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Marty Rathbun: thoughts on Scientology and spirituality

Terril park

Sponsor
Re: Marty: Scientology is not a religion, but instead a "spirtual-oriented psychother

Terril, could you please explain how you have come to this conclusion?

I'll give you one way of reasoning on the matter, I'd like to see how you came to your conclusion.

1. Spiritual oriented psycotherapy fits in the category religion.

2. The Co$ sells and practices this Spiritual oriented psycotherapy.

3. Thus the Co$ fits in the category of religion.

4. Religious organizations are granted tax exemption (at least in the USA)

5. Thus it should be tax exempt.

The Catholic Church is a business. It's in the business of saving people's souls. You don't think they take in any cash for the "service"?

This tax exemption is based on certain conditions which CO$ has violated. Then there is the very heavy blackmail....sorry sales pressure. Hand crafted shoes and Rock star lifestyle for DM is inurement.

"Benefit; for example, the 501c3 prohibition against "private inurement" within non-profit entities means that individuals within that organization may not receive excessive compensation or benefit from their employment or association, because such arrangements would contravene the supposed mission of the organization."
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Re: Marty: Scientology is not a religion, but instead a "spirtual-oriented psychother

The loosest definition of "religion" I am aware is basically, "a system of beliefs that provide guidance on how to live in the world and an understanding of one's place in it."

Even under this definition, which arguably covers Marxism and Objectivism, I'm not sure "spiritual psychotherapy" fits.

That's like saying vitalistic chiropractic medicine is a religion.

Scientology, on the other hand, does meet that definition, though only if you drop the pretensions towards being a science, which is I think why Marty is hedging.

Thats a nice definition.

Scientology is a very wide subject with many aspects.

"Psychotherapy is a general term referring to therapeutic interaction or treatment contracted between a trained professional and a client, patient, family, couple, or group. The problems addressed are psychological in nature and can vary in terms of their causes, influences, triggers, and potential resolutions. Accurate assessment of these and other variables is dependent on the practitioner's capability and can change or evolve as the practitioner acquires greater experience, knowledge, and insight.

Psychotherapy aims to increase the individual's sense of his/her own well-being. Psychotherapists employ a range of techniques based on experiential relationship building, dialogue, communication and behavior change that are designed to improve the mental health of a client or patient, or to improve group relationships (such as in a family).

Psychotherapy may also be performed by practitioners with a number of different qualifications, including psychiatry, clinical psychology, counseling psychology, clinical or psychiatric social work, mental health counseling, marriage and family therapy, rehabilitation counseling, school counseling, hypnotherapy, play therapy, music therapy, art therapy, drama therapy, dance/movement therapy, occupational therapy, psychiatric nursing, psychoanalysis and those from other psychotherapies. It may be legally regulated, voluntarily regulated or unregulated, depending on the jurisdiction. Requirements of these professions vary, but often require graduate school and supervised clinical experience. Psychotherapy in Europe is increasingly being seen as an independent profession, rather than being restricted to being practiced only by psychologists and psychiatrists as is stipulated in some countries."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotherapy
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
Re: Marty: Scientology is not a religion, but instead a "spirtual-oriented psychother

Thats a nice definition.

Scientology is a very wide subject with many aspects.

"Psychotherapy is a general term referring to therapeutic interaction or treatment contracted between a trained professional and a client, patient, family, couple, or group. The problems addressed are psychological in nature and can vary in terms of their causes, influences, triggers, and potential resolutions. Accurate assessment of these and other variables is dependent on the practitioner's capability and can change or evolve as the practitioner acquires greater experience, knowledge, and insight.

Psychotherapy aims to increase the individual's sense of his/her own well-being. Psychotherapists employ a range of techniques based on experiential relationship building, dialogue, communication and behavior change that are designed to improve the mental health of a client or patient, or to improve group relationships (such as in a family).

Psychotherapy may also be performed by practitioners with a number of different qualifications, including psychiatry, clinical psychology, counseling psychology, clinical or psychiatric social work, mental health counseling, marriage and family therapy, rehabilitation counseling, school counseling, hypnotherapy, play therapy, music therapy, art therapy, drama therapy, dance/movement therapy, occupational therapy, psychiatric nursing, psychoanalysis and those from other psychotherapies. It may be legally regulated, voluntarily regulated or unregulated, depending on the jurisdiction. Requirements of these professions vary, but often require graduate school and supervised clinical experience. Psychotherapy in Europe is increasingly being seen as an independent profession, rather than being restricted to being practiced only by psychologists and psychiatrists as is stipulated in some countries."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotherapy

What does this have to do with hubbard's scientology, which is designed to lure people into fanatical obedience with empty promises of godhood. Practicing virtues such as compassion and kindness, forgiveness and gratitude, in my experience, is far more valuable enriching my life and those around me than scientology's cognitive dissonance traumatic bonding mind control. This is a part of traumatic bonding that I see being practiced with people coming to terms with their scio past, relabeling and reframing as they go, which is perfectly normal.

Traumatic Bonding - Victims and Survivors of Psychopaths
http://victimsofpsychopaths.wordpress.com/traumatic-bonding/

"Traumatic bonding is “strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other.” (Dutton & Painter, 1981). Several conditions have been identified that must be present for a traumatic bond to occur.

–(1). There must be an imbalance of power, with one person more in control of key aspects of the relationship, such as setting themselves up as the “authority” through such things as controlling the finances, or making most of the relationship decisions, or using threats and intimidations, so the relationship has become lopsided.

–(2). The abusive behavior is sporadic in nature. It is characterized by intermittent reinforcement, which means there is the alternating of highly intense positives (such as intense kindness or affection) and the negatives of the abusive behavior.

–(3). The victim engages in denial of the abuse for emotional self- protection. In severe abuse (this can be psychological or physical), one form of psychological protection strategy is dissociation, where the victim experiences the abuse as if it is not happening to them, but as if they are outside their body watching the scene unfold (like watching a movie). Dissociative states allow the victim to compartmentalize the abusive aspects of the relationship in order to focus on the positive aspects.

The use of denial and distancing oneself from the abuse are forms of what is called cognitive dissonance. In abusive relationships this means that what is happening to the victim is so horrible, so far removed from their thoughts and expectations of the world, that it is “dissonant” or “out of tune” or “at odds” with their pre-existing expectations and reality. Since the victim feels powerless to change the situation, they rely on emotional strategies to try to make it less dissonant, to try to somehow make it fit. To cope with the contradicting behaviors of the abuser, and to survive the abuse, the person literally has to change how they perceive reality. Studies also show a person is more loyal and committed to a person or situation that is difficult, uncomfortable, or even humiliating, and the more the victim has invested in the relationship, the more they need to justify their position. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful “self-preservation” mechanism which can completely distort and override the truth, with the victim developing a tolerance for the abuse and “normalizing” the abusers behavior, despite evidence to the contrary.

–(4). The victim masks that the abuse is happening, may not have admitted it to anyone, not even themselves.

Trauma bonding makes it easier for a victim to survive within the relationship, but it severely undermines the victims self-structures, undermining their ability to accurately evaluate danger, and impairs their ability to perceive of alternatives to the situation.

Once a trauma bond is established it becomes extremely difficult for the victim to break free of the relationship. The way humans respond to trauma is thought to have a biological basis and reactions to trauma was first described a century ago, with the term “railroad spine” being used. Another term used has been “shell shocked”.

Victims overwhelmed with terror suffer from an overload of their system, and to be able to function they must distort reality. They often shut down emotionally, and sometimes later describe themselves as having felt “robotic”, intellectually knowing what happened, but feeling frozen or numb and unable to take action. A victim must feel safe and out of “survival mode” before they will be able to make cognitive changes.

Many victims feel the compulsion to tell and retell the events of the trauma in an attempt to come to terms with what happened to them and to try to integrate it, reaching out to others for contact, safety, and stability. Other victims react in an opposite manner, withdrawing into a shell of self-imposed isolation. The trauma bond can persist even after the victim leaves the relationship, with it sometimes taking months, or even years, for them to completely break the bond."
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Marty: Scientology is not a religion, but instead a "spirtual-oriented psychother

This tax exemption is based on certain conditions which CO$ has violated. Then there is the very heavy blackmail....sorry sales pressure. Hand crafted shoes and Rock star lifestyle for DM is inurement.

"Benefit; for example, the 501c3 prohibition against "private inurement" within non-profit entities means that individuals within that organization may not receive excessive compensation or benefit from their employment or association, because such arrangements would contravene the supposed mission of the organization."

So Terril, if Mike Rinder incorporated a Church of Scientology and got 501c3 status for his church, and didn't charge for services, but instead let people donate to his church as they so chose would you have a problem? Or if DM cleaned up his act and canceled all the abusive policies we all decry, I take it that you would have no problem with its continued existence. You'd sign up for staff and be a happy camper - bringing the wisdom of LRH to the wog world?

I invite you to look at the lifestyle of the Pope. That job doesn't have any perks?
 

SpecialFrog

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Marty: Scientology is not a religion, but instead a "spirtual-oriented psychother

Thats a nice definition.
Scientology is a very wide subject with many aspects.

That doesn't at all address how "spiritual psychotherapy" is a religion.

I agree that Scientology is a religion, though I feel that religion shouldn't inherently be considered a positive statement in any way. I'll also acknowledge that Scientology auditing is a form of psychotherapy, though on the low end of reputability. However, the practice of auditing, divorced from the Scientology system of beliefs, is not a religion.

In psychotherapy, the practitioner generally buys into the ideas behind the method but the patient doesn't have to.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Re: Marty: Scientology is not a religion, but instead a "spirtual-oriented psychother

So Terril, if Mike Rinder incorporated a Church of Scientology and got 501c3 status for his church, and didn't charge for services, but instead let people donate to his church as they so chose would you have a problem? Or if DM cleaned up his act and canceled all the abusive policies we all decry, I take it that you would have no problem with its continued existence. You'd sign up for staff and be a happy camper - bringing the wisdom of LRH to the wog world?

I invite you to look at the lifestyle of the Pope. That job doesn't have any perks?

Very theoretical re MR incorporating.

DM has has a couple of decades to clean up his act and made it worse.

Even with DM incarcerated I wouldn't sign up for staff. Would still protest and push for reform
or disolution.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Re: Marty: Scientology is not a religion, but instead a "spirtual-oriented psychother

That doesn't at all address how "spiritual psychotherapy" is a religion.

I agree that Scientology is a religion, though I feel that religion shouldn't inherently be considered a positive statement in any way. I'll also acknowledge that Scientology auditing is a form of psychotherapy, though on the low end of reputability. However, the practice of auditing, divorced from the Scientology system of beliefs, is not a religion.

In psychotherapy, the practitioner generally buys into the ideas behind the method but the patient doesn't have to.

The loosest definition of "religion" I am aware is basically, "a system of beliefs that provide guidance on how to live in the world and an understanding of one's place in it."

Even under this definition, which arguably covers Marxism and Objectivism, I'm not sure "spiritual psychotherapy" fits.

Works for me.

You said:-

"However, the practice of auditing, divorced from the Scientology system of beliefs, is not a religion."

Auditing is intimately connected to Scn beliefs.
 

SpecialFrog

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Marty: Scientology is not a religion, but instead a "spirtual-oriented psychother

You said:-

"However, the practice of auditing, divorced from the Scientology system of beliefs, is not a religion."

Auditing is intimately connected to Scn beliefs.

There are forms of psychotherapy derived from Buddhist ideas. However, the patient doesn't need to know or care any of this. They are not practicing Buddhism by receiving this form of therapy.

If Marty is really practicing some form of "spiritual psychotherapy" it is not a religion regardless of the beliefs behind the therapeutic approach.
 

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
Marty takes on KSW again. ("Scientology’s Identity Crisis")

Marty takes on KSW again. ("Scientology’s Identity Crisis")
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/scientologys-identity-crisis/
Scientology’s Identity Crisis

Posted on April 25, 2013 by martyrathbun09 | 14 Comments

Scientology auditing technology can be very effective in helping an individual to strip off personality jackets of others that he or she has unwittingly slipped on in life. Paradoxically, Scientology tends to replace those jackets with synthetic ones of its own manufacture.

Scientology requires as a matter of firm policy that one must be a certain identity before one may or can do and have Scientology. Scientology requires its supervisors to convert students into Scientologists before they learn or partake of much Scientology. The supervisors are instructed as follows:

When somebody enrolls, consider he or she has joined up for the duration of the universe – never permit an ‘open-minded’ approach. If they’re going to quit let them quit fast. If they enrolled, they’re aboard; and if they’re aboard, they’re here on the same terms as the rest of us – win or die in the attempt. Never let them be half-minded about being Scientologists…The proper instruction attitude is, ‘You’re here so you’re a Scientologist. Now we’re going to make you into an expert auditor no matter what happens. We’d rather have you dead than incapable.’


And so one of the first things a Scientologist learns to do is to assume an identity he or she has little to no experiential support for the wisdom of assuming. Granted, the passage above makes reference to making an ‘expert auditor’. If the injunction were limited to people training to become professional practitioners in a field, it might make sense – assuming the student had some reason to believe that capability in that field was more important than life itself. But, it is not limited to professionals. The beingness/identity of “Scientologist” is imposed – in this wise – on everyone who embarks upon Scientology study of any kind.

This type of uninformed swearing of allegiance to belief, and even to beingness or identity, is not healthy for an individual (as even Scientology technology ultimately generally teaches a professional auditor) nor for those affected by such an individual. That was made clear by Thomas Paine more than two hundred years ago:

It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. – from The Age of Reason
 

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
Marty: "the religious cult of Scientology" "the religious cloak"

Marty has moved far past blaming everything on DM, and now clearly blames problems in Scientology on Hubbard's written policies and, ultimately, Hubbard himself.

Marty also again differentiates himself from the Fundamentalist Independent Scientologists who have criticized and attacked him.

Marty: "the religious cult of Scientology" "the religious cloak" ("The Quest: Quixotian or Gandhian?")
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/the-quest-quixotian-or-gandhian/
The Quest: Quixotian or Gandhian?

Posted on April 29, 2013 by martyrathbun09 | 41 Comments

On his ‘Dean of Technology’ course titled Class VIII, L. Ron Hubbard advises that the ultimate state of consciousness attainable in Scientology (dubbed OT, for Operating Thetan) is simple. The state is attained when the individual no longer carries any lies with him. An individual is as OT as he doesn’t walk about with lies.

So it is with Scientology itself. As a subject it contains a wonderful body of technology for helping to strip a person of the lies through which he filters the universe around him. The biggest problem with broad dissemination and application of that technology is its self-imposed prohibition on differentiating that technology from the broader body of Scientology work that is chock-full of lies.

Because of the religious cloak with which L. Ron Hubbard chose to enwrap Scientology, the discernment of truth from lies within Scientology is not an easy task. L. Ron Hubbard wrote a large body of doctrine satanizing anyone who attempts to look at his body of work in a critical fashion. In fact, the very term ‘criticism’ – at least when directed toward Hubbard or Scientology – has been solidly re-defined in Scientology to be the activity of only sociopaths and criminals.

Thus in 1967 Hubbard published an article in a Scientology journal for all Scientologists to heed and adhere to. Entitled Critics of Scientology it pronounced the following:

Now, get this as a technical fact, not a hopeful idea. Every time we have investigated the background of a critic of Scientology, we have found crimes for which that person could be imprisoned under existing law. We do not find critics of Scientology who do not have criminal pasts…


…If you, the criticized, are savage enough and insistent in your demand for the crime, you’ll get the text, meter or no meter. Never discuss Scientology with the critic. Just discuss his or her crimes, known and unknown. And act completely confident that those crimes exist. Because they do.

Hubbard issued dozens of pages of directives to his church to investigate - with the aim of destruction of – critics of Scientology. When the ‘technical fact’ he preached above proved to be utterly false (as determined by the intelligence agency he created to prove it – called the Guardian’s Office), Hubbard advised the agency to skip the investigations, create and plant and then ‘discover’ and expose the evidence of crime. He was particularly vicious and ruthless in his directives to destroy those who attempted to clarify, refine, or simplify Scientology technology so as to reach more people effectively.

In a 1955 Professional Auditor’s Bulletin Hubbard directed Scientologists on how to deal with Scientologists not toeing the line with the religious cult of Scientology as follows:

Personally, if I were an auditor and found my area being muddied up to that extent, I would have a definite feeling, if I permitted it to go on, that I was not doing all I could do to spread Scientology in my area. I would have taken such a screwball out of the running so fast he would have thought he had been hit by a Mack truck, and I don’t mean thought-wise. But then the difference between me and an apathetic auditor is that I fight, and I get things done.


Hubbard advised that such screwballs be sued in the following manner:

The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win. The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he is not authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause his professional decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly.


Hubbard dealt with what he called ‘squirrels’ (defined as those who alter Scientology) in such wise to the very end of his life. In fact, the last person who served as his own auditor in the late seventies and who was the Hubbard-appointed senior-most Scientology technical supervisor in the world, one David Mayo, was the final target of such Hubbard scorn. When Mayo started practicing Scientology outside of the control of the cult in the early nineteen-eighties Hubbard directed that the church ‘squash him like a bug.’ Notwithstanding that Mayo’s essential ‘clarification’ concerning Scientology was that the violent, combative aspects were not true L. Ron Hubbard technology.

It is because of the above that the Office of Special Affairs continues to attempt to destroy my wife and me – and anyone else who does stand for truth when it comes to Scientology. It is not because David Miscavige tells them to. It is because they are religiously bound to attempt to destroy us by any means necessary.

The violent, reactive attitude toward ‘squirrels’ is so deeply implanted in Scientologists that even the latest ‘independent Scientology’ movement – which the church of Scientology dubs ‘squirrel’ – facily accuses people attempting to differentiate workable Scientology technology from its ample supply of lies as being ‘gestapo’, ‘war criminals’, and ‘Nazis.’


Ironically, this firmly implanted, combative attitude is one-hundred and eighty degrees, diametrically opposed to the attitudes, states of mind, and states of consciousness that sane, understanding application of Scientology processes are capable of bringing about.

My views and aims have not much changed in the past four years. In sum, to the extent that that which works in Scientology can be differentiated from that which disables, by – among other things – radicalization, L. Ron Hubbard’s ideas have a future. To the degree that differentiation process is killed, Hubbard’s ideas die.

I am letting it be known that in spite of the ample back stabbing, cur dog yapping, and undermining and severing of all of our sources of support that we’ve encountered in the past four years, we continue to pursue our course. Whether the quest turns out to be more Quixotian or more Gandhian will likely be apparent by the end of this year in my estimation.

“Too much sanity may be madness. And maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be.
” - Dale Wasserman, playwright, attributed to Don Quixote author Miguel Cervantes in the play, The Man From La Mancha

“A ‘No’ uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a ‘Yes’ merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble.”
– Mahatma Gandhi
 

Veda

Sponsor
Re: Marty: "the religious cult of Scientology" "the religious cloak"

Marty has moved far past blaming everything on DM, and now clearly blames problems in Scientology on Hubbard's written policies and, ultimately, Hubbard himself.

Marty also again differentiates himself from the Fundamentalist Independent Scientologists who have criticized and attacked him.

Marty: "the religious cult of Scientology" "the religious cloak" ("The Quest: Quixotian or Gandhian?")
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/the-quest-quixotian-or-gandhian/

Quoting Marty Rathbun:

"When David Mayo started practicing Scientology outside of the control of the cult in the early nineteen eighties, Hubbard directed that the church 'squash him like a bug'. Notwithstanding that Mayo's essential clarification concerning Scientology was that the violent, combative aspects were not true L. Ron Hubbard Scientology."

Firstly, congratulations to Marty for the progress he's making in finding his way out of the Hubbard labyrinth.

He has a ways to go, but it looks promising.

Secondly, what Marty is describing as "David Mayo's essential clarification" may have been accurate, for a while, after his first leaving the CofS, but he continued to evolve and grow and, ultimately, moved beyond Scientology and ceased considering himself to be a Scientologist.

Thirdly, Marty, I hate to tell you this, but "true L. Ron Hubbard Scientology" is not what you're trying very hard to convince yourself it is.

But, no matter, you just need some more time.
 

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
Re: Marty: "the religious cult of Scientology" "the religious cloak"

Quoting Marty Rathbun:

"When David Mayo started practicing Scientology outside of the control of the cult in the early nineteen eighties, Hubbard directed that the church 'squash him like a bug'. Notwithstanding that Mayo's essential clarification concerning Scientology was that the violent, combative aspects were not true L. Ron Hubbard Scientology."

Firstly, congratulations to Marty for the progress he's making in finding his way out of the Hubbard labyrinth.

He has a ways to go, but it looks promising.

Secondly, what Marty is describing as "David Mayo's essential clarification" may have been accurate, for a while, after his first leaving the CofS, but he continued to evolve and grow and, ultimately, moved beyond Scientology and ceased considering himself to be a Scientologist.

Thirdly, Marty, I hate to tell you this, but "true L. Ron Hubbard Scientology" is not what you're trying very hard to convince yourself it is.

But, no matter, you just need some more time.
Yeah, I noticed the small logical problem there.

How, exactly, do you tell L. Ron Hubbard that aspects of Scientology are "not true L. Ron Hubbard Scientology?" :confused2: Wait, what? :duh:

Leaving that aside for a moment, like I said in the OP Marty has moved well past blaming everything on DM, and ignoring the objectionable aspects of the Tech. The Fundamentalist Independent Scientologists (FISists) won't forgive him for that. Then again, hard core critics won't forgive Marty his efforts to extract, retain or even recognize anything of value in Scientology -- even leaving aside Marty's prior history.
 

Andtheyalllived

Patron with Honors
I really like what Marty is doing. I think he will lose readers, and I use the word readers loosely, but without the red meat...

He's reading everything, and he's communicating it. I'll be damned.
 

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
Re: Marty: "the religious cult of Scientology" "the religious cloak"

Marty has moved far past blaming everything on DM, and now clearly blames problems in Scientology on Hubbard's written policies and, ultimately, Hubbard himself.

Marty also again differentiates himself from the Fundamentalist Independent Scientologists who have criticized and attacked him.

Marty: "the religious cult of Scientology" "the religious cloak" ("The Quest: Quixotian or Gandhian?")
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/the-quest-quixotian-or-gandhian/
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/the-quest-quixotian-or-gandhian/#comment-264321
Lynne | April 29, 2013 at 2:29 pm | Reply

Marty, you say, “When the ‘technical fact’ he preached above proved to be utterly false (as determined by the intelligence agency he created to prove it – called the Guardian’s Office), Hubbard advised the agency to skip the investigations, create and plant and then ‘discover’ and expose the evidence of crime.” Can you give examples?
c2d94d163a566268e73c8b0195b6c03a
martyrathbun09 | April 29, 2013 at 4:14 pm | Reply

Spelled out in some detail in my upcoming book. May post on it if seems relevant in future.
 

Andtheyalllived

Patron with Honors
Ok, just STOP IT Marty. Quit being a dick and shilling your book. The abrupt answers only remind people of who we are afraid you still are.
 

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
Re: Marty: "the religious cult of Scientology" "the religious cloak"

Marty has moved far past blaming everything on DM, and now clearly blames problems in Scientology on Hubbard's written policies and, ultimately, Hubbard himself.

Marty also again differentiates himself from the Fundamentalist Independent Scientologists who have criticized and attacked him.

Marty: "the religious cult of Scientology" "the religious cloak" ("The Quest: Quixotian or Gandhian?")
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/the-quest-quixotian-or-gandhian/
It appears there are Independent Scientologists who disagree with Marty.

https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/the-quest-quixotian-or-gandhian/#comment-264347

ealadha | April 29, 2013 at 4:12 pm | Reply

The crimes they have committed have been done in this life or a past life.
If you can’t find the crime they have committed , then look earlier on the track.
I agree with LRH on this, anyone who is critical of scientology is a criminal.
742817c1603c6e5f9f5086f4763a57b5
iamvalkov | April 29, 2013 at 4:47 pm | Reply

ealadha, then the key question to me is, What do you mean by “scientology”?
Certainly anyone who actually looks at the current policies and conduct of many people connected with the CoS can’t help but conclude that it is a dangerous and criminally inclined corrupt organization from the top down.
df3dbda5ead3f595c6054fcf1c0bb486
ealadha | April 29, 2013 at 5:18 pm | Reply

I mean the original scientology that was developed by L.Ron Hubbard.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Re: Marty: "the religious cult of Scientology" "the religious cloak"

Marty has moved far past blaming everything on DM, and now clearly blames problems in Scientology on Hubbard's written policies and, ultimately, Hubbard himself.

Marty also again differentiates himself from the Fundamentalist Independent Scientologists who have criticized and attacked him.

Marty: "the religious cult of Scientology" "the religious cloak" ("The Quest: Quixotian or Gandhian?")
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/the-quest-quixotian-or-gandhian/

First Comminicator I/C,thank you for all your excellent posts.

"Mayo started practicing Scientology outside of the control of the cult in the early nineteen-eighties Hubbard directed that the church ‘squash him like a bug.’ Notwithstanding that Mayo’s essential ‘clarification’ concerning Scientology was that the violent, combative aspects were not true L. Ron Hubbard technology."

In the early days of Marty's blog I'd raised or responded to comments about Mayo.
When I met him 3 or so years ago he was eager to see if I had any ARCX on this subject, and tried to help me. He did though have the "op term" idea in that he was the prime mover in the Mayo law suit. And made play about Mayo being " tricky" [can't recall exact words]

Now he seems on side with Mayo. A definite change.
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: Marty: "the religious cult of Scientology" "the religious cloak"

Quoting Marty Rathbun:

"When David Mayo started practicing Scientology outside of the control of the cult in the early nineteen eighties, Hubbard directed that the church 'squash him like a bug'. Notwithstanding that Mayo's essential clarification concerning Scientology was that the violent, combative aspects were not true L. Ron Hubbard Scientology."

Keeping scientology working by hubbard,

seems to be nothing to do with exchange in adundance, otherwise the world be knocking on scientology doors saying let me in. :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

oh wait, scientology needs to hard sell people to continue with services. :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: Marty: "the religious cult of Scientology" "the religious cloak"

It appears there are Independent Scientologists who disagree with Marty.

https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/the-quest-quixotian-or-gandhian/#comment-264347


"ealadha | April 29, 2013 at 4:12 pm | Reply

The crimes they have committed have been done in this life or a past life.
If you can’t find the crime they have committed , then look earlier on the track.
I agree with LRH on this, anyone who is critical of scientology is a criminal."

:duh:

This is deep indoctrination

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination

has this person not even realized that it may or not be true for himself/herself unless he/she observed it in real life. Per hubbard's own words. :melodramatic:
 
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