More on Past Lives: Real or Imagined?

Discussion in 'Mike Rinders Blog' started by RSS Feed, Nov 18, 2017.

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  1. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    I am at a loss to be able to communicate it seems.

    I read article after article in which scientists are frustrated by other scientists rejecting their work out of hand. Not just in the paranormal, but other fields as well. Fields with reputable scientists with degrees and prestige who can not get any traction for their work because it does not conform to the accepted norm, no matter how illogical the accepted norm may be.

    They largely have the same complaint - that science is closed to other ideas. And you say - no Mimsey, science accepts other viewpoints. Why then are all these many reports to the contrary? Surely you have seen them? Or am I merely deluded?

    But, lets move on to re-incarnation.

    If you have some 2000 plus cases in which you have interviewed children about their previous life, and have gone and seen the graves, gone to the towns and had the child recognize people from his narrative, which in some cases the child has never visited in this life. At what point do these 2000 plus cases dissolve into mere belief? Are these cases, no matter how well researched, relegated to be mere belief, forever and ever more?

    What would be the bridge to make reincarnation a science? What would be the accepted standard? What would you accept as proof of it being real?

    Edit - I am not being accusatory your of being prejudiced against reincarnation BTW, just curious if you are open to proof or not and what would constitute said proof. No pressure.

    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  2. Helena Handbasket

    Helena Handbasket Gold Meritorious Patron

    The problem with "debunkings" is that if it is POSSIBLE that there is a "logical" explanation for the phenomenon then that MUST be what happened. The spiritual explanation could be true, too, but that's held to a much higher standard of proof.

  3. Teanntás

    Teanntás Silver Meritorious Patron

    A good example is how healings (whether from prayer or a sugar pill) were dismissed as the 'placebo effect' as if that explained anything. Now scientists are studying the placebo effect. That's science.
  4. Teanntás

    Teanntás Silver Meritorious Patron

    Related Phenomena

    Near-Death Experiences of Atheists

    Carl G. Jung's Near-Death Experience

    ".......In a hospital in Switzerland in 1944, the world-renowned psychiatrist Carl G. Jung, had a heart attack and then a near-death experience. His vivid encounter with the light, plus the intensely meaningful insights led Jung to conclude that his experience came from something real and eternal. Jung's experience is unique in that he saw the Earth from a vantage point of about a thousand miles above it. His incredibly accurate view of the Earth from outer space was described about two decades before astronauts in space first described it. Subsequently, as he reflected on life after death, Jung recalled the meditating Hindu from his near-death experience and read it as a parable of the archetypal Higher Self, the God-image within. Carl Jung, who founded analytical psychology, centered on the archetypes of the collective unconscious. The following is an excerpt from his autobiography entitled Memories, Dreams, Reflections describing his near-death experience......... "
  5. EZ Linus

    EZ Linus Patron with Honors

    Oh you know, I am having such a shitty day, I really don't care about this. Personally Mimsey, believe whatever you want. I am out. I am hoping I do not come back after death that can't come fast enough. I a hoping I will get some peace from
  6. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    God, I seem to have a penchant for pissing people off. I am sorry you hear you had a shitty day. I wasn't trying to convert you, I was merely curious. I am sorry you took my post the wrong way. I thought we were having a decent conversation.

    I am perfectly fine with people believing there is no such thing as spirits, thetans, past lives, reincarnation, OBEs NDEs and the like. I was curious why you have that viewpoint. For instance, HH told me ( I am paraphrasing here ) that he has researched the living hell out of it years ago and could find no creditable research, and has no plans whatsoever to look into it further unless someone can produce demonstratable phenomina on demand.

    Len had this to say: "I’ll tell you why. Because, as a former Scientologist I’ve had enough bullshit pseudo-science to last me a hundred lifetimes, and when you present someone asserting the nonsensical notion of science supporting reincarnation, the needle of my bullshit meter hit the pins.
    Look, I have no idea whether or not reincarnation exists, but I do know that anyone using “science” to support the claim that it exists is full of crap."

    Well, I apologize for upsetting you. I hope you feel better.


    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  7. EZ Linus

    EZ Linus Patron with Honors

    I am not "pissed off" I am depressed. It's different. But some people around here treat ex-Scientologists that are very sad like this like weaklings. This sort of berating in this thread just makes me want to give it to you. Mimsy. You are right because I don't care. I feel tired now. I don't care who finds scientific proof about what is real or proof about past lives, or proof that all the scientists are a big lie too. Why not? Why not just go through another mind-fuck dupe again? According to you, that's pretty much want you're saying I'm headed for. And shit, maybe you're right. I have no real proof of anything being real! I really do not. And when I get in a place like this, I just do not give a FUCK anymore. I just wish the suffering would end. Any time I think I have myself together, I just don't. Science it wrong. Hubbard is right again, unicorns are real and I am most certainly going to hell for being an evil SP.
  8. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Yes, I expect you are but I daresay we'll all be right there with you!

    How much does that thought cheer you up?

    Sorry, it was the best I could do at short notice ...

  9. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    You know, I was on OT 7, class 6 and on staff a couple times and was in scientology for over 40 years, gave over $120k the IAS and on top of that paid for my wife's bridge up to 7 in addition to mine, which is what, a quarter mil? Plus I have a kid in the sea org that has disconnected from her entire family. I don't think for a moment I deserve anybody's pity - and I have good reason to feel like crap since I have lost over 95% of my scientology friends and still owe a butt load of money for bridge and IAS crap that I mortgaged my house for, and pay for every damn month and will for years to come. I don't think anybody who has walked away from Scientology a weakling by any means, it takes guts to say goodbye to it all, to your friends, and in some cases family.

    I am sorry you feel as you do.

    I can only say, for me it has taken a couple years to come to the point that I feel I am no longer interested in believing in or perusing Scientology. If I were to offer anybody any advice on it would be this: Move on.

    I was interested in SiFi and to some extent spirituality and definitely science - especially astronomy and geology and egypt prior to spending all that time on the bridge. Now I have moved on from Scientology and enjoy studying all about science, the electric universe, the various solar minimums, the younger Dryas die-off, the megalithic cultures that preceded the inca and the egyptians, PSI stuff etc. Why should I continue to be depressed about it all? It does no good. I study those things because I think that's where the next frontiers are.

    The sea level rose some 300 - 600 feet in a couple years back 15k years ago in a fucking disaster that killed off the mammoths, and whatever civilization that was alive then. Some think the earth was struck by a massive asteroid. This is slowly starting to be more mainstream - look how long it took for them to accept the sphinx has water damage from that period. Sure, perhaps it is fringe science - but it is gaining momentum.

    Modern science invented this cockamamie Dark matter, Dark energy to solve the "missing " mass of the universe. Fringe Science called BullShit on this years ago. Only now it is being debunked after their spending /wasting billions in a fruitless search for any evidence of it - mainstream scientists are finding plenty of matter in the universe, they have created computer models that do not need the dark BS.

    I am sorry you feel as you do, however I seriously doubt any ex would ever put you down or seriously believe you were an SP - that crock of shit tech Hubbard dreamed up to create a us vs them mentality a-la 1984.

    I truly hope you de-depress - whatever it takes, and start feeling better soon.

    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  10. EZ Linus

    EZ Linus Patron with Honors

    I am just tired of railing against anyone. Anything, especially in a place I thought was a "support system." When you think you have one and you really do not, well, I'm sure most of us know exactly what that feels like. I have been through this time and time again in many different aspects of my life. I can not help but to feel like the jackass/sp/whatever. I am sick of finding out that I'm probably being duped yet again, and this time it's with science. Every time I feel "good" about where I stand, something comes along and shakes the foundation. I never had one to begin with, so it's not that hard.

    But this stuff, this forum is really the least of my problems right now. I thought getting this book out first would be so "important" and now I don't feel that way anymore. I no longer have any lose ends to tie. I'm really not sure what I want to do next in this life.
  11. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Finish your book now while you have the energy. The older you get, the longer things take.

    I guess I never thought of ESMB as a support group so much as a place like minded people posted their concerns, their stories and helped bring the truth of scientology out to be understood. Discussed different aspects of the tech, the lies and bitch about Marty, who's entheta stats are in the toilet, and needs to post something crazy to get us all worked up.

    I dunno. There are so many diverse personality's that post here, with different agendas, many who have been victimized by the church, some who have not, and some who are trolls or OSA socks, that it is kinda hard to depend on us for the support I am guessing you are seeking.

    Maybe you should seek a professional to help you get back on track. Chris Shelton had someone on his show who works with cult damaged people. Go to his you tube channel and you can find her and reach out to her. That maybe what you need.

    Best, Mimsey
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  12. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    In addition to what Mimsey has just said I would like to add that it's almost impossible to be truly supportive of someone on an internet forum unless perhaps there is a real life relationship already in place or a private relationship (via the net or phone) running at the same time ... a real understanding of each other and the situation they find themselves in.

    None of us are mind readers and it's so easy to say the wrong thing while trying to say just the right thing and only succeed in making things worse and further upsetting the person on the other end. I suspect many say nothing at all due to those factors but that does not mean a lot of us are not sitting here wanting to reach out and help when we feel someone is needing a bit of support, because I'm quite sure we are.

    Using the old "ack routine" (by using the 'thankyou/like' buttons) or actually responding to a post very carefully may seem to be a safe way to let someone know they have been heard until heads start getting ripped off by the recipient for daring to "use the tek" on them. I expect some clumsy assumption and unfunny humour gets used on internet forums at inappropriate moments quite often too, it's a tricky road to walk.

    At risk of annoying tiring you further (which I don't want to do) I suggest that you either give us some real information to respond to or choose someone you trust and reach out to them privately, or both.

    You can go right ahead and tell me to get twatted and mind my own business now if you like ... I'm one of the lucky ones around here ... nothing much reaches my inner core and truly hurts me these days as anyone who has been "disconnected" from by their children will understand but I'm still very capable of feeling for someone else, and I feel for you.
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  13. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    Good paraphrase!

    Add to that one other thing that I did not mention.

    If there are theoretically 1 TRILLION COSMIC TRUTHS ABOUT LIFE that a human being could possibly learn...the difference between the stupidest spirtually blind person that ever lived and the smartest spiritually enlightened person that ever lived is this:

    -- The stupidest person in history only knows 1 out one-trillion cosmic truths; and

    -- The smartest person in history knows 2 out of one-trillion cosmic truths.

    -- Cosmically speaking, they are both ridiculously blind, unknowledgeable, misguided and virtually comatose--despite the latter one (the spiritual genius and master) delivering his absurdly misinformed theories with the practiced artifice of "certainty" in both tone and manner.

    Enlightened beings who "know truth" is one of the greatest myths and hoaxes that ever existed on earth. It is quite likely the oldest con game ever invented.

    Quite unfortunately, there nobody in the history of the world who ever discovered or even stumbled upon the cosmic truths behind life. And if anyone ever did discover something, they went to extraordinary measures to cover it up so that nobody else could ever learn of it. How else could such a powerful illumination not become rapidly known and used by all 7.4 billion inhabitants?

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  14. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    With so much to interest and concern ourselves with in the here and now I often wonder why certain people spend so much time wittering on and on about the would/could and should be's of past (and presumably future) lives.

    Perhaps it's because they are abnormally frightened of the unknown and the complete lack of control which (despite all the science, pseudoscience blathering and sales spiel) we all continue to share.

    Only one thing is certain, one day we will all find out what happens next or ... we won't ... and I find that as annoying as anyone else!

  15. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Oh gosh - I am mainly just curious who I was in the past - there's no desire to look for lost treasure I buried ages past like some silly cult leader. Just idle curiosity. I am more interested in knowing a bit more about previous civilizations prior to the Egyptians etc. - the alleged "megalithic" societies /civilizations and what life was like for them than my personal history, which I doubt is any more interesting than my current life.

    As to the future - I can only hope for the best. Some of the crap I have read or watched about the grand solar minimums, massive CMEs on the level of the Carrington event, the possibility of mega quake in New Madrid, LA, Frisco or the pacific northwest or increased volcanism in the pacific northwest or Yellowstone or the Philippines, is truly scary so I try not to dwell on it. Que cera cera.

    The book that Phenomena recommended "One Second After" isn't exactly paining a rosy picture if a terrorist launched a rocket and set off a nuke over the US and the resultant EMP blew out the grid and destroyed virtually all electronic devices. Our country would fall into chaos and anarchy and starvation. It would be much the same scenario if there were a "kill shot" CME released from the sun at earth. Brrr.
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
  16. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

  17. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Something that is not talked about much is the overt threat on mainstream religion that is posed by reincarnation. While God is safe - in that he created it all, the concepts of heaven and hell are on the chopping block. If there is no heaven to go to, with or without the 70 virgins, and rivers of milk and honey, nor hell, those concepts of divine reward or punishment evaporate. Moses's tablets get put aside. And the threat of no morality looms.

    And Karma - in the Scientific American article - Karma is not a factor either. You just die and get another body and life continues. No retribution for sins committed.

    But the curious part - rebirth is not immediate, but occurs several years later. I am reminded of Paul's ( dulloldfart) thread on life between lives, in which via hypnotic regression, people are taken to that area and therein plan out their next life. You see a similar thread with the NDE people - a plane of existence where all knowledge is known, but the person is told it is not their time and to go back.

    So! Heaven - or a version of it survives. Or does it? In Robert Monroe's view and based on his OOB voyages, he finds this planet is a sort of school, where you go to classes during sleep, where afterlife there are plains of reality that the spirits find themselves involved in perhaps for eternity, while others are reborn, but in a curious fashion - as sort of a spiritual clone. One that is a distinct separate personality from his previous lives, but can draw upon their knowledge, though they are much like clothes hanging on a pole in the your closet, un-inhabited or in suspended animation.

    Who knows, but getting back to mainstream religion, I wounder how much of it resents what reincarnation represents - and rails against it in the form of all these "I don't believe it" " you are all charlatins" " science can't prove reincarnation" etc. Is it fighting a loosing battle and swinging wildly against the deathless demons reincarnation represents?

  18. Teanntás

    Teanntás Silver Meritorious Patron

    'While God is safe - in that he created it all, the concepts of heaven and hell are on the chopping block. If there is no heaven to go to, with or without the 70 virgins, and rivers of milk and honey, nor hell, those concepts of divine reward or punishment evaporate'

    Thank God for that :D

    The Jews of Jesus' day expected Elijah to come before the Messiah; indeed, some present day Jews continue to await Elijah's coming as well, as in the Cup of Elijah the Prophet in the Passover Seder. This is why the disciples ask Jesus in Matthew 17:10, 'Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?' The disciples are then told by Jesus that Elijah came in the person of John the Baptist,
    "Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist". — Matthew 17:11–13
  19. strativarius

    strativarius Comfortably Numb

    Well, whether right or wrong I have an opinion on all this, and I think that at some time in the not too distant future (if the human race survives at all (which is seriously in doubt IMO)), we will look upon our belief in god, karma, past lives and all the rest of that rubbish the way we now see the Aztecs belief in a sun god. Think about how many still-beating hearts were ripped out to appease that non-existent entity.
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
  20. EZ Linus

    EZ Linus Patron with Honors

    For those of you that feel I should see a professional for my depression, I thought it was pretty clear that I do. I've mentioned it before, but didn't want to ruffle any more feathers by mentioning it again since a lot of people here are still anti-psych.

    In any case, this thread has triggered something else that has been underlying (obviously). Those that had good intentions to help, I feel it and I truly appreciate it with my whole heart.

    Maybe this is not a good place for support. You are right about that Mimsey. But, IMO, it's also not a safe place to talk about ones feelings or views once they have left Scientology, or their thoughts during their process of leaving, or the views of those who want to lend a hand to someone who is asking for help (people interested in leaving. This place weighs too heavily on individuals with views that often leave me feeling sad, unsupported, scared, silenced, and angry. It's not just this thread.

    And because of the fragile state I've been in, it was just not a good idea for me to be on this forum at all (I should know better. One has to come in here with armor), and especially now: I hadn't yet heard back from the producers of Leah's show (I have since now) but by Wednesday, I was beginning to think I was a nutcase they were ignoring or something. They knew all kinds of sensitive information about me and I began to flip out, like I was never going to hear from them again. I saw people from the show and crew on Thanks giving and no one peeped a word about nothing and I was thoroughly floored. Friday I just wanted to die. They called yesterday. (I had other reasons I was down than just the phone call--general fucked up life that's not improving by much), and that was what ya'll were seeing a bit off. Sorry, but these things happen. I can promise it wouln't happen again, but I can't make that promise, but I can hang out here less or not at all.

    Life is a funny thing. (Hilarious.) Even if I publish my stupid book before I go, it's really nothing of a mark in the scheme of things. Even helping someone out of Scientology (book or no book)...I'd be helping them out of the cult, and into what? What is waiting here for them that is so great any way?

    Something to think about.

    If the book is published, I'll be sure to drop a note.
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