Mike Rinder posted something important today

Discussion in 'Leaving Scientology' started by Chris Shelton, Dec 6, 2016.

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  1. CommunicatorIC

    CommunicatorIC @IndieScieNews on Twitter

    Which Mike cannot do without potentially exposing himself to civil and criminal liability -- and thus threatening his family.

    As I noted above, Mike cannot rely on any statute of limitations defense because of legal doctrines that suspend the running of the statute of limitations such as fraudulent concealment, equitable tolling, equitable estoppel, minority, incapacity, or simply being physically outside a particular jurisdction.

    My advice to Mike would be not to do it. If, hypothetically, I had a wife and child I would not endanger their futures and our family to do it.

    If Gerry didn't like that, I would completely understand. I would not, however, engage in an action that could threaten my family just because he is not satisfied with a "general" apology and wants "specific details that can stand up in a court of law."

    Honestly, I think that if Mike didn't have a wife and child, then there *might* be some chance that Gerry would get what he wants. Given that Mike does have a wife and a small child, I think the probability of Gerry getting what he wants is precisely zero.
  2. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thanks. I had missed your earlier comment about statute of limitations regarding liabilities. States evidence comes to mind.

    I did however find it very stomach turning to spend perhaps an hour reading the CSI twisted dead agenting reply to the IRS in their dispicable efforts to fend off admitting responsibilty any crimes of Hubbard and the various Scientology crime syndications. Lots of court cases I am sure cost a lot of money.
    I am so grateful that Gerry made the effort to make public the despicable aspects of Hubbard and his organizations AND that Mike has followed his lead.
  3. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    Good points. But, assuming that the statute of limitations on criminal liability has long since expired, there remains only the issue of civil liability.

    However, if any parties wished to participate in an open forum (to air and hopefully resolve a grievance), they could very simply execute a mutual waiver and indemnification. Sure, it's a long-shot, but the orchestration of such "healing" events have actually (recently) become more commonplace with victim-meets-offender in what are referred to as "restorative justice & mediation" in extremely serious criminal matters that include violent crimes of the worst kind.

    Who knows in this wild and wacky world of reality TV--stranger things have happened. If I was one of the producers of Leah's A&E show, I'd have her do a segment with Jerry and then film the moment when she goes to Mike and asks him if he'd be willing to help a victim of Fair Game by providing some info that he may well have as former head of OSA. That might be an awful way to push Mike into having to participate, but it wouldn't be unfair in the sense that Mike got a wide berth to tell his story about being mercilessly fair gamed--so why wouldn't it be balanced to let someone else do that where he was the fair-gamer.

    I'd hate to see it all orchestrated as an ambush, because that cheapens the entire event. But, that would sure be one hell of a show, the likes of which have never been seen before; former Scientologists (both victims and victimizers) sitting down in a room to let it all be heard, with the hopes of some closure happening at meeting's end.
  4. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    HH- You bring to mind a question - is Leah's show better served by having Sceintology critics on or people who are not in the public eye? While I can see the average public may not know that Amy Scobee has published a book critical of Scientology, Mike is the opposite. Not only is he on the first show as a sort of co-host, he's just been featured on the second. He has a reputation as a critic and has an active blog, and is more visual in the public's eye.

    If she only has on former execs who are critical of the church, doesn't that weaken her position?

  5. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    I would suggest that the viewing public doesn't care in the least about the "former exec" status or any other nuanced description. I think the public only wants to watch compelling TELL-ALL stories that are both emotionally binding and that reveal very awful truths about the bizarre cult of scientology.

    Former execs, in many respects, gives the show even greater authority and gravitas--simply because those folks were the former fanatical guards, enforcers and fair gamers. So, their transformation to an ex-scn victim is all the more remarkable.

    More bluntly, I'd rather hear a story about an escaping billion-year slave who is almost run down making a run for freedom on his motorcycle than a Dentist who is whining that he spent 200,000 dollars on getting superpowers and now they won't give him his money back. I'll bet a fair percentage of viewers are silently thinking to themselves "...a fool and his money are easily parted", lol.

    But dirt-poor S.O. slaves, forced to eat slop, sleep under a desk and to experience all manner of degradations--and then having to plot an actual prison break--after which the cult sends out goon-squads with headcams......well that stuff is too delicious and incredible for words. lol
  6. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    I hope you aren't lumping all non-so public in to the rich whale category - many of who have had their lives trashed by Scientology's toxic disconnection policies, among other tragedies. Why would their stories be any less compelling then ex SO staff?

  7. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    Their stories ARE compelling -- as long as we stay focused on things like Fair Game, disconnection, and the use of the "Ethics" system to cover up criminal acts committed against Scientologists. I agee, though, with HH, that coverage of all the money spent on Scn will not elicit much sympathy, since presumably it was done voluntarily.
  8. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor


    Agreed! I was just pushing back on the idea that former execs diminish the credibility of Leah's presentation.

    But, hell yeah, I agree with you that a public's tragic narrative of the cruel hoax can be just as compelling.
  9. lotus

    lotus autonomous rebellous

    Well said Hoaxyboy!

    Few years ago, the ''truth'' being said by those executives, was displayed on Mike and Marty's blog in order to address a larger audience in the indy field.

    So..what we had then..were the money scam and Ideal Morgue crush regging and fraud
    And then we had the abusive sec checking and lies about OTIX and OTX
    And the lies about the ideal morgue expansion
    and tons and tons of COB abuses toward execs, at int base.

    (Nobody of I know in the public was appalled by those stories) :confused2:

    It has slowly evolved, (within the ex and indie field) ..toward the direction of telling the whole truth...I think NOW people may tell the WHOLE TRUTH withouth being bullied, segregated, excluded, fair gamed, destroyed by former COS member , indies, friends of Ron the humanitarian...
    (or either demanded they only tell COB stuff and protect good humanitarian poor Uncle Ron who had fails at the end of his life..)????

    Till recently, it would be sacrilegious to tell truths that raised clouds over the great Humanitarian Uncle Ron and on his pseudo-mindfuck tech, that still provides a way of earning a living in the indie field...it was difficult to have the whole truth and that people speaking their mind would open up on how they have been raped..mentally, spiritually and for other physically...Since they have support now..noboby in the field will dare to silence them (by ostracization) and the WHOLE truth, will make it's way to the public.
    (who appears to find the truth appalling)

    Leah will show for real the true nature of the cult and how it rules people to live and to act upon it's policies, and the real dammages it does.....
    I am glad she did so..who else would have make it happened...????

    only a defiant, dauntless, resolute SO member! :happydance:

    Who would have the courage to open up ..the one who participated...and it must be very difficult to do!

    I wish Leah could make the chronic abuses on small kids known (begun by Uncle Ronnie)
    and the punishments in gulags (rpf)
    All the babies not borned and the SO girls devastated
    The introspection Rundown torture
    All the intelligence policies of LRH to rule this world and people

    And to reveal what a fair-game OSA pack is...either on a former $cientologist or a wog embarassement leader of opinion......

    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
  10. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    Outstanding post!

    I trust we may have seen the merciful end of the EOOO ("Era of Odious Odes") such as Rathbun's "ODE TO L. RON HUBBARD" in which he admonished people on this planet NOT TO "besmirch the good name of L. Ron Hubbard". Excuse me a moment--


    (sorry, I had to take a moment to
    "line charge", in order to handle the overload
    of preternaturally pompous pretentiousness
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  11. lotus

    lotus autonomous rebellous

    Your post is stunning...

    Yes the 3 rows of LOL are perfectly aligned!
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  12. Operating DB

    Operating DB Truman Show Dropout

    Well, technically it should be written as lollollollollol....ad infinitum. Otherwise lololol reads as LaughOutLaughOut or LaughOutLoudOutLoud or LaughOutLoudOutLaughOutLoud Or OutLoudOutLaughOutLoud. Or something along those lines. At any rate it comes across as catatonic which i think you may have meant it that way. After all, that's the biggest line charge I've seen since I learned about OTIII.

    I definitely have too much time on my hands today. It's been snowing outside like a fiend all day and I'm stuck indoors all day!

    HH, go to cramming!
  13. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    Someone told me that the part of episode 2 that really got to them was when Leah cried about Mike's daughter. That show of empathy and simple human kindness at the shocking things family does in the name of scientology is what so many people will resonate to, it doesn't matter who the subject is.
  14. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Yes, that's true ... I'll try again later today to view episode 2 (no luck so far).
  15. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    But where is the success story with zammm wow omygadd zow BaAM? Nonetheless after word clearing I am having the same WINdow of gain. Lolx999
  16. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    The illegal videos are here: http://armstrong-op.gerryarmstrong.ca/the-illegal-videos

    The document you link to is Question 10 of Scientology's submission to the IRS (November 23, 1992). Rathbun and Rinder probably helped to author it. The document shows how they used their illegal videos to help them get IRS tax exemption. (More documents related to Scientology and the IRS)

    Court transcripts of the illegal videos were made, as Scientology introduced and played the videos at the Christofferson trial.

    Regarding Gerry's truthfulness and your other questions, he'll answer as soon as possible. For now, please read this affidavit he wrote in November 1985 about the Loyalist Operation, which operation came to light in April 1985 at the Christofferson trial.

    As Gerry stated, the whole Loyalist Op was a setup, a frame job from the beginning, which is probably criminal and tortious. The video itself is illegal. Then Rinder, et al.'s use of the video ever since, accompanied with relentless, campaigned lying up to the tops of governments, and very importantly the IRS, is itself a crime. All of that could factor in to why Mike and Mark are not motivated to assist Gerry.

    See also Gerry's introduction to the Armstrong Operation.

    Documents relating to Mike Rinder and Mark Rathbun and other Operators.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
  17. Dave B.

    Dave B. Maximus Ultimus Mostimus

    Oh the webs we weave when we first seek to deceive.
  18. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    Gerry thought it was important to speak up about Communicator IC's post. I posted his complete answer here. I'll post an excerpt, but encourage everyone to read the whole blog:

  19. CommunicatorIC

    CommunicatorIC @IndieScieNews on Twitter

    I never suggested that Gerry should stop wanting Mike Rinder to "tell the truth." On the contrary, what I said was completely consistent with Gerry continuing to want Mike Rinder to "tell the truth." I said, "If Gerry didn't like that, I would completely understand."

    I simply explained why it was unlikely to happen, and why I would advise Mike not to disclose details that would put his family, wife and child at risk.

    I do not appreciate the implication that I am a psychopath ("psychopathic logic'), particularly based on a false and misleading premise.
  20. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    I agree with you. The truth Mike is discussing is the fair gaming / disconnection culture of Hubbard, Miscavage and OSA in general. He is not going into specific fair gaming operations he was involved in, nor should he. I don't feel Gerry is wrong in wanting an apology or a statement from Rinder that he was fair gamed, I just don't see it happening for two reasons - it won't make any difference in Gerry's quest to return to the USA, mainly because the Church will deny it, erasing any validity such a statement would have, and it is a legal quagmire fraught with issues and problems.

    My take on Gerry's statement is he misunderstood the posts herein:
    It's not that we don't want him to, for we all would want such a thing to happen, but we just don't see it as a likely occurrence given the circumstances, and the scorched earth litigious nature of the church.

    Personally I am satisfied with Mikes post of Dec 6 and feel it is sufficient: