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MICHEL - CANCER AND SUICIDE ON SOLO NOTS

RolandRB

Rest in Peace
Two quotes from CS Lewis The Screwtape Letters come to mind:

"And since what they are trying to believe may, in some cases, be manifest nonsense, they cannot succeed in believing it and we have the chance of keeping their minds endlessly revolving on themselves in an effort to achieve the impossible" Letter 14 of the Screwtape Letters

" An ever increasing craving for an ever diminishing pleasure is the formula. It is more certain; and it's better style. To get a man's soul and give him NOTHING in return...."

Joe Harrington was digging into cancer and suicide on the "upper levels" - I dont recall where his writeups are, I do recall he found many, a lot, including joe himself ultimately... who died of pancreatic cancer...

See OCMB Thread "How many have to die"

And 30% of OTs have or died of cancer - Scientology-cult.com

and there is evidence that the E-meter's minute direct current current may be a contributing factor per Becker et al. see 7th link down LINK

This 30% is nothing unusual and is due to the age range of OTs who will be mostly from 45 years old upwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Causes_of_death_by_age_group_(percent).png
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
Long thread is long! I haven't read it all, but the subject of OTs and cancer is one that I've wondered about for a lot of years.

There's an article today on vitamins that can hurt you in excess doses (and we all took excess doses!) including info about excess vitamin E and a likelihood of cancer. Do you think the endless need to scarf down fistfuls of vites to "be sessionable" is a contributing factor to the cancer rate in OTs?

Here is the article if you'd like to read it also. A snippet: "The National Cancer Institute was so hopeful that vitamin E supplements would decrease rates of prostate cancer that in 2001 it funded a study designed to test the theory. Instead, the findings revealed that the men who took vitamin E were 17 percent more likely—not less—to develop the disease."

And another: "A form of vitamin A called beta-carotene is thought to help prevent cancer—but perhaps only when obtained through the diet. In pill form, it seems to do just the opposite. Much as the pivotal vitamin E study backfired, so did the Alpha-Tocopherol Beta-Carotene Cancer Prevention Study, which found that male smokers who took beta-carotene supplements were 18 percent more likely to develop lung cancer, and 8 percent more likely to die, than the ones who did not."
 

whoisxenu

Patron with Honors
Okay, I think vital distinction was missed here - "This 30% is nothing unusual and is due to the age range of OTs who will be mostly from 45 years old upwards.":nervous:

Yes, I suspect that might be true, of the PEOPLE WHO DIE, 30% have cancer.:coolwink:

But that is FAR different than saying 30% of OT's DIE OF CANCER.:no:

To illustrate - 10 OTs die in the past 10 years - 3 die of cancer = 30% of the dead OTs die of Cancer.:bigcry:

But - take 1000 OTs - and 30% die in 10 years of Cancer = 300 DEAD OTs.:omg:

Just sayin'
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Michel seems to have just disappeared. Does anyone know what happened?

I believe he is the same man who has been posting on WWP for years and still posts there occasionally as MichaelOT8 or something like that. Can anyone confirm?
 

IMMORTAL

Patron Meritorious
I believe he is the same man who has been posting on WWP for years and still posts there occasionally as MichaelOT8 or something like that. Can anyone confirm?

Oh, Gottabrain. I'm certain he's not Michael OT8. Michael OT8 is OT8. I've seen his writings before. Michel worked at FSO in the Solo NOTS area. I think he was a DofP and he was not OT8. Michel spilled a lot of confidential behind-the-scenes information about Solo NOTS statistics in a relatively short period of time and then - boom - didn't hear from him anymore. I seem to recall he was helping an Italian lady with a lawsuit she had against the church or something about her mishandlings and all the money she lost? That was a mess. Then, I haven't seen that he's posted anywhere. :confused2:
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hello! This thread is to answer Tommy Davis’s glibness.

I met Tommy during my second EPF in the Sea Org (actually a 2 months Boot Camp type of EPF), he was eating beans and rice every day, washing our clothes, doing the worst MEST work you can imagine, doing pumps up for hours...because he fucked up a "VIP" cycle.

At that time he wasn’t so proud to be a Sea Org Member, I can tell you.

Now, let’s talk about cancer and suicide on Solo Nots. Here are some data for you guys.

There is a tag status for each Solo Nots auditor:

Green tag: audit 4 to 6 sessions daily and comes on time for his 6 months check.

Grey tag: audit less than 4 sessions daily and doesn't come on time for his 6 month check.

Orange tag: Not allowed to solo audit because of out ethics situation.

Purple tag: Not allowed to audit because of illness or sickness.

Black tag: Disaffected with the church.

See the way it works? One starts the level with a Green tag then, depending on his "ability to be Cause over Life" one keeps his Green tag or, follow the dwindling spiral to Black tag.

There are about 5,300 Solo Nots Auditors worldwide and about(depending on their current status):

1,000 Green tags
1,100 Grey tags
900 Orange tags
800 Purple tags
1,500 Black tags

The 10,000 on Solo Nots is just a dream. There is only 1,000 of them auditing regularly.

I was Solo Nots D of P Europe and i personally met the following Solo Nots Auditors. They were all with advanced cancer:

• Roberto B. – Italy
• Antonella B. – Italy
• Beppe G. – Italy
• Sonia B. – Italy
• Pierluigi G. – Italy
• Bernard C. – Switzerland
• Jo R. - Switzerland
• Tasa D. – France
• Helene M. – France

There is more, but I do not remember their names.

Before I blew the Sea Org in November 2006,two of them died of committed suicide; Jo R. and Beppe G.

I don’t know if the other ones are still alive.

The majority of the 800 Purple tags and 1,500 Black tags are with cancer, HIV, diabetes and non optimum physical conditions.

The majority of the 900 Orange tags committed financial irregularities to be able to “pay for services and/or donations” to the Cult.

Rex Fowler is a typical Orange tag product of the Cult.

You all know the PTS/SP tech “theory”, right?

How many of them had to disconnect from their family and friends because they where the ”SP”?

Why, after an entire bridge people are still sick, ill, criminal, commit suicide, etc..?

Maybe they didn’t find the real SP yet..... or, if they did, they invalidated the read.

At one point every body on Solo Nots had to do or re do the PTS/SP Course GAT.

And the SNR C/S FSO Richard Reiss (pushed by RTC, of course) was constantly harrassing the Solo Nots C/S "because they didn't apply the PTS tech at 100%" during their C/Sing.

Well, a cancerous tumor is not detectable by a SN C/S as far as i know!

I can attest! Beppe G. had a cancerous tumor the size of an egg in his brain while at Flag to "Attest to OT7"! I went with him to the Clearwater Hospital. He was sent back to Italy right away by RTC....

Imagine the Flap if Beppe died in the middle of the Solo Nots HGC!

These data should be widely disseminated. It’ s not a joke. These guys are really in danger.

Michel.

PS: the medical associations should be aware of this data. Scientology technology doesn't cure cancer....when a cancer isn't detected on time, it's too late. Unfortunalely, from a Scientologist view point, a doctor is considered a charlatan.

Wow...this is incredible. I had a feeling when I was on the lower part of the bridge that "going up the Oatee levels was dangerous and that I would never do them - did not see any products I liked - the cancer - the suicides - the nasty Oatee's I met - amazing post and needs to be revived for the lurkers out there that have any doubt! Please LOOK!:omg:
 

Reasonable

Silver Meritorious Patron
These data should be widely disseminated. It’ s not a joke. These guys are really in danger.

First of all I would like to say Great Post. I love the specifics.

In reference to the “danger” of auditing which of the statements are you saying?

Is the danger this:

• If you get sick you do not get treatment but rather do more auditing? In that case I agree.

• Or are you saying that the audting process actually causes caner?

I personally think it is the first statement not the second because if it is the second then you may have to admit that if it can do something bad it may also be able to do something good. Rather than it being a waste of time and pretty much a head fake.

I think if you are saying that it causes these illnesses you need to do some statistics on how many people got cancer while doing these levels as compared to the normal population not auditing. I am no statistic expert so I don’t know how this would be done.

Just wanted to know your position on this.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
I doubt that auditing of any kind actively causes cancer or suicide. But I can imagine that people willing to spend months and years holding imaginary conversations with body thetans for hours each day may also disproportionately be the sort of people to ignore a strange pain in the hope it will magically go away, or to retreat from real-life problems to the point of choosing suicide.

That sort of correlation might be enough to produce an alarmingly high rate of cancer and suicide deaths among upper level OTs. But it also remains true that by the time anyone raises enough money to pay for those levels, and then gets through them, they are probably into the age range at which cancer, if not suicide, is more common anyway.
 
I doubt that auditing of any kind actively causes cancer or suicide. But I can imagine that people willing to spend months and years holding imaginary conversations with body thetans for hours each day may also disproportionately be the sort of people to ignore a strange pain in the hope it will magically go away, or to retreat from real-life problems to the point of choosing suicide.

That sort of correlation might be enough to produce an alarmingly high rate of cancer and suicide deaths among upper level OTs. But it also remains true that by the time anyone raises enough money to pay for those levels, and then gets through them, they are probably into the age range at which cancer, if not suicide, is more common anyway.

All that coupled with the fact that historically several of the environments created by the church for staff & public, especially public on upper levels, have been replete with carcinogens. Witness the fiasco of asbestos on the Freewinds and the likely presence of asbestos on the orginal Sea Org vessels as one such example. Given the use of sea org labor on many especially messy industrial clean up jobs since the first acquisitions of the Sea Org vessels and public access to such spaces, elevated rates of illness aren't necessarily surprising, nor evidence of anything to do with the advanced level materials themselves.


Mark A. Baker
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
All that coupled with the fact that historically several of the environments created by the church for staff & public, especially public on upper levels, have been replete with carcinogens. Witness the fiasco of asbestos on the Freewinds and the likely presence of asbestos on the orginal Sea Org vessels as one such example. Given the use of sea org labor on many especially messy industrial clean up jobs since the first acquisitions of the Sea Org vessels and public access to such spaces, elevated rates of illness aren't necessarily surprising, nor evidence of anything to do with the advanced level materials themselves.

Asbestos is primarily associated with mesothelioma and asbestosis. Mesothelioma is a cancer; asbestosis is more similar to black lung disease. But not all these different cancers.

If your point is that obviously the Co$ didn't mind exposing them to one carcinogen so there may have been others, I see your point. However, I have been kicking around another theory with someone via PM's. The Co$ methods are very stressful on its members. Stress is known to do all sorts of damage, including damage to the immune system. Cancer is what happens when an immune system fails to destroy a mutated cell in a timely manner. I happen to believe that at least some of these cancers were caused by the stress of being in the Co$ (not necessarily being a Scientologist, since the wheat and chaff piecemeal approach in the FZ is much less stressful).

I would personally be interested in knowing if there are comparable rates of cancer in the high level OT's in the FZ.
 
... If your point is that obviously the Co$ didn't mind exposing them to one carcinogen so there may have been others, I see your point. ....

Basically yes. :yes:

Carcinogens are common in old construction and the church has refurbished a lot of old buildings on the cheap using scientology labor. PAC was built in 1928 and served as a full service medical hospital for decades. Other buildings have similar construction and usage questions. Concern for environmental factors is a relatively recent phenomenon in the church, and that is motivated more by pr interests than the well being of persons.

Nor does construction include concern for life style issues such as the high incidence of smoking among scientologists, staff & public and frequent exposure to second hand smoke, poor diet, and other physical stressors routinely experienced by scientologists. Any study of the incidence of cancer among scientologists would have to account for all such factors and very likely other specific potential threat sources.

Accordingly comparisons of cancer among scientologists with so called 'normal rates' among a broader population need not be applicable.


... I would personally be interested in knowing if there are comparable rates of cancer in the high level OT's in the FZ.

Strictly speaking no one has ever established as a fact that there is in fact an excessively high rate of cancer among any sub-group of scientologists. All such reports are strictly opinions based on anecdotes. That sort of data has little credibility from a medical perspective.

Trying to establish the same thing for the freezone would be next to impossible. And even if it could be done, speaking hypothetically, it would also have to account for the fact that most high level ots in the freezone are former members of the church. So any patterns observable in rates of disease would likely reflect any pattern that might be present in Co$ data.

In short all such thoughts about rates of occurrence of cancer among different groups of scientologists is wildly speculative and based on a complete absence of any real data.


Mark A. Baker
 
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Hatshepsut

Crusader
:

If you get sick you do not get treatment but rather do more auditing? In that case I agree.

• Or are you saying that the audting process actually causes caner?

I personally think it is the first statement not the second because if it is the second then you may have to admit that if it can do something bad it may also be able to do something good. Rather than it being a waste of time and pretty much a head fake.

I think if you are saying that it causes these illnesses you need to do some statistics on how many people got cancer while doing these levels as compared to the normal population not auditing. I am no statistic expert so I don’t know how this would be done.

Just wanted to know your position on this.



I remember spotting that I had a bunch of BTs dramatizing some nervouosness and dementia as a physical condition and there were numerous track incidents in cross restimulatiion that I could sense. I was out of Review money. I suffered through this figuring it was some kind of boil off....but man.... did it feel REAL!. No medical treatment was necessary because it was only in the 'theta universe'. :blush: (This I knew with utter certaintly) :blush: 20 years later my solo meter keeps crashing hard right on 'Are you physically ill?':unsure: But that don't mean nuthin to me. :no: It ended up doing me quite some damage cause I did have the problem in the 'real universe'. :bigcry:

I guess having those same exact symptoms triggered from all those earlier related incidents made those into an accumulated mass. A mass of flashing pictures trying to TELL me something! So I just went lookin for the SP who was causing those warnings to flash and ignored the actual information I should have been grateful to receive.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
I've said it before here on ESMB but I'll say it again;

One of the major contributing factors in this scenario is that Auditors on Upper Levels tend to avoid proper medical diagnostic tests. They know that any diagnosis of a life-threatening disease will automatically make them ineligible for further auditing per Hubbard's "Illegal PCs" policy and so they choose to "not-know" rather than risk becoming ineligible for auditing.
:duh:
 

Terril park

Sponsor
I've said it before here on ESMB but I'll say it again;

One of the major contributing factors in this scenario is that Auditors on Upper Levels tend to avoid proper medical diagnostic tests. They know that any diagnosis of a life-threatening disease will automatically make them ineligible for further auditing per Hubbard's "Illegal PCs" policy and so they choose to "not-know" rather than risk becoming ineligible for auditing.
:duh:

Thats a very good point!

With regard to cancer in the FZ I know of 3 cases. A friend died, Alan Walter died, this seemed connected to a long cigar smoking habit, and I know of one other with prostate cancer. I'm connected at least peripherally
to most in the FZ. There may well be many with cancer that I'm not aware of. However the forums I'm on have several thousand FZ members. Far as
I can tell incidence of cancer is pretty low in the FZ.
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
In short all such thoughts about rates of occurrence of cancer among different groups of scientologists is wildly speculative and based on a complete absence of any real data.


Mark A. Baker

Not quite true, Mark. To date, there has been no OFFICIAL STUDY on cancer amongst Scientologists. There have been loose, amateur surveys that give a fair indication that there is a need for such a study - Is there a higher incidence of cancer occurring amongst Scientologists compared to other, similar groups? and if the incidence is no higher, then the question is, "Is there a lower mortality rate (age of death) amongst Scientologists with cancer?"

There are some indications that the first question might achieve a "yes". There are strong indications that the second question would achieve a "yes", primarily because most Scientologists do not seek or receive adequate medical care.

The wild speculation is over the WHY, not whether or not more Scientologists die of cancer earlier in life than those who seek and obtain appropriate medical services when needed.

Prostate cancer, for example, is fully treatable if caught early. It is known as the cancer men die WITH, not the cancer men die OF. But I know a country man who died of prostate cancer just because he refused to get medical care. He could have lived another 15 years - with his health - if he had sought and received treatment. He refused.

Skin cancers are also highly treatable if caught early. Brain cancer (not lung cancer that has gone from the lungs to the brain) is highly treatable if caught early - it is a very slow cancer and the treatment is limited to JUST the area with the cancer.

Breast and other cancers that are in contained organs are also treatable - unless left so long that they spread to other body parts.

But yeh, the CAUSES for the deaths from cancer of Scns has been highly speculative.
 

DagwoodGum

Squirreling Dervish
I think the biggest factor is that there has never been as royal a mind fuck as the Scientology upper levels in the history of man. The effects upon a follower are extreme, both physically and psychologically. One's sanity and physicality are eroded systematically until one is past the point of any possible return to physical and mental health and one then perishes. :violent:


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