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Mario Feninger at 90 Disconnects from Allen Barton. Why???

MissWog

Silver Meritorious Patron
Hew is a link to Tony's article. http://tonyortega.org/2013/02/26/sc...-music-lovers-this-one-will-break-your-heart/

I am taking this opportunity to ask what at his age Mario is worried about? What will happen to his eternity per Hubbard? He is 90! This can't just be about not getting to be with friends or go to CC..

What's the promise for the next life? That if he accepts money from a declared SP he won't get what? How much more work at 90 can he do on his case and what does it matter for the next go around in your next meat body?

And now, at the age of 90, the man’s church has compelled him to cut off all contact with a pupil who had been helping to support him financially. Why? Because that pupil dared to walk away from Scientology.
 

RogerB

Crusader
The idiocy of all this disconnection shite is that it dis-empowers the folks involved and it also dis-empowers the Cof$ itself!

The more line they cut, the smaller and less powerful they become!

Talk about idiotic "tech"!

They are creating their own demise with it . . .

R
 

Dean Blair

Silver Meritorious Patron
I found the story to be very interesting and appreciate Tony Ortega for reporting it. My own daughter, brother, three sisters, and all of their children have disconnected from me for many years because I no longer agree with the fraud of Scientology.

My own mother disconnected and divorced my dad because he wouldn't drink the koolaid.

I have had acquaintances that I was close to when I was drinking the koolaid disconnect from me when they found that I was no longer a true believer.

This has all been going on since the time L Ron Hubbard started it and I am certain it is not going to end in the near future. It is just an intrinsic quality of this very evil and destructive cult.
 

Teanntás

Silver Meritorious Patron
Just a suggestion for Allen Barton (if someone knows how to contact him)- go ahead and pay the utilities bills directly - I'm quite sure the DWP (electric) and the Gas Co will take a check from anybody for any account. Then have groceries delivered from a local supermarket.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
One of the ironies here is that Scientology is supposed to be able to create high-confront beings who can hold a firm position in space, and yet they cannot comfortably face a little bit of disagreement and criticism.

High-confront being? OTs? Aware?

:hysterical:

They are a bunch of FUCKING BABIES! Babies pretending to be more. :yes:
 

Veda

Sponsor
This is sad.

Hew is a link to Tony's article. http://tonyortega.org/2013/02/26/sc...-music-lovers-this-one-will-break-your-heart/

I am taking this opportunity to ask what at his age Mario is worried about? What will happen to his eternity per Hubbard? He is 90! This can't just be about not getting to be with friends or go to CC..

What's the promise for the next life? That if he accepts money from a declared SP he won't get what? How much more work at 90 can he do on his case and what does it matter for the next go around in your next meat body?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF99yYCE8wI

For a look at Mario being briefly questioned by Dan Rather on the topic of Scientology, while sitting around a table with a couple of other Scientologists - in the wake of Mary Sue Hubbard having been sentenced to federal prison - see 6:18 - 8:05 of the video.

Note: The first - longer - segment of the video is from 1980; the latter, shorter, segment, concerning "C.A.N.," is from the 1990s.
 
One of the ironies here is that Scientology is supposed to be able to create high-confront beings who can hold a firm position in space, and yet they cannot comfortably face a little bit of disagreement and criticism.

High-confront being? OTs? Aware?

:hysterical:

They are a bunch of FUCKING BABIES! Babies pretending to be more. :yes:

Scientology gives you the ability to have cause over life, it allows you to have complete control over matter, energy, space and time, as long as you state within the confines of your own imagination, disconnection to anything or anyone related to reality is a mandatory prerequisite.
 

MissWog

Silver Meritorious Patron
Let me ask this way.. When I see a Scn say they are disconnecting bc no one is going to take their eternity away from them.. What is the promise for a Scientologists eternity?

What does this life give you in the next? Wouldn't you just have to do the bridge all over again if you're "lucky enough" to even know about Scn in the next life? Are you supposed to be born next time with all this great knowledge from the last life?
 

Boson Wog Stark

Patron Meritorious
What happened to his money or his piano students? Health crisis? Give it to the cult? What? It seems like someone so celebrated in the cult, would have to come up with a reason why they have no money for food and are asking for money from a friend and former student.

According to his web site, he still gives lessons and has master classes scheduled. I have mixed feelings about his performance abilities. Some of the things played in the background of his website are very nice though, including his mother's compositions.

If he's such a loyal clam as to refuse it from SPs, let Cruise feed him. Maybe he's just having some age-related memory problems and can't remember his bank account number or something.
 

Reasonable

Silver Meritorious Patron

What will happen to his eternity per Hubbard? He is 90!

Being connected to an SP will make you sick and have accidents. Yes he is 90 but he can still get sick and have accidnets. Also this connection carries on through ---forever---- so if he does not disconnect now he will be connected next lifetime and have a terrible life becaue he is connected to an SP.

Also, if he is connected to an SP then when he dies and tries to get another body he may not do so well becasue he is connected to this SP.


This can't just be about not getting to be with friends or go to CC..

Well...If he does not disconnect then he may lose his friends. Also he get to play at Celebrity Center functions and is a "Celebrity" over there and will lose that status, which I am sure is very imprtant to him.


What's the promise for the next life? That if he accepts money from a declared SP he won't get what?


See above--it is all so crazy
 

MissWog

Silver Meritorious Patron
What will happen to his eternity per Hubbard? He is 90!

Being connected to an SP will make you sick and have accidents. Yes he is 90 but he can still get sick and have accidnets. Also this connection carries on through ---forever---- so if he does not disconnect now he will be connected next lifetime and have a terrible life becaue he is connected to an SP.

Also, if he is connected to an SP then when he dies and tries to get another body he may not do so well becasue he is connected to this SP.


This can't just be about not getting to be with friends or go to CC..

Well...If he does not disconnect then he may lose his friends. Also he get to play at Celebrity Center functions and is a "Celebrity" over there and will lose that status, which I am sure is very imprtant to him.


What's the promise for the next life? That if he accepts money from a declared SP he won't get what?


See above--it is all so crazy
Whoa! That's gonna take me a little time to digest. So I die with any connections to an SP then I carry those connections into my next life (unable to disconnect at that point bc you don't remember who those SPs were!)
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Just a suggestion for Allen Barton (if someone knows how to contact him)- go ahead and pay the utilities bills directly - I'm quite sure the DWP (electric) and the Gas Co will take a check from anybody for any account. Then have groceries delivered from a local supermarket.

That might be a thought for anon PR. Post this dude's address and have stuff delivered to him - useful stuff like food and hygiene items. No cash as the cult probably won't care that it came from publicly loud and proud SP's.

Another thing to consider would be a nice report to APS for elder abuse and affinity fraud (affinity, reality, and communication fraud if that were a thing). I'm sure it is the cult's fault that the guy is 90, starving, and about to loose his housing.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Let me ask this way.. When I see a Scn say they are disconnecting bc no one is going to take their eternity away from them.. What is the promise for a Scientologists eternity?

What does this life give you in the next? Wouldn't you just have to do the bridge all over again if you're "lucky enough" to even know about Scn in the next life? Are you supposed to be born next time with all this great knowledge from the last life?

To understand all of this SP nonsense, one needs to get that there are the 1) case SP, and 2) administrative SP.

Hubbard and Scientology don't make that differentiation, even though the difference is clear and obvious to any even slightly intelligent person.

Case SP:

A "suppressive" is any person or group who has acted to invalidate, crush and NOT-IS the PC. When one thinks back to having known such people, one usually can spot moments of upset, and especially attempts at trying to STOP the invalidation. In some way, on some dynamic, the SP person or group is trying to make you less. In a sense this person or group is acting to damage and destroy your impulses to live and thrive in any area of life.


As I see it, there is some sense to this. I can find examples of people or groups who have behaved or behave like that. It might very well help any person to spot such people, recognize them for what they are, and get them out of your life. On a certain level, THAT is what Scientology SP/PTS Tech is designed to do. For example, I don't want to be good friends with a person who lies and steals, and will probably from me. So I have nothing to do with them. It is a basic survival issue. It is a sanity issue. I suppose you could call this "disconnection", but the term has many other attached meanings in Scientology. Having nothing to do with truly destructive people and groups makes sense.

The key word here is "truly" destructive people and groups. When I get to explaining the administrative SP, this will become clearer.

Next, about the case SP, Hubbard has his theory about HOW and WHY an SP becomes an SP. This also does not seemed entirely far-fetched to me. I am paraphrasing this, but it conveys the gist of it all.

When a person is under a heavy degree of suppression, with the attendant force aimed at invalidating and crushing ones very life force, a person can get "stuck" in this moment. When a person is RESISTING this force that is being levied at him or her, he or she PUSHES BACK with a great deal of resistance. In a sense the person gets locked into this moment of trying to STOP the invalidation or destruction from happening. Another aspect of this, per Scientology theory, and I am not quite so sure about this angle, is that often when a person gets beaten he or she will thereafter "assume the valence of the winner". That means that later the crushed person will assume the beingness and behaviors of the crusher. That is said to be quite automatic and not a conscious decision.

So, combining 1) getting stuck in this incredible intention to STOP the force that is being exerted against you, and 2) switching over into the "winning valence", one thereafter behaves as an SP. In a sense this ultra-concentrated force to STOP what is happening generalizes out to all life, and this person begins to STOP everything anywhere, compulsively. This person sees ALL humanity as a threat, and he or she incorrectly identifies this aim to crush him as coming from all people.

This manifests as the person now acting out these sort of behaviors, quite uncontrollably:

1. Invalidating others
2, Making others wrong
3. Can't complete cycles of action (stuck in the "stop" moment back down the track).
4. Will try to harm betterment activities
5. Alters communications


This is covered in Hubbard's essay, The Anti-Social Personality. Now, while I think there is something to the general theory, and this is even more true if we each actually life thousands of lives spanning great periods of time, it all starts to get nutty when Hubbard enters in the "administrative SP" angle to all of this. There may very well be psychological factors that behave in ways like Hubbard described here.

Additionally, the BEST way to address such situations is to handle any out-ethics that YOU have towards the SP, so that you are less of an effect to the SP, and to get a bit stronger so that you don't succumb. But, if and when you can't HANDLE the SP, the only solution is to get away from them. This is the whole idea between "handle or disconnect".

I am talking about REAL SPs here. For example, what would you do if you lived in Nazi Germany or North Korea? You can't "handle" the oppressive environment. You can't beat them on any playing field of free communication, so what is the best solution? Get away from the oppression, and/or DESTROY the source of the oppression. "Handle or Disconnect" makes total sense in such cases.

Administrative SP:

This is where it gets really nutty. This is where the fiction really begins to take over.

PTS (Potential Trouble Source) is defined as any person or group under the influence of suppression, where suppression is defined as anybody who doesn't like Hubbard or Scientology!

It would take too long to explanation all the various ideas, and how they link together to end off with these conclusions of Hubbard's (though often he just declares that what he says is true - there is no explanation given).

Two very different ideas are mixed up and confused here. First, there could be a name for a person under the influence of active suppression (PTS Type 1, or A) or keyed-in suppression (PTS Type II), but it should NOT be "PTS".

PTS came about as a term that simply meant "any person who might cause Hubbard or Scientology trouble".

It got attached and connected to the idea of suppression, because Hubbard went onto to say that all PTS people, any person who might cause us trouble, is connected to a person who is an SP (who doesn't like us). It actually makes sense if you examine this from the viewpoint of mind control and mind controllers.

Take any ideology that aims at 100% total acceptance, without any disagreement, criticism or questioning. Call everything other than that either "other-intention" or "counter-intention" (which is how Hubbard defines the Purpose of Ethics), and that these would only come from "suppressive persons or groups". Obviously, when it comes to thought control, ANY source of disagreement, criticism or questioning is viewed as BAD. Any sort of disagreement, criticism or questioning causes TROUBLE for the ideological organization. To allow oneself to communicate with information that might result in disagreement, criticism or questioning could potentially cause trouble for the organization (aka "PTS"). See? Setting this all up as Hubbard did really fine tunes the tight thought pool of ideas that exist within the inner Scientology environment. He creates mental walls. But, Hubbard HIDES all of this behind a veil of weird statements and ideas.

Hubbard wrote many of the High Crimes (suppressive acts) as ANY action that hurts Hubbard or Scientology. The false fixed idea here, that justifies that and has it make sense is, "Scientology is Mankind's only hope for the future on every dynamic, for all time and space". Without KSW, it is hard to accept and agree with all the nonsense inherent to Scientology "justice procedures". So, Hubbard defined Scientology as the only valid "betterment group". He then makes the invisible connection that "SPs detest and act to destroy all betterment activities", of course, with the unspoken assumption and assertion that Scientology is the absolute BEST example of a "betterment activity".

The administrative SP is very simply, any person who works against Hubbard or Scientology in any way. It is defined that way. Hubbard defines ethics as the action of spotting and removing counter-intention and other intention (to Scientology). All Scientology ethics and justice is written and designed ONLY to help Scientology and Hubbard. One has to be pretty dumb, or in severe self-denial not to see that.

While there is no actual written order by Hubbard that Scientologists disconnect from administratively declared SPs, it always plays out that way because it is a SEVERE Suppressive Act to communicate with and/or support any suppressive person or group. If you don't want to also get declared as a suppressive person, then you MUST disconnect. Technically, you do have a choice, but REALLY, if you want to stay affiliated with organized Scientology, there is no choice.

One of the flights of logic and reasoning here is that any person declared as an SP by the Church of Scientology MUST also be the Case SP sort of fellow. The way Hubbard put it all together, most obedient sheep of Scientology just accept that as true.

The minds of most Scientologists are an immense confusion of these various statements, ideas and connections. In the end, it is simple.

The Scientologists accepts and believes that Scientology is his or her ONLY hope. This is key, because without that, his or her behavior would be very different. He or she wants to get the services, the Bridge, and to achieve spiritual freedom through Scientology. There are no such things really, but they BELIEVE there are such things and they WANT to realize this imaginary hope. So, when people get declared as SPs, and they have to disconnect, it truly IS logical. To keep the door open for their own "eternity", and to be able to avail themselves of this Bridge to Total Stupidity, he or she will happily disconnect from everybody and anybody. It is entirely true for them when one says, "I am disconnecting to safeguard my eternity". This involves a string of assumptions that result in certain conclusions. The problem here is that most of the assumptions and statements within Scientology are BOGUS!

There is some validity to the ideas of Case SP, but there is NO validity to the ideas of the Administrative SP. And, Hubbard manages to confuse and collapse all of these ideas in the minds of his fanatical followers.
 
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I found the story to be very interesting and appreciate Tony Ortega for reporting it. My own daughter, brother, three sisters, and all of their children have disconnected from me for many years because I no longer agree with the fraud of Scientology.

My own mother disconnected and divorced my dad because he wouldn't drink the koolaid.

I have had acquaintances that I was close to when I was drinking the koolaid disconnect from me when they found that I was no longer a true believer.

This has all been going on since the time L Ron Hubbard started it and I am certain it is not going to end in the near future. It is just an intrinsic quality of this very evil and destructive cult.

jesus, jesus, jesus, jesus, jeee-yayy-zissss...

this disconnection thing has got to go

yeah, yeah, yeah, my apologies to those who get annoyed at me for a firm stance in favor of auditing and auditor training and my affirmation of that which might be termed "OT"

this crap MAKES MY BLOOD BOIL!!!!!
 

Veda

Sponsor
To understand all of this SP nonsense, one needs to get that there are the 1) case SP, and 2) administrative SP.

Hubbard and Scientology don't make that differentiation, even th9ugh the difference is clear an obvious to any even slightly intelligent person.

Case SP:

A "suppressive" is any person or group who has acted to invalidate, crush and NOT-IS the PC. When one thinks back to having known such people, one usually can spot moments of upset, and especially attempts to trying to STOP the invalidation. In some way, on some dynamic, the SP person or group is trying to make you less. In a sense this person or group is acting to damage and destroy your impulses to live and thrive in any area of life.


-snip-

Yes, many terms in Scientology have manipulative multiple meanings.

And, yes, some outside the CofS Scientology defenders of the SP Doctrine, and the term "SP," have sought to salvage that doctrine, and the term, by asserting that there are "Case SPs" and then there are "Administrative SPs." This is an extension of saying there is "Tech tech," and there is "Admin tech," and outside the CofS Scientology is concerned mostly with "Tech tech," etc.

However, it's not necessarily that simple.

When a guy tells his wife that he's going to spend the money they saved to buy a new car, or new house, on "doing the Scientology Bridge to OT," and tells her further that she should join him on the "Scientology Bridge to OT," and his wife tells him that's ridiculous and opposes the idea, and the husband has trouble "going in session" and "having case gain" during his Scientology counseling as a result, his wife become a "technical SP," and one who is attempting to make him less, and destroy his impulse to live, etc.

As for Mario, I haven't examined this story in depth, but does it say why he's disconnecting? Does he have children and grandchildren who are involved with Scientology? He may have some other reason besides worrying about his eternity.
 

Gib

Crusader
One of the ironies here is that Scientology is supposed to be able to create high-confront beings who can hold a firm position in space, and yet they cannot comfortably face a little bit of disagreement and criticism.

High-confront being? OTs? Aware?

:hysterical:

They are a bunch of FUCKING BABIES! Babies pretending to be more. :yes:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/90037364/korzybski-childrenidiots

1-cc8e027393.jpg
 

Gadfly

Crusader
However, it's not necessarily that simple.

When a guy tells his wife that he's going to spend the money they saved to buy a new car, or new house, on "doing the Scientology Bridge to OT," and tells her further that she should join him on the "Scientology Bridge to OT," and his wife tells him that's ridiculous and opposes the idea, and the husband has trouble "going in session" and "having case gain" during his Scientology counseling as a result, his wife become a "technical SP," and one who is attempting to make him less, and destroy his impulse to live, etc.

No, of course, it is not that simple, and usually never is with Hubbard's convoluted subject. As I said in my original post, I would have to spend a GREAT DEAL of time to adequately explain and delineate all the subtleties of descriptions, definitions and related confusions.

Also, what you described is pretty much, to me still "administrative".

To me the basic psychological ideas in the "Case SP" theory might have some validity. All the rest, getting up the Bridge, PTS, case gain, and such is BULLSHIT. I was not separating out the subject into technical "red" and administrative "green". And, I sure don't think that the green volumes, while being a huge problem in their own right, are the only problem.

What you described above is totally true, and just as it happens. That doesn't mean though that there aren't "case SPs", and that people don't in some way go the effect of them (in a "type II" sort of way). It also very much helps to be able to spot real sources of danger and to stay far away from them. That is as true for a tornado as it is for a tyrant.

Note: I would not ever use Hubbard's data on SPs, the anti-social personality, Chart of Attitudes, or Science of Survival to determine true sources of danger in my life. His theories in such regards, while often containing a GERM of truth, are totally invalid in their complete renditions. Following his model of reality and people results in WRONG CONCLUSIONS AND INCORRECT DECISIONS.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
As for Mario, I haven't examined this story in depth, but does it say why he's disconnecting? Does he have children and grandchildren who are involved with Scientology? He may have some other reason besides worrying about his eternity.

:thumbsup:

Yeah, like worrying about whether he will ever be able to see or talk to his family again!

THAT is often a HUGE consideration for WHY people follow the disconnection orders. To do otherwise is to open the door to the very real possibility that YOU will then be declared as a suppressive, and then suffer similar subsequent disconnections.

Threats of disconnection with family and friends is a very effective way to control behavior. Have I recently said that Scientology is a great example of mind control and behavioral control?

:scnsucks:
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

To me the basic psychological ideas in the "Case SP" theory might have some validity. All the rest, getting up the Bridge, PTS, case gain, and such is BULLSHIT. I was not separating out the subject into technical "red" and administrative "green". And, I sure don't think that the green volumes, while being a huge problem in their own right, are the only problem.

-snip-

If "getting up the Bridge, PTS, case gain, and such is BULLSHIT," then perhaps using the Scientology term, "SP," in any form, is ill advised. :)

But I understand what you're trying to say.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
If "getting up the Bridge, PTS, case gain, and such is BULLSHIT," then perhaps using the Scientology term, "SP," in any form, is ill advised. :)

But I understand what you're trying to say.

I agree fully.

But, since it is a board related to Scientology, use of some of the terms has some value. One got into Scientology on a road of agreement with exact terms and specific ideas, and one gets out along a similar road - by letting go of the various terms and ideas. Digging into the details of the meanings and associations of ideas can be helpful in spotting the flaws and errors, and in letting some of them go (if not already let go of).

In normal life, other than this discussion board, I doubt I resort to any Scientology idea or term even .003 percent of the time. In other words, not much.

But yes, to make it sensible, I would REWRITE it in other language - using other terms that disconnect it from the many weird associations and meanings of Scientology.

I am not at all trying to salvage the "good from the bad". While there are decent aspects to be found within the overall subject, to me, once taken out thus renders them as something other than Scientology. Part of Hubbard's ploy was to assert that there was a full and integrated subject called, "Scientology". THAT is bullshit. It is make-believe. It is another of many of Hubbard's statement that he simply tosses out there, and demands acceptance and agreement with.

The "subject of Scientology" is a result of Hubbard's "postulates". It is an idea foisted upon an uncritical and unsuspecting mind. While there surely is a "subject of Scientology", it is not any sort of valid and integrated subject that in any way approaches close to what Hubbard presents it as.

Note: I haven't been involved with Scientology for many years now. I haven't thought within that framework for a long time. But, I can quickly scan back and recall the various ideas as I studied and learned them, and as I agreed with them back then. For the most part I rarely need to refer to any HCOBs or HCOPLs - though sometimes I might do a quick search online to locate the exact idea as stated by Hubturd.
 
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