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Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Whattodo, May 1, 2017.
When it comes to course fees do they ever offer special offers or negotiate on the costs?
There are three books in a series by David R Hawkins that would, IMHO, shred the Scientology valence in a Scientologist.
It might not be overnight, mind you, but I think it would do the trick.
Power vs Force
The Eye of the I
I - Reality and Subjectivity
Other things might be the Bowtwo Squirrel material. All very interesting for the Scieno who senses a problem but is a Ron loyalist. This goes along with the friends of LRH link Veda posted. The last I knew the Bowtwo stuff was IRS Scientology or something. Bowtwo was an anacronym for "Based on the works of". You still might have a Scientologist at the end of this.
Finally, Hubbard's death certificate was completely unexplainable in Scientology.
The only way for Vistaril in his system was A) allergies (nullifying the Asthma Allergy Rundown and numerous PTS stuff), B) a psychotic break (completely nullifying the entirety of Scientology) or C) Ron being PTS (completely nullifying the L Rundowns, Scientology OT levels and the PTS/SP tech).
I had read material that Miscavige as Ron's comm handler altered everything and kept Ron in the dark and pulled one over on Ron...but this completely nullifies Scientology and being exterior. How can you fool an exterior OT with a physical comm line alteration? If you can sit on the Van Allen belt you can certainly swoosh down to hear or read what Pat Broeker, et al, have to say.
Afterall, Ron audited until the body was like a sliver stuck in a thumb where the thumb is the being. That's how big the exterior anchor points are.
What a joke.
I recently read a book: "Dark Side Of The Moonies" by Erica Heftmann which showed me that the Moonies operate in a similar way to Scientology.
The author of the book had to be kidnapped and "deprogrammed" for weeks before finally accepting she'd been conned.
Personally I'm not happy with the "kidnapping" aspect of this but the book shows just how much discussion and arguing about the tenets of the cult needs to take place before the victim finally realises the truth. It can be days or weeks before something clicks and the usual reaction is for the person to just burst into tears upon the final realisation.
When the author finally got out of the Moonies she helped to deprogram numerous others and she said the strangest one was a rather straight-laced guy who, upon eventually realising the truth, didn't burst into tears. He just sat up straight, slowly took off his glasses and said: "It appears that I have been deceived".
That's why the FBI dropped their human trafficing investigation, supposedly. Because no victims would testify - in fact their testimony would protect Scientology just like Rinder's former wife testifying she knew every inch of Rinder's body and he never sustained any Miscavige abuse, blah, blah, blah.
That's why I don't think there's any dark government conspiracy to let it operate. Look at the diffiCULTy they had in Waco and there weren't any well connected Tom Cruises or John Travoltas or Kirstie Alleys there in that case.
There's no "win" for the FBi when all these Hollywood elites throw a shitfit and all the "victims" defend Miscavige and Scientology tooth and nail.
What is the FBI going to do...kidnap Scientologists?
Right! If you do that a few times it's no big deal but the absence of people is so constructed in Scientology that it does make one ponder the mindset behind it. Do they not want people to see staff? Families and friends might recognize them, they are gaunt with dark circles under their eyes, lends credibility when they become critics? And when they do show course rooms packed with happy studious people it is equally artificial - the two most beautiful people in front and the rest fading into the background in descending order of attractiveness. I get a kick out of the ambient shots, showing people walking around the org - except they all look like someone just gave them a "Start!" and they went from freeze to taking their first step. But the group shots at events are also disturbing for the disproportionate number of grey and balding backs of heads. Maybe it's mostly older people who have had time to accumulate wealth and now have free time who can afford to attend and the younger members are somewhere else busily doing the Church's good work?
Has our perception become jaded or are we just attuned to seeing the increasingly stressed attempt to cultivate normality in Scientology PR?
To negotiate prices down is considered a suppressive act and comm-evable offense.
Miscavige's hyperbolic and fraudulent speeches aside, I can't really comment regarding 'our' perception as that would be very individual like it is in life. For me it brings feelings of disgust and revulsion.
But with us having become familiar with how these are all staged and why, I would say we can reason that they are done so in attempt to show how great scientology led by Davey boy is. I wouldn't be surprised if it is because he knows he is failing and that his group is failing, and in the attempt to show how wonderful all his acquired property is and how he can draw crowds is an indication of what miscavige is all about. His malignant megalomaniac view that all that he touches is wonderful and a demonstration of his value. He probably is unable to face himself in the mirror. Or perhaps he is even lower than that and completely without conscience yet driven to conquer. To what end? Perhaps the 'end' is simply unfathomable to social people.
The fact is this is a criminal, putting on a show, while he spreads his fraud. I mostly don't even bother to look at Thursdays Funnies on Mike Rinder's blog because the plastic world presented in their 'communique's of scientology simply makes my gut wrench. It has nothing to do with spirituality, or virtue and a whole lot to do with deception and creating delusions while robbing people blind. It is just yuk! It is behaviour not at all desired by the majority of mankind.
It is certainly not normal, but then again not the only rotten area in our civilization and I hope that all the striving and stress to make it be seen as normal is never fully realized.
And that is exactly why I never liked the "you must've been real stupid to ever join" argument. An efficient deception gets people to do shit they normally wouldn't do .
When people have said that "you've must have been real stupid to have ever joined," or "gullible," or whatever, I tend to just ignore them in general because it's impossible to school them on how brainwashing works, how mind control works, and how the whole luring of a good and ideal person being taken advantage unfolds. They are just ignorant and it's not really their fault. I don't usually tell anyone that I was ever involved in Scientology in the first place because of that reaction.
But when I do, I tend to get one of a few different reactions, other than the above -- but I do get the above a lot.
"Wow, do you know Tom Cruise?"
"Why do so many celebrities gravitate to it? Is it like a secret society that makes them more famous?"
"Those people are crazy!"
"I'm really sorry that you got caught up in that. I hear they stalk people after they leave. I hope you are safe."
"I don't really know all that much about it."
I have to just get used to all these different kinds of reactions. The more people know about the cult and the more they are exposed for what they are, the better it will be. And the less we will seem like idiots I guess.
Had the cheek to tell me that I shouldn't handle any purchasing as I work in sales and have empathy for sales people and this point was clear as I was willing to accept a price. they said they had read that in a book about sales people but I said that doesn't meant it automatically applies to all sales people!
I was looking at some marketing data and crm system and they had chipped it down by 40% but they felt I was willing to accept this offer too easily. I've knocked them back for 2 months and they have kept coming back at me with deals and I've deliberately strung it along which has worked from my view point. The deal isn't available now.
It's little remarks like this that wind me up, complete superiority complex as they have the tech! Fortunately I didn't snap as I came close to saying didn't you think to ask for a refund or free course when they told you to redo courses as the previous content was wrong!
Jesus if someone delivered a service or course to me and then said it wasn't valid I'd expect to be refunded and at the very least pretty cheesed off!
I wanted to buy Adobe for about £250 so i could create our own pdf proposals or terms of contract but that was a waste of money. However buying a laptop and Microsoft office so they can work whilst on course isn't!!!!
Requesting a refund in Scientology will get you declared an SP. If you are an SP you can't get a refund. It's a catch 22. The policies say you should get a refund upon request but Scientology policy is to protect LRH and Church and to salve the naive and foolish.
AnonyMary mentions the references I was thinking of in an old post. Cutative Prices can be interpreted as any prices below list = Treason:
AnonyMary said: 28th June 2010 04:26 PM
From one submission:
One such policy demands no free services ( HCO PL 27 November 1971 III FREE SERVICES = FREE FALL ) are to be given by the organisation. It states as follows:
"An Auditor or Course Supervisor delivering a service to an individual without having to hand a fully paid invoice for that service and who does not send the person back to the registrar to be signed up for that service is: A. Covertly robbing his fellow staff members of their pay, and B. In a condition of Treason to his org, and is so assigned."
HCO PL 23 September 1970 Issue I "Organization Series Number Six - Cutative Prices" states:
"PROCESSING MAY NEVER BE GIVEN AWAY BY AN ORG." and "BOOKS MAY NEVER BE GIVEN AWAY BY AN ORG OR BY PUBS ORG [now Bridge Publications Inc. and New Era Publications Inc.] and "ONLY FULLY CONTRACTED STAFF IS AWARDED FREE SERVICE, AND THIS IS DONE BY [a "no charge"] INVOICE AND LEGAL NOTE WHICH BE- COMES DUE AND PAYABLE IF THE CONTRACT IS BROKEN."
The church mandates there be an EXCHANGE in all things Scientology.
screw them and their contracts!
Maybe I am the only one? I have received a refund and was not declared, but it was not easy and the road to it was a fiery hell. I had to absolutely be willing to get a declare during the process. That was awful at the time. But RTC saw that my spouse's reg cycle was dirty and had no other choice but to give the money back. It is in my little story here.
Normally it is true, even asking for a refund can be considered a suppressive act. Just like talking about suing them, calling a lawyer, taking them to court, or any talk like that. You can not even sue another Scientologist. Not even in a divorce. It's all to be taken care of through the Chaplain and then you file the paperwork yourself or through a paralegal (preferably through a Scientology firm). You can't use the legal system. You can't use the medical system. You can't use the real authorities in the real world.
Well despite apparently being skint and that they wouldn't be able to afford more courses or auditing they are extending their stay to do another course.
Think someone said the regs would get hold of them and find a way to get them to buy more auditing/courses on this or another thread. They were right, I pointed it out to them and skipped over the point completely.
Just hope they aren't borrowing or spending investments.
Since I posted this thing about getting a refund, I have read some stuff that has lead me to believe that OSA was possibly keeping an eye on me after that and knew I could be a PR risk. I know that sounds paranoid, and maybe crazy to some, but I only audited one last intensive after that before I left Scientology and I remember my auditor (same woman I'd always had -- in fact she audited me all the way up to Clear), started taping the sessions. I wasn't too suspicious about it at the time. Maybe I was. It did make me a little uncomfortable. I was so upset about the whole situation with those regs and I got to a point where I purposely shut myself up because I was being tapped. I knew it looked like I was just "nattering." Now I wonder why. Why were they taping me?
I'm surprised they were out front with the recordings.
Last August, Moscow investigators said separately that they had opened a criminal inquiry after finding hidden microphones and cameras in the Moscow church’s premises.
Chances are, they are borrowing or spending their investments.
After all, with the benefits they obtain, they will make up that cash in no time.
If you value someone's friendship who is an avid Scientologist, I wouldn't make any attempt. See, it all depends on:
1. How much you want a continued relationship with that person, and
2. To what extent are they believers in Scientology?
If, on #2, they are teetering, sure, go for it. but, if they are solid Scientologists, especially for a long time, I wouldn't even try, that is, if I want a continued relationship with that person.
Welcome Oscar. It is good to have you here.
I don't fully agree with your statement about "wouldn't make any attempt". If your friend is being hoodwinked and being sold a bill of goods, then it does make sense to try to find a way to truly help your friend become aware of the undue influence or manipulation that they are undergoing.
Perhaps we could call it due infuence because it is based on full disclosure and facts and desire for independent thought whereas 'undue influence' could be said to be thought and information and emotional control for reasons other than the subject/friend's independence.
Steven Hassan's BITE method addresses this.
Of course friendship can be really valuable and a true friend will stick up for their friend and try to find a way to maintain that friendship while also protecting or rescuing their friend.
A reminder; scientologists who have been die hards and zealots and 'IN" for as long as 40 years have come around finally to seeing how they have been betrayed, so there are evidently things which will work to bring about the end of the cultic grip.
I do think there are overall theories on what works and what doesn't work, but it should be kept in mind that what works often may not work in some cases and that personal tailoring has great value.
I somewhat agree with you. If you really like them, then you would want to help them get out. Being openly hostile towards Scn will just get you disconnected from, so you have to be subtle. The important thing is to be there when they finally decide it's time to leave, so they have somebody supportive to turn to.