LRH and LSD?

Discussion in 'L Ron Hubbard' started by MacKenzie, Mar 25, 2018.

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  1. MacKenzie

    MacKenzie Patron with Honors

    I have always been curious why Ron was so fearful of LSD. Can anyone illuminate for me?
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  2. pineapple

    pineapple Patron Meritorious

    I think LRH saw the late-60's drug culture as competition. If people had their own "cognitions" on drugs, they wouldn't need him as Source.

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  3. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    He outlawed recruiting people into the SO due to flash backs, and thought it was a psych drug used to create insanity. Other than that? Who knows?

    There is /are some tech and policy volumes on line that you could search for the various things he wrote about drugs for more info.

  4. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    LRH Jr. said that his father gave him LSD and that's where the OT Level data came from was from Nibs being high on LSD.

    I was taught in Scientology that auditing won't work if one is on any mind altering occludes the memories that one needs to have access to, in order to make gains while receiving auditing.
  5. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    There was a tape I heard, sorry I don't recall the name of it, in which he said he reserved the right to wrap himself around a telephone pole ( in the name of research ) and he mentioned he was on a ship, took a hand full of some pill, his body collapsed and he had to wait on a spar before the drug wore off enough that he could pick it back up. Back then I believed it, now, it seems like so much braggadocio. I am not so sure if he was referring to the royal scotman or some other ship since I don't recall the era of the tape. Most of them I heard were on the BC which covered the time prior to the sea org.

  6. pineapple

    pineapple Patron Meritorious

    Nibs did say LRH gave him drugs. But I don't remember him mentioning LSD. Nibs's 1983 Penthouse interview (Much mention of drugs, but not LSD):

    Jon Atack says Nibs was given speed to produce History of Man, here on Tony Ortega's site:

    Jon says others told him Hubbard mentioned taking LSD. While Hubbard was clearly well-acquainted with drugs, he also lied like crazy. So ... :questions:
  7. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    I thought I read that somewhere, but I don't recall could have been another drug besides LSD. :confused:
  8. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
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  9. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

    Ha, thanks for that one.

    The Al Hubbard story sounds like LRH in a parallel universe.
  10. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    In a private conversation with me, Ron Jr - during the mid 1980s - stated that his father experimented with LSD and had a bad trip.


    Here's a partial collection of information on Hubbard's use of drugs and alcohol.

    From 'Terra Incognita: The Mind':

    "The best stimulant is Benzedrine. In its absence an overdose of coffee will do."



    From 'Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health' (1950):

    "Opium is less harmful [than alcohol], marijuana is not only less physically harmful but also better in the action of keeping a neurotic producing, phenobarbital does not dull the senses nearly as much and produces less after effect..."


    From a 'Philadelphia Doctorate Course' lectures (1952):

    Lecture 27: "The body - He has never used it. He's taken care of it."

    Lecture 33: "There isn't any reason it shouldn't drink all the liquor it can hold... be perfectly free to use the body in any way he chooses."


    Ron Jr. from 'Messiah or Madman?' (concerning the 1950s):

    "My whole life I've always marveled at his capacity to consume alcohol and remain upright and coherent. A fifth of Myers dark run was like two aspirin to dad...​

    He [Hubbard Sr.] would sit at his typewriter late at night and boost up on drugs and hit way at the top, and just write like crazy. He could type 97 words a minute with four fingers. That was the maximum the old IBM electric typewriter would go. When he got into one of these drugs trips, he'd write until the body just collapsed.

    That's the way he worked. Usually what he had written in a burst would then be allowed to trickle out to the public, the classes he taught. It just wouldn't show up right away."​


    Hubbard's bottle a night at St. Hill, and how it was discreetly discarded the next morning:


    From 'Keeping Scientology Working' (1965):

    "We will not speculate here on... how I came to rise above the bank."

    A few excerpts from the John McMaster interview in the book, 'Messiah or Madman?' (McMaster was "the first real Clear"):

    "...In all the years of working for him I found that he absolutely despised people for being Scientologists."​

    McMaster commented on an encounter with Hubbard at St. Hill, when he urgently needed to relay a message:

    "Well, it was about mid day. He was just getting up. He was a night owl. Anyway, I got up there and he was in his bathroom, which was attached to his bedroom. He came out and I was surprised at the color of his body. It was grey. He came out nude.

    And there on the table was one of those enormous bottles of Gin."​

    On the Apollo, McMaster witnessed Hubbard's drug supply, "It was the largest drug chest I had ever seen. He had everything!"


    From Aleister Crowley's 'The Book of the Law':

    "We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit; let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of Kings: stamp down the wretched and the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.

    "...I am the snake that giveth knowledge and delight, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness. To worship me take wine and strange drugs. They shall not harm ye at all. It is a lie, this folly against self...​

    "...The Kings of Earth shall be the Kings forever: the slaves shall serve.​

    "Them that seek to entrap thee, to overthrow thee, them attack without pity or quarter; and destroy them utterly."​

    The 'Law of Thelema' is "Do What Thou Wilt." For Crowleyites, its "Book One" is 'The Book of The Law'.

    The Book of the Law is the same color as Scientology's Technical Volumes.

    From one of Jack Parsons' letters to Aleister Crowley, re. Hubbard: "He [Hubbard] is the most Thelemic person I have ever met..."

    And from Jack Parsons, Hubbard's "Magic(k)al partner" for a time in 1946. Parsons wrote this poem, which appeared in 1943, in the 'Oriflamme' Journal of the O.T.O:

    "I hight Don Quixote, I live on Peyote, Marijuana,
    Morphine and Cocaine,​
    I never know sadness, but only a madness,​
    That burns in the heart and the brain.​
    I see each charwoman, ecstatic, inhuman, angelic, demonic, divine.​
    Each wagon a dragon, each beer mug a flagon
    That burns with ambrosial wine."​


    Another link re. alcohol and drugs (Rum, Pinks and Greys, etc.):


    Excerpts from a post from Challenge from 2009 (Elsewhere Challenge recalled smoking a joint with Hubbard in Phoenix, circa 1953/54, but also added that Hubbard didn't like the taste. Understandable, as Hubbard was a smoker of mentholated KOOLs.):

    "LRH used drugs. He did not enjoy Marijuana. He said it gave him bad breath... He preferred chemicals. All kinds, mixed up together. That includes prescription meds. I don't know their names. Tuinal might be one, or it could have been 2-in-all. Either way, it was Cocaine and Heroin mixed together.

    Cocaine was in use. Peyote. Lsd. Mr Hubbard preferred Amphetamines, such as Dexedrine and Benzedrine..."​

    There's much more, including not only Hubbard's secret drug use and alcohol abuse, but, also, Hubbard's writings to Scientologists on drugs.

    His writings on LSD span from 1955 through 1977.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
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  11. Little David

    Little David Gold Meritorious Patron

    Some paranoid schizophrenics (which is an illness LRH may have had) have audio hallucinations that are voices that say negative things to them. Many or most psychiatrists think that LSD (and many other drugs) could aggravate or make such paranoid schizophrenic symptoms more likely. It is possible such a scenario occurred with LRH and he assumed it was likely to occur with anyone who used LSD.

    LRH on LSD was probably even worse than LRH sober :eek:
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  12. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    You should read Janice Grady's book - she eschews the drugs and Hubbard yarn- she never saw evidence if it. Mimsey
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  13. pineapple

    pineapple Patron Meritorious

    Well, I figure he was probably starting to taper off around that time, the Apollo era. He was in his late 50's and his body probably couldn't handle it as well anymore. (This is also when scn becomes anti-drug, which it hadn't been before.) My own indulgence decreased with age; I used to do drugs, drink alcohol, and smoke cigarettes. The drugs were the first thing to go, then the cigarettes and booze went.

    Also, it's not always that easy to tell if someone is under the influence. And if you regard that person as the greatest OT on the planet, you'd be inclined to discount any evidence you saw, because you wouldn't want to think badly of that person.

    If I listen to Hubbard now, he sounds like he's zonked on some of those tapes. But if the idea crossed my mind when I was in scn, I'd have quickly dismissed it. I considered any weirdness in LRH's manner just a little eccentricity.
  14. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Crusader

    Oh my. :) I just looked over at what was holding up the bottom my small window AC unit. That tech vol is exactly the same color and size with the gold embossed title on its binding instead of the front. It IS like Crowley's Book of the Law.

    Doing OT III I experienced a pervasive LSD presence in every session. An intimidating one. No matter how precisely I focused my attention, everywhere in the auditing space seemed to be filled. I never did get the source and I never ingested anything like it, and it didn't repair. I sometimes thought I would explode. (Like in The Matrix?). A few times I would feel like something was injected into my veins but trying to run it as a different cluster making incident wouldn't fly. I ran the level only til a flat point and did not notice a return of ARC from doing the level. It felt like I was connecting with synthetically generated entities, not living beings. Contact I might have made with the charge wasn't from an Inc II. I considered it maybe a contagion of sorts, like I'd never have come across anything to trigger THAT if I wasn't doing Scn. I got reads but they didn't bring change into my life..... except for stirring up INT.

    I have a book by Marvin Meyer which contains translations of ancient scrolls from the Gnostics. In several of them, it seems individuals are describing in awe, their exteriorization from Time. That of this system which has our attention locked into its time/space continuum. Time exists, location exists, and our focus of awareness is dominated by identity here. I think that when LRH got into his babble about the gates of hell and suppression from outside, he was messing with archaic problems he would never solve. I think maybe, in a kabbalistic sense, Life has had a problem keeping its life force 'contained' in its assigned vessels or stations. That story about Lucifer is one who envied and wanted to be THE Cause. IMO, we may have entered into time/space continuums a lot. Maybe Ron's Wall of Fire was a re-enacted past initiation before the big plunge. Engineering our personal universe, we might imbue our own lifeforce into what we create and command it "STAY!". It's rebellion when the ground no longer wills on its own, to serve the sky.

    Some of the Gnostic treatises were advices on how to free yourself from entities holding you down IN the timestream. These were given spacial coordinates and said to be barring your progress out and beyond their powers. [​IMG]

    (Valentinianism: regarding the spaces ruled by the Archons) Time- breaking and o/w phenomena are looked at from their different angles and purposes in the gnostic teachings. It's hard to read between lines because writings often incorporate similies taken for granted thru generations and not elucidated further. There was no equality of intelligence, some struggling to learn thru experiencing the mysteries and others getting just the little stories. That's how the Alexandrians wrote it up anyway in Hellenistic times, so that was their social scene. I think the writing that had their origins in the ancient Aramaic texts had ideas you find around Tibet. Chastisement for wrong errors in thinking were common, as if their Gnostic vein was older than dirt. It stressed disrupting mental association between pairs of opposites. A branch focused on syzygies that keep each other's phenomena in a state of balanced creation.

    Scientology is a gnostic style religion, cough... with its story of the Fall from Divine status into entrapment and the soul's struggle to rise again up to its completeness.

    I include some boring references here because it must be remembered that some of the discovered text were repetitions of the Book of Thoth and other Egyptian prayers that Crowley took from, as well as the idea of Gnostic Mass. It was his 'twist'.

    I tried to just stick a link instead of the big cover photo but can't do it any more.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
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  15. vumba

    vumba Danielle Chamberlin

    If you read Kimi Douglas' accounts of her life with LRH (I am afraid I don't know the link), she talks about his drug use, and there are others who bore witness to it too.
  16. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    As you noted, Hubbard's use of alcohol and drugs changed as he grew older. But, even during the 1950s, when Hubbard was flamboyantly "thelemic," there were some who had no idea. There were always clean cut types who didn't use amphetamines, marijuana, etc., or drink in excess. They were usually kept in the dark, or happily stayed in the dark, and this despite Hubbard's written and spoken "thelemic" ("Do What Thou Wilt") attitudes towards sex, alcohol and ("recreational") drugs - with the exception, of course, of LSD, which Hubbard had denounced as early as the mid 1950s.

    It wasn't until 1968, when Hubbard noticed a correlation between staff using drugs and (a drop in) org income that things began to change. That was also the time that old timer Pamela Kemp presented Hubbard with the Dianetic Drug Rundown.

    Hubbard then told Scientologists that, if they had used drugs, they were doomed (for the "next endless trillions") without the Drug Rundown. It was a big money maker. It also required Scientologists to provide a (metered) list of all the drugs they had used, including illegal drugs. This was excellent for collecting blackmail-able material on Scientologists (all of whom, unbeknownst to themselves, were regarded a potential enemies by Hubbard).

    Then, around the early 1970s, Hubbard had some health issues and his private habits changed due to those health issues.


    Alan Walter and DartSmohen were two ESMB members. They both worked with Hubbard over many years, and were on the first Class 8 course on the ship.

    ____Two posts____​

    DartSmohen, February 2008:

    I guess it is time to put some truth out about OT3.

    I was there when Hubbard was winding up his research (Las Palmas 67.)

    We were the Sea Project, long before the Sea Org was created.

    You have to understand the level of drugs Hubbard was on at the time. This was well after his cocaine and Phenobarbitone stuff of the 50's. He was heavily into barbituates, codene etc. He had a shore base called "Estrella", down the coast. I saw his pharmecutical store there, it was huge.

    The original 3 materials were handwritten and photocopied backwards, so you had to hold them to a mirror to read them. I read them all when I was Chief of Advanced Courses on the ship. It was just like a 1050's science fiction story.

    We had our first inkling of what was coming before we set sail fom the UK in April/May 67. Hubbard put out a confidential SP declare on one of our staff, John Laurence (former chaplain at St Hill). In it he stated that John was no longer the person we thought he was, having been taken over by another or other beings.

    In Las Palmas Hubbard used to talk quite openly about his "research". He used to say that the main street in Gran Canaria was exactly like it was 75 million years ago, exact in every detail. He got some really funny looks from several members of the crew. I don't think there was more than a couple of members who bought into the story. In order to satisfy the rest of us he added a line about Loyal Officers. This was a clever move as it allowed us to simply say that we never got the implant as we were away at the time.

    Outside the dockyard there was a church. On Feast Days (there were many) an evening service took place. It was dark and there was always a small crowd.

    First there was a candle lit procession, followed by a loud bang, then a series of flashing lights, another procession came out from the church, led by men carrying poles on which figures of cherubs were mounted. Following this came a replica of the ark of the covenant, with a winged chariot on it. The procession traversed around the forecourt. All the time preyers were being said, led by a priest in long robes. Then firecrackers went off and the candles were extinguished, leaving the place in darkness as the processions re-entered the church.

    Hubbard used to say that this was a replica of Inc 1. I wonder where he got the idea of Inc 1 from?

    It is up to each person to decide for themselves if they wish to subscribe to the theory and story of OT3. I just thought that a bit of background info might help you to align your thoughts.

    In case you are wondering whether any of this is true or not, ask Alan. He was there too

    From Alan Walter, February 2008:

    It is true!

    The write up that is of Darth! :)


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  17. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Crusader

    Bolded mine.

    I laughed out a fart over that. Me thinketh thou protests too much. :moodswing:
  18. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

    Paul Adams put together Dart Smohen's posts which are worth the read. Find them here: at the bottom of the page.

    Some of the posts made me laugh so hard that I had tears running down my cheeks.:laugh:
  19. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    Because it was a drug acquired and used by some federal agencies to create psychosis and paranoia. It was used to disburse the hippie(anti Viet Nam war protestors) movement quite successfully. If it weren't for that SOED on LSD I would most likely be a class XII today.
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  20. pineapple

    pineapple Patron Meritorious

    I didn't know the Dianetic Drug RD went back that far. What we used to call the "Class VIII RD" comes from the 1968 Class VIII course. That was rehabbing drugs, triple recalls (secondaries?) and engrams of doing drugs, e.g "Locate an incident containing pain and unconsciousness of another giving you drugs/you giving drugs to another/others giving drugs to others," etc. I believe when it was introduced, that was the whole DRD. I think the Class VIII RD was still done as the final step of the DRD (after the main Dianetic DRD) until NED came along.

    But the Dianetic DRD -- which to me means running each reading drug narrative, and AESP's (attitudes, emotions, sensations, and pains) connected with each drug -- did that really go back that far? The DRD doesn't even appear on the Grade Chart as a separate step until 1974. It's not on the 1970 Grade Chart. The 1970 chart has Life Repair (optional), ARC S/W, and then Dianetic Case Completion. (Must I go hunting for grade charts?)

    I believe the early 70's was when it became mandatory to run all reading drugs, without checking interest. I think this came out of the XDN (Expanded Dianetics) stuff. In talking about the various XDN test cases, Hubbard claims over and over again that the failures were due to "unhandled drugs." I believe this is where the "run all drugs, don't check interest" came from.

    I didn't get into scn until 1975 (when we were doing the "full Drug RD," i.e. Dianetic DRD plus Class VIII RD), and what I'm saying here is what I remember from ~40 years ago. So somebody else check me on this. When did the Dianetic DRD (not the "Class VIII RD") actually start? I don't think it was as early as 1968.