Discussion in 'Cults in General' started by beeeaaach, Oct 13, 2016.

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  1. beeeaaach

    beeeaaach image of time

    so I was curious , what do y'all think of mormons ?

    I know that it got out of hand in some places and there was a book not too long ago similar to those written about scientology so I am leery also because the mormons as a part of their religion are supposed to give ten percent of their income to their church ...

    Here is the book

    and here is an excerpt from one of my favorite web series :D !

    Anyway the reason I ask is because
    I was approached today by two missionaries (young mid 20's gals) and they wanted to speak to me or anyone really about the lord jesus christ . I want to speak to them too since I don't have many peers..

    but maybe ...
  2. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    If I may borrow from another, rather better, science fiction author than our "favorite" one, I see Mormonism as one of the failed Kwisatz Haderachs of religion.

    All religions start as cults. If their founders leave enough flexibility (or, as in the case of Christianity, if their founders don't actually found the religion, but plural disciples do) the doctrines can evolve and grow, cast off the stuff that doesn't work, and become a lasting religion. In the Dune books, the Kwisatz Haderach was a super being, but there were many in the genetic experiments who failed completely (like most cults that don't outlast their founder's death) and a few who got some super abilities, but not all of them (like Paul Atreides's nemeses in the Harkonnen family).

    Mormonism has been able to cast off and ignore some of the cult shit it started with (note that many Mormons don't even realize that polygamy WAS practiced by Brigham Young), but not others (holy underwear, anyone?). It's seen as a near-cult, but it has achieved generational momentum. So it's kind of like the Harkonnen also-ran in the Kwisatz Haderach experiment, whereas true religions like Christianity and Islam that outgrew their founders' limitations are more like Paul Atreides.
  3. Hypatia

    Hypatia Pagan

    A lot of Christians tithe.

    I think the real problems are their tolerance of rape culture and their intolerance.
  4. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron


    I agree.:yes:

    IMHO, the post apocalyptic novel A Canticle for Leibowitz (Walter M. Miller, Jr., 1960) is the finest SF exploration of this theme ever written.:coolwink: El Ron was enamored with the fact that Hisself published millions upon millions of words. However, according to those words, there is NO flexibility and plurality is a "High Crime" against Scn and Source and is "SP".:whistling:

    El Ron's Scn "Scriptures" are rife with "hidden personal influences"--from Hisself's fictional SF "Post Apocalypse" story--as imminent harbingers of the perforce inevitable "cyclical 'Apocalypse'" to come that only Scn and Sncs can prevent or survive...if they fork over the dough, commit the time and are "In Ethics" enough to "confront" the "truth" and, thereby, achieve true "OT".:ohmy:

    Face :)
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  5. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Dear b, welcome to ESMB. I have been reading your posts and I am impressed. You've managed to keep your head screwed on right despite all the Scientology insanity and influence in your life. :thumbsup:

    I am guessing that you are somewhere between your late teens and young adulthood. So its no surprise that you are seeking a better understanding of your experience with the Mormans and what Mormonism might offer you. You reminded me of myself after I left Scientology and started wondering about this Jesus guy. One day I happened to visit a nearby thrift store and browse the books section. I noticed a shelf full of bibles. I was curious and stated looking them over, noticing that a number of them seemed different. I decided to get a traditional looking bible and then a number of the other different looking ones so I could delve into the whole topic of Christianity. I was raised a Catholic but never understood the Jesus thing. I hoped by reading these, I could get a better understanding.

    One of the books was a Mormon bible. I didn't know this as I started reading it but then saw the official name of the church and googled it. I was surprised because I had no idea it was a christian based religion. I have one cousin who is a Mormon. He has something like 12 kids. We are not close but there was deep affection there from when we were younger. I decided to read it to understand him because it was always my understanding that the Mormon religion was a cult.

    I realized part way through, after skimming it and comparing it to other bibles, that there was nothing weird in their bible and it was not much different than the other bibles I was looking at. Then I found out they have a separate book they follow, The Book of Mormon. I found a copy of that and put it down shortly after starting. It was too much for me; I knew Scientology was a cult by this point and I was trying to unravel the mindset that came with years of having been a devoted member. I wanted nothing to do with outrageous claims... specially after leaving Scientology, reading others experiences and and finding out on the internet what Scientology really.

    I eventually continued reading the Christian bibles, and gained a better understanding of who Jesus was and why he is beloved by millions... but I knew I needed to understand other religious view points before I could settle into something a belief of a higher power. I'm glad I did and my advice to you is to red up on all the religions. They have these books that I got my kids, called Christianity for Dummies, Judaism for Dummies, Mormonism for Dummies, etc. They are excellent, easy to read books that answer the most basic questions to help readers form an idea of what the beliefs and views are of each. As well, often there will be information on conflicting idea and beliefs within subgroups of the religion, so you can understand the different groups and why they are that way, some focusing on parts of the religion others find to be less important etc. But the best part if the explanations of the actual beliefs. Very objective viewpoints just explaining things so that anyone can understand. I needed that to help answer my kids questions and wish I'd read these things instead of trying to decipher simple answers from bibles.

    The bibles were helpful but later a bible became something I really enjoy reading. But That was a long way coming because I needed to understand things before I believed. My experiences with Scientology made me very cautious. I'm glad I took the time to get a basic grasp of the different religions and their beliefs. I don't think I would have joined Scientology had I known it what I learned after I left.

    You have your whole life ahead of you, so don't settle into anything with a commitment. Explore different beliefs, different philosophies of life, and plan to live life on your own terms, not others. People like to share their faiths systems or ideas. That is natural. And your curiosity is also natural. I suggest you read and observe and perhaps visit different churches or faith groups or whatever but don't feel you have to commit to anything. Trust your heart and mind and instincts.

    I am not sure if you know this but if you look s=down the bottom of the page you are reading , you will see a list of similar threads linked by title and date. Here is a copy of what I saw on this thread you started. Check them out :)

    Whatever you do, know that you can and will create your own future... so plan it with lists of things you would like to know, places you would like to see, and things you would like to have someday. Perhaps just keep a journal of these, adding to it as your thoughts and ideas change. Your parents were sidelined off their own paths right into Scientology. You are moving yourself out of Scientology. Try not to worry about your parents. Just have faith that they will come to their senses someday. You can't fix them but you can create a better life for YOU. You've already started by reaching out to us here. I wish you the best!! ((HUGGS))

    ~ Mary McConnell

    PS: Do visit exscientologykids forum - see link in my signature.
  6. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    A while ago I was curious about the Mormons so I bought a book: "No Man Knows My History" by Fawn M. Brodie. This details the life of Joseph Smith and how he started the religion.

    After reading that I came to the conclusion that Smith was very similar to Hubbard - an outrageous liar and fantasist who managed to lie often enough to convince people to follow him.

    I also read "The Witness Wore Red" by Rebecca Musser which details the events leading up to the jailing for life of the Fundamentalist Mormon leader Warren Jeffs. He was just following Joseph Smith's instructions but the law caught up with him. Presumably the non-fundamentalist Mormons have stayed out of jail by changing Joseph Smith's writings sufficiently.

    Anyway, in my opinion it's just another cult.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  7. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    I've recently spent some 20 hrs over the last few months talking to a couple of young Mormon missionaries who came to my door.

    My conclusion is that it is cult-Y in some ways, but IMO, FLDS is far worse and so are the Jehovah's Witnesses. Joseph Smith was a liar and conartist very like Hubbard, but the Mormon Church has changed in response to public opinions and laws, something Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses have never done. They read both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, not relying strictly on interpretations by Smith.

    The Mormon Church is often confused with FLDS and unfairly blamed for things FLDS does.

    My little Mormon missionaries stopped seeing me after I made the point that the world has already been peopled for a long time and that so many people are very hard on our natural resources and those resources are suffering. They did not deny this, though, which says a lot. They were headed for college after their missionary work, as well as marriage. It is so hard for them to leave with all their business, family and other connections that I did not push that subject. Instead, I pushed the points of the fallibility of man and we discussed how Moses, after 40 years of keeping his people alive in the desert, was barred by God from the Promised Land and why this happened and why Aaron took over instead. We discussed the fallibility of other Old Testament prophets as well. I wanted them to be wary of this and see for themselves that even if someone starts out bad and turns good or starts out good, they can turn bad. Everyone.

    They agreed.

    I brought up the point that one's relationship with God is highly personal and that no man can tell you what God's plan for your life would be. We discussed examples. They also agreed. Then I brought up that it is not up to Man to say where God will appear and how and tell God what to do. My example was innocent enough and easy for them to agree, but it brought something else to their minds which they did not discuss with me. I think it hit some chord with them and caused some cognitive dissonance, but I don't know enough about their religion to know what I hit. I brought up that the Jehovah's Witnesses have Biblical references that show that 'Speaking in tongues' can also come from the devil or other evil spirit so may not be as dependable as they think. This also made them look at things a bit differently.

    In general, I think I had some degree of success with them. They will be wary of supposedly good men or men who start out good leading their church who order illegal, abusive or other abusive things. They see that there are good people in the world who are not Mormons, too, and I put some seeds of doubts there about things they took for granted as absolute truths and helped them to see things differently.

    I think everyone here should talk to missionaries who come to their door and help them see things in a non-aggressive way.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  8. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Huh? I thought they were one and the same. Google doesn't seem to know the difference, as far as I can see. Please explain!

  9. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Sorry. :blush: Thanks for catching that. FLDS is what I meant as the one that has not changed that the other Mormon church is blamed for their actions, including a recent news article about child abuse. It turned out to be FLDS.

    The Missionaries actually discussed it with their manager/leader. I will edit.

    From Wikipedia:

    After the Manifesto, some Mormons continued to enter into polygamous marriages, but these eventually stopped in 1904 when church president Joseph F. Smithdisavowed polygamy before Congress and issued a "Second Manifesto", calling for all plural marriages in the church to cease and establishedexcommunication as the consequence for those who disobeyed. Several small "fundamentalist" groups, seeking to continue the practice, split from the LDS Church, including the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB) and the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS Church). Meanwhile, the LDS Church continues its policy of excommunicating members found practicing polygamy, and today actively seeks to distance itself from fundamentalist groups that continue the practice.[7] On its web site, the church states that "the standard doctrine of the church is monogamy" and that polygamy was a temporary exception to the rule.


    For public relations reasons, the LDS Church has sought vigorously to disassociate itself from Mormon fundamentalists and the practice of plural marriage.[53] Although the LDS Church has requested that journalists not refer to Mormon fundamentalists using the term "Mormon",[54] journalists generally have not complied, and "Mormon fundamentalist" has become standard terminology. Mormon fundamentalists themselves embrace the term "Mormon" and share a religious heritage and beliefs with the LDS Church, including canonization of the Book of Mormon and a claim that Joseph Smith is the founder of their religion.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  10. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    All else aside, you'd be hard put to find the few Christian churches in the southern states of the USA that don't demand 10% of parishioners' income as 'tithing.' It is not uniquely Mormon and it's disgusting.

    What I have to say about it is 10% of my income to pay for a one-hour seminar once a week is ridiculously high and overpriced. :eyeroll: I can't believe people do this, but plenty do. It's ridiculous.
  11. beeeaaach

    beeeaaach image of time

    I see, well the only part of it which draws my attention is the social aspect of maybe having a '3rd dynamic' or something like that because I am starved for attention and am very attracted to giyls but when it comes to the theology of it all i would just go with the meme below

    and thank you all , I appreciate your advice,
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  12. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    Fuck me, I remember a preacher from my youth who used to quote Malachi 3:10

    Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

    Every. Fucking. Sunday.

    He was a conman. The people in our church were not well off enough to provide the salary he wanted, and he was sleeping with 2 women in the congregation. It was ugly.

    The word "tithe" has made my teeth itch ever since.
  13. myrklix

    myrklix Patron with Honors

    My own personal experience with Mormons has been benign. Here, in fairly liberal Massachusetts (USA), there aren't many though we did have have a Republican governor (Mitt Romney) -- and presidential candidate -- who is Mormon.

    My son has had a classmate and friend who is from a Mormon family from Utah (the dad is here for several years for medical school & residency) and they have had many playdates playing video games or Nerf battles. We've gone to the kid's birthday parties with other classmates. The family is incredibly nice and have never, ever proselytized. They have their friends circles at their local LDS church so we don't really socialize outside of school- or kid-related activities. However, they have never imposed their beliefs in the 5+ years we have known them.

    I'm not saying there's nothing odd (from an outsider's view point) about Mormonism. In fact I went to see The Book of Mormon musical and thought it was hilarious -- but ultimately pokes fun at ALL religion. Sure, there might be cult-like aspects to LDS. It's just that I think it pales completely as compared with CoS. Just my 2-cents.
  14. skep

    skep Patron with Honors

    Most Mormon's I have met and known are upstanding, family orientated, strong work ethic people. I have seen first hand what they do and actually walk their talk.

    My ex's cousin married a Mormon and converted. When his son turned 18, they drove to Salt Lake City to register for his missionary work. On the drive back, their motorhome went over a cliff, into a river, and the wife, the 18 y.o. son, and a daughter drowned in the river.

    When he got back home, the Mormon community made sure (he was a shift worker) that there was always someone home for the younger 2 daughters after school, in the morning, over night if needed, and that all meals, house cleaning etc was done. It was amazing to see, as one hears about that kind of thing happening in the old 1800 prairie west, but not in today's world.

    I gained a whole bunch of respect for that group. Members I met since have shown the same adherence to living what they preach. I think their religious beliefs are wacko as all get out, but I do respect them as a group.
  15. Little David

    Little David Silver Meritorious Patron

    ‘I am X’: Mormon Church Faces Growing Sex Abuse Scandal, Pt. 1

    Suzette Brewer


    From 1947 until 2000, the Mormon Church owned a non-profit corporation known as LDS Social Services, which operated the “Indian Placement Program,” or “Lamanite Placement Program.” The LPP was designed to target and recruit thousands of Indian children from reservations and Indian communities across the country, convert them to Mormonism, and send them to Utah to live with white Mormon families. It is estimated that approximately 50,000 Indian children went through the program.

    Defined as an “educational opportunity,” as opposed to foster care, the objective of the LPP was the assimilation and “whitening” of Indian children as a divine imperative outlined in the Book of Mormon, which teaches that there are two distinct phenotypes of Indian people: Nephites, light-skinned, “righteous and civilized people;” and Lamanites, “idle, savage and bloodthirsty,” for which they were “cursed by God” with dark skin.

    It was believed that by educating and assimilating Indian children into Mormon culture and religion that they could be “lightened,” thereby breaking their Lamanite (or dark-skinned) “curse” and restoring the prophecy of their redemption. In 2013, the Mormon Church officially renounced the doctrine.

    Read more athttp://indiancountrytodaymedianetwo...rowing-sex-abuse-scandal-pt-1-166143?page=0,1
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
  16. gloriana

    gloriana Patron

    They call themselves elders because that's the level of their special priesthood powers - various degrees authorize the holder to heal, protect, bless the sacraments, dedicate buildings and graves, drive away evil, curse, prophesy the future, etc. Every man with this has the ability to communicate straight with God and potentially give Him directions - and their prayer often sounds like that's exactly what they're doing. Men only, of course - profound sexism is baked into their beliefs.

    Exmo of many years here - you definitely did, and probably triggered their cogdis on a current issue too. They don't have to have gay friends, or be gay themselves, to be torn by the most recent example of the so-called church's fallibility of revelation. People are leaving over this in droves, entire families at once, so many that the authorities are giving public talks like this. (LDS source)

    There are many, many more problems on top of that, though. The process of mission prep does it for plenty of kids - they get taught how they're supposed to defend against contradictions and issues in their beliefs and history that they've never even heard of before. That, plus getting outside of their Mormon bubble, seeing that 'gentiles' are people too, and meeting people like you who are kind but make points they aren't trained to refute starts more of them questioning than the senile old men and their enablers who run the whole thing will ever admit. They catch a phenomenal amount of shit out there, too, and that makes them question giving up two years of their lives for it. They are only allowed to call home twice a year in most areas, and other communications are severely restricted. They don't even get to go home for the funeral if a parent or sibling dies!

    I left at 18 in January, 1978 just a few months before that decade's old farts had a conveniently timed 'revelation' that God had changed his mind and black members could now be 'given' the priesthood. Cited that in my excommunication hearing - at the time, you couldn't just resign and leave. Someone had to sue to get them to change that!


    This is actually backwards - not surprising, as faithful Mormons patrol Wikipedia the way Scientology used to be able to do. This lands squarely under what Mormon culture calls 'lying for the Lord.'

    Expressed in Mormonese, plural marriage has only been suspended in the present dispensation and will be practiced again on earth when God gives the appropriate revelation (presumably when the theocracy Brigham Young went west to build is established.) And it most definitely continues to this day to be absolutely OK in heaven, and practiced in the temples. Temple marriage, or celestial marriage for time and all eternity, is an absolute requirement to reach the highest degree of glory in the LDS plan of salvation; in the current dispensation, widowed men can be (and are, quite commonly) sealed in the temple for time and all eternity to additional wives. Widowed women, however, can only be sealed to one husband, to whom they will belong (yep, like property, bearing children eternally) in the celestial kingdom. Another reason I got out!
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  17. beeeaaach

    beeeaaach image of time

    So I met with them (my neighborhood mormons) many times now (>8), they are sisters not elders which I thought may be better because less testosterone works in my favor after all I just wanted some kind of human contact and I'm not really interested in their beliefs ... as far as I am concerned the main purpose and value of any religion is to bring ppl together under some kind of fairy tale.

    The life of christ the way the mormons depicted it which may be so in all denominations of christiany was fairly brutal during his atonement and this is what seemed to be accented here. I had no idea he bled from every pore and I had no idea anyone would celebrate such a thing ... I guess some of these people think it's a blessing and for that I think they are sadistic for lack of a better word.

    In conversation after meeting they often went off the deep end rather quickly .. like .. hardly any small talk and just right away into matters of faith .. and asked me awkward questions about "would I like to have a close relationship with god" among others .... which was okay sometimes other than being really vague and difficult to answer... I wish they could see I didn't feel comfortable speaking of such things off the cuff to total strangers but whatever

    this last time we got together there was a new girl again asking annoying questions which I again had trouble answering and she probably was unaware that I had been interrogated this way before and it made me sad. It did feel like a sort of interrogation and I didn't know what I was expected to answer. In fact it seemed a lot like a sea organisation recruitment cycle .. and it seems they have an agenda to baptize me and make me a pious parishioner which also makes me sad.

    I can say that I enjoyed attending their sunday service because different people stand up to speak each week unlike other churches where the sermon is always by one preacher or another.

    so I drew a line and said we better go on hiatus.. If I wanted to be asked the same dull silly boring or retarded questions over and over I would go and pay for auditing thank you very much ..

    After years of solitude I have become afraid of the rabbit hole of faith because I don't always know where it may take me and whether I am capable of playing that game... I really didn't know what I might be agreeing to ... It could be totally benign... who knows... I am skeptical of religions as corporations because it is wrong according to my expertise in a previous life and in scientology ...

    Meeting with these mormons was anticlimatic in the sense that they spoke mostly about the holy trinity and prayer; which is the norm for any christianity in genereal whereas I had sort of expected more on Joseph Smith and his expeditions...

    they think they are special among christians because they have "the tek" as david miscavidge would say.... in other words the completion of the gospel which was allowed by the angel moroni coming down from heaven whilst joseph smith prayed somewhere in the woods in upstate new york to tell him of where to find secret treasure hidden in the ground which contained some special reading glasses which by divine right allowed him to decipher some kind of egyptian hyrogliphs chiseled on gold tablets

    They do have a quite an attachment to the book of mormon, not the play ... which is their bible which is additional stories for the old and new testament ... which all happened long ago in a country far away.

    One thing that strikes me is that they (the LDS) have a lot of money and so much so that they make their own short films on jesus which may not be saying much since anyone can get good video camera for a few hundred dollars and film stuff but these seem pro shot in various locations with perhaps camera cranes and stuff...
    And they do have quite a few nice buildings

    blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.... etcetera
    who cares
    I'm too old for this crap
    I guess I just have a hard time saying no where my honor and dignity are involved
    fuqqq it ...
    watch this video
  18. cleared cannibal

    cleared cannibal Silver Meritorious Patron

    Interesting that you brought up the idea of "the tech". All religions think they do. Scn is not unique in this or the Mormons. I find organized religion in general tries to make you take up ideas you don't necessarily believe.

    It is a turn off to me that most all religions think anyone who doesn't accept their doctrine to the letter is lost and can never attained the desire goal. To me there is more than one road to heaven and it is a very individual thing.

    Religions in general rely on a person's want and need to be liked and accepted. Scn is like this with the love bombing but they can turn much like Islam if this doesn't work. Fundamentalist Christian religions are really more harsh than Scn in this regard in that they just start with making one afraid of fire and brimstone and don't even try the love bombing route. And then there is Islam who just kills you if you don't accept it.
  19. Little David

    Little David Silver Meritorious Patron

    Mormon MRIs suggest religion acts a drug


    Since the study results were seen only in Mormons, Anderson said, more research is needed to determine whether similar findings could be replicated in people of other faiths, such as Catholics or Muslims.

    “I think that it’s still an open question, to what extent there is a common network of brain regions that is active across faith traditions and types of experiences. We expect that there are differences,” he said. “In other words, does it feel the same way in the same regions of the brain for a Lutheran woman in Minnesota studying the Bible as for someone in Syria contemplating religiously motivated violence?”

    More research is also needed to determine the potential health benefits of such experiences, Anderson said.

    The scientific literature on health-related effects of spiritual experiences is growing, said Newberg, who wrote the book “How God Changes Your Brain.”

    “Generally, religious and spiritual beliefs and practices reduce depression, stress and anxiety and provide people a sense of meaning and purpose,” he said.

    “Additionally, it is also important to understand the potential negative consequences,” he said. “For example, would this study yield similar or different results if the subjects were members of ISIS and provided religious quotes and videos supporting those beliefs? That could be a fascinating study.”

  20. Knows

    Knows Gold Meritorious Patron

    I think Mormon's are bat shit crazy with the special undies and Jospeh's story about the tablets...

    But - I don't think they bankrupt and destroy people quite like "Scientology - the beautiful religion" according to Tom Cruise