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Enthetan

Master of Disaster
OK so what is all your Islam bashing actually about Enthetan?

If you understand that Muslims are humans why the demonisation?

Muslim is a wonderful generalisation. It only works when you don't actually know anyone who is a Muslim. my friend the Pakistani drag queen would go to the police if he saw violations of human rights, as would most Muslims I know. it's no easier being a Muslim Drag Queen than a scientologist one. Coming out to Muslim parents is more difficult than to atheist parents, and coming out to scientologist parents would be hell, I'll grant you that, but gay Muslims are coming out of the closet. Enthetan I do live in the real world not in a library.

You are obsessed with ideology, Islam = Communism = Nazism. A does not equal A.

So what are you trying to prove, that Somalia is about take over the West? In the name of Christianity most countries in Africa have made homosexuality illegal and several are trying to bring in the death sentence, right now the police of several African countries do not investigate the deaths of know gay people. Is that ideology or religion? It's certainly not very fluffy.

The 7/11/2005 bombings were done by wonderful people. As were the doctors who took part in the 2007 Glasgow Airport attack.

The rape gangs are all composed of wonderful men
[video=youtube;RZCQ9ZWfCuQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZCQ9ZWfCuQ[/video]

As were the wonderful gentlemen who hacked British soldier Lee Rigby to death on a London street in protest against how Muslims are treated around the world.

602962-woolwich-machete-hacking-attack-against-soldier-lee-rigby.gif


All sweet, wonderful men, who will make the UK a better and kinder place.

islam-demonstration.jpg
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
TGI is right, let's get back to the thread, there is a world of difference between Islam and NOI, it's like comparing the CoS with the Catholic Church, they both have a word in common, that's about all. East African slave traders are not NOI, and they have not been enslaving men for a thousand years. Arab slave traders have been operating in Sub-Saharan Africa for a very long time it's true just as North African slave traders once used to operate in Ireland and the UK. This thread is about the Nation of Islam which is not Islam any more than CoS is a church.

Cool. We can bring the topic back to Nation of Islam.

We can talk about the Death Angels
mappzebra1_000.jpg


We can talk about famous Nation of Islam members like John Allen Muhammad, the DC sniper.

We can spend lots and LOTS of time talking about NoI doctrine, like Yakub, the black scientist who created the white race as the source of all evil in the world.

We'll have LOADS of fun :eyeroll:
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
The 7/11/2005 bombings were done by wonderful people. As were the doctors who took part in the 2007 Glasgow Airport attack.

The rape gangs are all composed of wonderful men
[video=youtube;RZCQ9ZWfCuQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZCQ9ZWfCuQ[/video]

As were the wonderful gentlemen who hacked British soldier Lee Rigby to death on a London street in protest against how Muslims are treated around the world.

602962-woolwich-machete-hacking-attack-against-soldier-lee-rigby.gif


All sweet, wonderful men, who will make the UK a better and kinder place.

islam-demonstration.jpg

Yes some Muslims are evil people, so are some Christians Jews and Exscientologists, I'm still not scared of my neighbours.

We are at war. During the second world war we didn't have millions of Germans living here. If we had there would have been far more deaths.

Now you are blaming Muslims though you said you were only talking about Islam. Find me a hadith that says it's OK to gang rape.

We have thousands of Muslim doctors in the UK, who regularly save the lives of unbelievers, apostates and Jews.

Individual members of a religion who commit crimes or atrocities are individuals, not ambassadors for their religion.

It is forbidden to interpret Islam. For that reason for many years translating the scriptures was forbidden. Much like Latin was in the Catholic church very few people actually understand the obscure dialect of Arabic that was spoken in Hijaz 1500 years ago. Therefore most Muslims even living in Saudi don't have a clue what is written, even if they have memorised vast passages from it. This means that they believe the interpretations given them by their 'priests'. Where the priests are hate mongers then hatred is spread, just as you are attempting to do. When such Mullah's are discovered they can be stopped.

To mainstream Muslims NOI is an interpretation of Islam mixed with something else, and so not really valid.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Cool. We can bring the topic back to Nation of Islam.

We can talk about the Death Angels
mappzebra1_000.jpg


We can talk about famous Nation of Islam members like John Allen Muhammad, the DC sniper.

We can spend lots and LOTS of time talking about NoI doctrine, like Yakub, the black scientist who created the white race as the source of all evil in the world.

We'll have LOADS of fun :eyeroll:

You can talk about it, it would be relevant to the thread. Or would it? What is this thread about?
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Now you are blaming Muslims though you said you were only talking about Islam. Find me a hadith that says it's OK to gang rape.

I am still talking about Islam, and those Muslims who apply Islamic teachings (as distinct from those who are just ethnically Muslim).

A devout Muslim must consider himself to be at war with those who refuse to accept Islam:

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day ... until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low
Surah IX:29

The above passage (among many others) would justify acts of violence, robbery, and rape against infidels who do not accept Islam, as being in accordance with the state of war.

There are a number of Quranic passages and hadiths which explicitly allow using captured women as sex slaves. For example:


If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess.
Qur'an 4:3

In summary, there are Muslims who may consider themselves fighters operating behind enemy lines, and find plenty of passages to justify that viewpoint. Once you consider yourself a fighter in battle, then anything can be justified, so long as it does not unduly endanger fellow Muslims.

I need to go do stuff now, but will revisit this in more detail later, along with the other things you said. Regarding NoI and mainstream Islam: yes, regular Muslims DO NOT consider NoI as being Islamic.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
I'm still not scared of my neighbours.

You are probably safe from your neighbors, who by your accounts appear to be not-serious Muslims who are making an effort to integrate themselves into the British community. Do not assume that they are a representative sample of the Muslim world.

Individual members of a religion who commit crimes or atrocities are individuals, not ambassadors for their religion.
"Individual members of a religion who commit crimes or atrocities are individuals" -- unless they are Christians.

It is forbidden to interpret Islam. For that reason for many years translating the scriptures was forbidden. Much like Latin was in the Catholic church very few people actually understand the obscure dialect of Arabic that was spoken in Hijaz 1500 years ago.

The purpose of Latin was more to unify the priesthood, so that a priest from Ireland could communicate with Rome, or a visiting priest from Spain, and be understood. Latin was the language of Rome, and at the founding of the Church was spoken (at least as a second language) all over the Roman Empire. Much like the role English plays in today's world.

A more important reason for wanting people to read the Quran in the original is that the Quran is a lyrical work for a pre-literate age, like the Iliad or Beowulf . It is not intended to be read as a translation. It is intended to be SUNG

[video=youtube;qcqFWr6h4qc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcqFWr6h4qc[/video]

Take a song that you find particularly moving, translate the lyrics into Bulgarian, and dryly recite them to passers by in Bulgaria. They will not find the passage particularly moving in translation.



Therefore most Muslims even living in Saudi don't have a clue what is written, even if they have memorised vast passages from it. This means that they believe the interpretations given them by their 'priests'. Where the priests are hate mongers then hatred is spread, just as you are attempting to do. When such Mullah's are discovered they can be stopped.

One problem with that. Today, the Quran IS translated, and many translations are available online, and the "hate and war" passages are in there. An Islamic cleric would not be able to get away with preaching stuff that was NOT in the Qur'an for long before people started looking up passages for themselves, and going "WTF?", and asking around to other clerics.

ADDING: I would think that Arabic speakers WOULD be able to read the Qur'an, perhaps finding the wording archaic (like we currently find Shakespeare), but understandable. A work so central to the Arabic culture would act to hinder drifting of the language.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
I am still talking about Islam, and those Muslims who apply Islamic teachings (as distinct from those who are just ethnically Muslim).

A devout Muslim must consider himself to be at war with those who refuse to accept Islam:

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day ... until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low
Surah IX:29

The above passage (among many others) would justify acts of violence, robbery, and rape against infidels who do not accept Islam, as being in accordance with the state of war.

There are a number of Quranic passages and hadiths which explicitly allow using captured women as sex slaves. For example:


If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess.
Qur'an 4:3

In summary, there are Muslims who may consider themselves fighters operating behind enemy lines, and find plenty of passages to justify that viewpoint. Once you consider yourself a fighter in battle, then anything can be justified, so long as it does not unduly endanger fellow Muslims.

I need to go do stuff now, but will revisit this in more detail later, along with the other things you said. Regarding NoI and mainstream Islam: yes, regular Muslims DO NOT consider NoI as being Islamic.

Take as long as you want, this subject is getting very tedious.
 

OhMG

Patron Meritorious
One problem with that. Today, the Quran IS translated, and many translations are available online, and the "hate and war" passages are in there. An Islamic cleric would not be able to get away with preaching stuff that was NOT in the Qur'an for long before people started looking up passages for themselves, and going "WTF?", and asking around to other clerics.

ADDING: I would think that Arabic speakers WOULD be able to read the Qur'an, perhaps finding the wording archaic (like we currently find Shakespeare), but understandable. A work so central to the Arabic culture would act to hinder drifting of the language.

You're still going around with this person about the obvious? Boy you have a high tolerance level for illiteracy.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
You're still going around with this person about the obvious? Boy you have a high tolerance level for illiteracy.

OhMG, I happen to have a high tolerance for rudeness, but your nasty one-liners have just topped the threshold.

Buh bye.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Islam, like Catholicism and Judaism, relies on dusty documents written by sun-baked, mostly illiterate morons who had no access to a scientific understanding of the universe.

Let them go.

As for the people who follow such religions: just smile and nod, and move about your business. Any former Scientologist knows how effective challenging them directly will be.
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Islam, like Catholicism and Judaism, relies on dusty documents written by sun-baked, mostly illiterate morons who had no access to a scientific understanding of the universe.

Let them go.

As for the people who follow such religions: just smile and nod, and move about your business. Any former Scientologist knows how effective challenging them directly will be.

They clearly weren't illiterate. How can you create a written work and be illiterate?
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
You're still going around with this person about the obvious? Boy you have a high tolerance level for illiteracy.

My objective is not to "win" debates. My objective is to communicate with people to arrive at truth.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
They clearly weren't illiterate. How can you create a written work and be illiterate?

Mohammed was said to be not literate. The early Qur'an was memorized and recited, like other bardic works.

From wiki (for what it's worth):

The society during the time of Muhammad was predominantly oral and for this reason he would recite verses of the Qur'an to his Companions and instruct them to memorize it. Due to this, people question whether the Qur'an was ever written and collected during the time of Muhammad. While writing was not a common skill during the Muhammad’s time, Mecca, being the commercial center, had a number of people who could write. It is believed, according to some scholars, that up to 48 scribes including Zayd ibn Thabit and Ubayy ibn Ka’b had recorded verses of the Qur'an. This provides an explanation as to how the Qur'an existed in written form during the life of Muhammad, even if it was not compiled into one text.[12]

Most Sunni and Shi’i scholars believe that the Qur'an was written down in its entirety at the time of Muhammad’s death. The cousin of Muhammad Ibn Abbas describes the way in which the final version of the Qur'an was fixed: “the prophet recited the book before Gabriel every year in the month of Ramadan, and in the month in which he died he recited it before him twice.”[13] It is believed that the term “reciting the Qur’an twice” means compiling all the Qur'anic revelations into a complete and final version. It is understood that toward the end of Muhammad’s life a special act of revelation occurred in which a final and complete version of the Qur'an was created. The term recite, which is used here, is referring to the custom where a Qur'anic scholar recites the entire Qur'an from beginning to end a number of times before a senior scholar. According to this tradition the act of recital is being performed by Muhammad, with angel Gabriel playing the role of superior authority.[14]

In one hadith Muhammad supposedly said, “I leave among you two things of high estimation: the Book of God and my Family.”[15] Some scholars argue that this provides evidence that the Qur'an had been collected and written during this time because it is not correct to call something al-kitab (book) when it is merely in the [people’s] memories. The word al-kitab signifies a single and united entity and does not apply to a text which is scattered and not collected.[16]

Another argument these scholars bring up is the importance that the Muhammad attached to the Qur'an. They believe that since Muhammad put so much importance to the Qur'an he had to have ordered the writing of it during his lifetime. For example, Zayd ibn Thabit reported, “We used to record the Qur’an from parchments in the presence of the Messenger of God.”[17]

Some authors support the fact that the Qur'an was not compiled as a book until the death of the Muhammad is logical. As long as he was alive, there was always the expectation of further revelation as well as occasional abrogations. Any formal collection of the material already revealed could not properly be considered a complete text.[18]
 

SpecialFrog

Silver Meritorious Patron
They clearly weren't illiterate. How can you create a written work and be illiterate?

No Hebrew prophet prior to Jeremiah actually wrote anything attributed to them and even his authorship is far from certain.

Jesus wrote nothing himself and the only "apostle" who did is the one who didn't actually meet him.

Muhammad only recited the Quran. Others transcribed it, though I believe no copies currently in existence are from even 100 years after his death, when an official version was decided on and disagreeing versions were destroyed.

So while not all involved were technically illiterate, some of them were and all of them demonstrated an understanding of science and medicine consistent with Bronze and Iron Age nomads.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
They clearly weren't illiterate. How can you create a written work and be illiterate?

They didn't. These were all stories written down later by other people, after heavy editing and one-upsmanship.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1985/who-wrote-the-bible-part-1
http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/112-who-wrote-quran

The Jewish Rabbis were often literate, but rarely in any language other than Hebrew, and usually only read Jewish religioporn. They were still sun-baked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
They didn't. These were all stories written down later by other people, after heavy editing and one-upsmanship.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1985/who-wrote-the-bible-part-1
http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/112-who-wrote-quran

The Jewish Rabbis were often literate, but rarely in any language other than Hebrew, and usually only read Jewish religioporn. They were still sun-baked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

I was watching a History Channel program last night which remarked upon the similarities between the "Adam and Eve" and "Noah's Flood" sections of Genesis, with the Epic of Gilgamesh
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Welcome to the board Brother!! So happy you are hear. I must say, I was in the Church of Scientology during a time when some of the NOI people were coming into the smaller "churches" for services. We were told to never regg them or ask them to donate money - they were hands off - directed by David Miscavige.

My experience of the NOI people was very positive. Peaceful, loving and sincere mixed with innocence and trusting aura.

I feel very sad for the NOI people that are lead down the path to Scientology. I would ask Mr. F if he has read and researched everything he can about Scientology, L Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige? Does he know where he is leading his people into when he "recommends" services to his people?

I believe he is interested in the study tech. Please ask him to google: Lisa McPherson, Maria Pia Gardini, Debbie Cook, Luis Garcia for starters.

If you are here out of concern for your people - please help them. They are getting involved in a very dangerous cult!! Help them get out and help your leader see the truth.

Do his homework - he is responsible for leading his sheep and it may be right over the cliff!! Thank you again for joining us.

Mr. Muhammed, Welcome!

In addition to what Idle Morgue has said, I would encourage you to google the connection between L. Ron Hubbard and Alastair Crowley (a Satanist). Much of the upper level teachings of Scientology are based on the principles of Satanism.

Although the initial teachings of the Church of Scientology, as found in Dianetics, were helpful to me personally, I found very quickly that I could not, as a person of faith, continue in Scientology as the teaching became increasingly incompatible with my Christian faith.

Similarly, I would doubt that the teachings of Scientology are compatible with the worship of Allah and Islam.

I would encourage Mr. Farakhan to educate himself about the link between Scientology and Satanism.
 

Lone Star

Crusader
They didn't. These were all stories written down later by other people, after heavy editing and one-upsmanship.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1985/who-wrote-the-bible-part-1
http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/112-who-wrote-quran

The Jewish Rabbis were often literate, but rarely in any language other than Hebrew, and usually only read Jewish religioporn. They were still sun-baked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

Agreed they were sun-baked. Hell I'm sun-baked these days and have been hearing God talk to me! :omg:
 
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