    Here exist the potentially beneficial aspects of the many masked Scientology operation. The tragedy of Scientology is that the "positives" are used as "window dressing" and "bait on the hook," when they should have been the core and foundation. Thus the Scientology organization reeks of hypocrisy.

    Also, at this much publicized layer, L. Ron Hubbard is presented as an engineer, war hero, nuclear physicist, and the "greatest humanitarian of all time," and the author of "22 best sellers with more to come."

    The "first layer" is what Scientology wishes the outside world to know as Scientology. And it is essentially what new converts to the "movement" believe.

    It includes most of what is good in the subject: The dream of peace on Earth, the desire to help, practical wisdom, civilized communication, and some potentially beneficial counseling procedures. The word freedom is used a great deal at this layer, and a heart felt desire for greater personal freedom, and freedom for all Mankind, is not unusual to new recruits to Scientology.

    (Any inconsistencies or contradictions between the publicly stated aims of the movement, and actual practices or facts, become irrelevant as the individual becomes subject to the Dark Side of Scientology. And the deeper one descends into the "onion" the darker it gets.)

    Descending into the "onion" it is necessary to become a Scientologist. This means thinking like a Scientologist. This is the Second Layer where deception eases into "soft" forms of mind-manipulation. Love of Mankind is modified that the awareness that human beings are mere hapless "Wogs"... The desire to help becomes the desire to recruit. The ideal of practical wisdom, based on logic and science, is superseded by the belief in the unfathomable mystery of the "tech." Indeed one is expected to be in a state of awe regarding the "tech," much in the same manner that a peasant woman might regard piece of bone, said to have belonged to a Saint from centuries past.

    The publicly promoted "policy" of honesty is modified by an awareness that deception is OK, as long as it serves to achieve the desired Scientological end. And the ideals of civility and democracy become a joke - just something that "panty-waists" and wimps fixate on.

    One is slowly being "hatted" as a Scientologist.

    (At this point an - unlucky - new Scientologist may be subjected to heavy handed "hard sell" tactics by a sales person or "registrar." Life savings have been lost, inheritances gobbled up, and lines of credit drained, all in a single arduous evening of "hard sell." This is really a premature taste of Layer Four.)

    The Third Layer down is composed of never ending, expensive, highly advertised, but confidential "upper levels." These go on and on - and on. Scientology has been selling the promise of "Total Freedom" since before most of its current membership were born. It remains the ever elusive "dangling carrot."

    Well known individuals who become involved in Scientology - becoming "Scientology celebrities" - do not go deeper into the Scientological Onion than this.

    They are also spared the abuses that "less valuable" beings may suffer at the hands of Scientology sales people, "Sea Org" recruiters, or "ethics" officers...

    At the upper fringes of the next layer down is local "Org staff," and at the bottom of Layer Four can be found "Sea Org" personnel. This layer employs more pervasive and cruder forms of "persuasion" or "mind control." Here is the "slave labor" supplying Rehabilitation Project Force, the Pavlovian "5 Card System," and the grim but repressed awareness that one is mainly a "post" and a "stat," (i.e. statistic.)

    The Fifth layer down includes intimidation of the mass media, use of lawsuits purely for purposes of harassment, and applications of policies and programs, such as those discovered as a result of the FBI search warrants of July 1977. These materials were made available for public view by Federal court order in 1979 and consist of organized applications of the Fair game Law, and related confidential policies and "tech," designed to illegally gain access to private files, infiltrate, harass, lie about, "sue, trick, lie to, or destroy" anyone perceived as an enemy. At this layer also would be secret bank accounts and financial irregularities.

    Other aspects of this layer would include "blackmail," including threats to publicize personal information obtained during "religious confessionals" (auditing sessions); and the inducement of duress of various kinds - including frivolous lawsuits - to obtain promises of "silence," and to obtain "signed retractions" of earlier statements.

    Here also can be found the handful of individuals who constitute the "Scientology hierarchy": the board of directors of the Religious Technology Center, and its chairman David Miscavige or "DM."

    Layer Number Six appears to be the core of the Onion. It is a very temperamental and secret place.

    Here lie the secrets of L. Ron Hubbard: his bad health, bad habits, undistinguished military service, flunked physics and mathematics classes. Here can be found the actual motivations behind, and sources of, Dianetics and Scientology. Here can be found Mary Sue Hubbard, languishing in prison for crimes committed under her husband's direction, while her husband, in hiding, passes the time writing Science Fiction. Here are all the things you shouldn't know about the founder of the "Science of Knowing How to Know."


    One of the more effective (but not entirely honest) approaches - for those deeply IN - it to say, "tech is out on Orgs."

    Sites such as this may be useful in such drastic cases.
  16. cleared cannibal

    cleared cannibal Silver Meritorious Patron

    Re: Literally what to do! - Getting people out.

    I still struggle with sorting the good from the bad. I don't think you should throw out or disavow everything from Scn. In actuality most everything of value is probably plagiarized from some other place , many are valid ideas. This leads to a cognitive dissonance situation for me and many others. I still have comms with Scn and I now can recognize when they find a point of agreement and this feeling of cognitive dissonance and get through it on most occasions.

    I feel there is very little one can do to get someone to leave unless they are willing to look.

    Ethercat's through the door interviews might be of interest to you if you haven't already looked. Goes through many people's reasons for joining and leaving. A few on there are even still in I think, been a while since I read them.

    I found this on my news feed today. I guess Google must be tracking my interests. Was going to make a thread of it but seems applicable here. Apologies if it has already been posted I am unable to closely follow the board right now.

    You might be interested in the Rick Ross vid.
  17. EZ Linus

    EZ Linus Patron with Honors

    Personally, while I can appreciate all the advice on the other thread that this thread is linked to in the beginning of this one, and all the advice on this one too, (wow, did that make any sense?) I wouldn't wait to pounce on someone when they have a big upset with the Church, but gently agree that you used to feel the same way, or do feel that same way without getting into a "natter" fest. What's golden is when they are disillusioned with the "tech" itself. That is when you need to be a safety net because that could be a big deal for them. The floor could be dropping from underneath them for all you know. Kid gloves. It could be a perfect time to tell them you live happily in the world without Scientology and you are okay, but do not suggest that they should. Always let them have their own realization and make their own decision.

    I have made comments to my Scientology friends that I still use Scientology in my life and that it is part of my "tool box." I do not mean it and it is a small white lie, but it seems to open a door that there are other things in the world that are of assistance in life other than Scientology. It is not the ONE thing that will save the universe. Or whatever. They ALREADY KNOW the tech has flaws and that it is not foolproof. If they've been in a while, they have experienced it, witnessed it or know about it. You really do not NEED to plant too many seeds. You need to let them feel like they can come to you when they are ready. And BE THERE for them when they are. This seemed to work on at least one friend, but I really can't take responsibility for her leaving. Who knows what else made her come to her decision. But luckily, she is out, her sister is out too. The parents are still in. Another friend of mine is out and his parents are still in, but he was able to reconnect to one biological parent (and brother) who were considered "enemies" when his parents divorced. He was just 14. See how they break up families? Once he contacted that parent, his leaving was set in stone. He was instantly embraced and felt safe and loved.

    All I'm saying is do it gently, lead by example, don't push, and make sure they know you are a safe person to talk to. You want to basically represent the freedom they do not have.
  18. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Ha ha Yes, just compare the course rooms of the 60's and 70's. They actually have people in them. But how many of those people are now out, declared or even EXposing the scam. So what do they do?
    They present more and more of their promo of buildings and course rooms with NO people in them. Sure there are photos of crowds... it is I suppose not hard to remove one or two or a few more people from a photo of a crowd.
    Before ya know it they will hand out Guy Fawkes masks to all who will be photographed at any scientology activity. :)
  19. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Did you mean to type NOSE rather than mods?
  20. Whattodo

    Whattodo Patron with Honors

    My new phone has this daft auto correct function that works differently to other phones. I meant under their noses not mods