New member. Currently reading Dianetics...

Discussion in 'New Member Introductions' started by bonaqua, Sep 6, 2018.

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  1. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    How many people were driven to bankruptcy with his basic training?
     
  2. phenomanon

    phenomanon Front door security.

    The rift and mass exodus occurred when the Mission Network was destroyed by RTC, on orders from L Ron Hubbard.
     
  3. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    I call Scientology the "placebo of self-help". Some people had some temporary benefit from Scientology. None received what Hubbard promised.

    This is consistent with the placebo effect -- people expect to get benefit and some do. Nothing you will read from Scientologists or ex-Scientologists refutes this truth.
     
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  4. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    How do you account for people (or life forms) who were "audited," or subjected to a Scientology procedure or technique, and didn't know it? All they knew was someone was talking to them or otherwise directing their attention?

    There are instances where such occurred and it was beneficial.

    Not in an earth shaking way, but to an extent sufficient to impress a new (or potential) Scientologist that "the tech works."

    The point being that, amongst the sea of words constituting the subject of Scientology, there might be a few ideas, or techniques, that have some merit.

    An example of this was "running havingness," on a grumpy cat. I'd pick up the cat, make sure he (she) was comfortable, and hold the cat a few feet away from an (any) object (in the room), to which the cat would express mild curiosity, and then, after pausing for a second so the cat could get a good sense of the object (which was at a height normally inaccessible to the cat), move closer to the object and let the cat touch the object with its nose (it would reach out) and smell the object.

    After doing this a few times, the previously grumpy or nervous cat would become serene and happy, and be purring loudly.

    Simply picking up and holding the cat, and petting the cat, did not have this effect.

    It's not uncommon for a person who's been exposed to some Scientology idea or technique to, then, use the idea or technique on another, often without explaining what he's doing. Some result, of some kind, occurs. This "sells" the person "applying Scientology" on the idea that "Scientology works."

    The person, erroneously, assumes that "if this part (of Scientology) worked then the rest (of Scientology) must work!"

    It usually doesn't help the newly convinced person to tell him or her that it's a "placebo," and could not - ever - be anything else.

    Certainly, in Scientology, it could be a placebo, especially when the recipient of the application of an idea or technique has been hyped, as commonly occurs in Scientology, or the person is mildly threatened, as also occurs in Scientology when it's explained that "Scientology always works!" and that something must be horribly wrong with the person if it doesn't, (which results in disapproval, expensive "review auditing," etc.), but is it always a placebo?

    A variation of this question is, "Is it always bullshit"?

    All it can take is one occasion, when it's (authentically) not a "placebo" and not "bullshit," to convince a budding Scientologist that Scientology is the real deal, and that its (broadly generalizing) critics are wrong.

    This is one way that a person can be lost to Scientology, and be sucked in to Scientology, for months or years.

    (Not that the op of the thread is in that category.)

    This is a long winded argument for being able to occasionally have a little nuance in the critiquing of a voluminous subject.
     
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  5. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    I have always held that it may be true that Hubbard was evil.

    But...

    Naaah...

    BOTTOM LINE:

    Auditing and auditor training are good things
     
  6. strativarius

    strativarius Comfortably Numb

    Yes, you're right, they ARE good! Good for nothing. Except making Hubbard a rich man.
     
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  7. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    God bless you my brother in Christ!

    I got a Protestant background and have finally denominated myself as a "Judeochristian Universalist"

    Now then...

    Some of Hubbard's material, such as "Jesus is an R6 implant" I view as a "PBI"; a "partly baked idea". In this instance the R6 material on "Dramatization" does seem to shed light on some of the more crunchy chewy versions of "Christian" belief and practice
     
  8. strativarius

    strativarius Comfortably Numb

    You are only an ARC straightwire release. What do you know about the R6 materials?
     
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  9. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    The cadet org sucks and i'd not want to take children onto the Apollo...
     
  10. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Did
     
  11. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Naw...

    Bankruptcy wasn't much of a problem...

    Even my buddies who came home in a body bag brought a few bucks with 'em
     
  12. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Yes, I would say placebo effect is sometimes a factor but my own doubleblind investigations eliminating placebo effect have produced excellent results
     
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  13. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Not an awful lot Stratsie and most of what I knew I can't recall off hand but back in San Francisco right from the start I gained a reputation for being very quick on the uptake and several people discussed R6. Those materials were rated "Confidential" not "Secret" and I am good to go on keeping confidences
     
  14. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Given that good people will work hard to help others using whatever tools are available -- and will sometimes succeed, and given the placebo effect, it isn't surprising that good people, using Hubbard's "tech" did provide some small benefits to others. That does not mean Hubbard's "tech" is a "good thing".

    If Hubbard's "tech" was good, we'd have seen the promised results. All we see are placebo effect results. We'd see the same kind of "gains" if the good, honest people were using shaman feathers and voodoo sticks.

    The good results, such as they are, are due to good, honest people trying to do good. Hubbard did nothing other than fool people into thinking his "tech" was the voodoo stick that they had to use.

    You can keep arguing that "auditing is good" but you know that the key factor is "good people trying" not "auditing".

    In spite of all the good people who believed, Hubbard still was able to create a horrible trap that ruined thousands, even tens of thousands of lives. If Hubbard hadn't done Scientology, the good people would have been able to help others anyway using some other method -- without the evil of Hubbard.
     
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  15. strativarius

    strativarius Comfortably Numb

    So you believe that the R6 bank supposedly 'handled' on the Clearing course is the result of real implants delivered millions of years ago?
     
  16. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    No.
    Intelligent men and women of good will are essential but the tech can produce significant result with rote, unskilled application
     
  17. pineapple

    pineapple Patron Meritorious

    A different time and place. I grew up reading science fiction, gave up on my religion when I was 13 (Catholicism), and had taken LSD about 75 times. I'd recently been reading Carlos Casteneda. Stare at someone for hours? Why not? Casteneda prepared me for the hallucinations on TR-0.
    Technically, Hubbard doesn't say Jesus (the man) is an R6 implant. He says Jesus was "a lover of men and boys," i.e. homosexual. It's the image of the crucified Christ that's an implant. "The psychiatrist is also shown crucified."
    Great. Whatever works for you.
     
  18. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    What? How does this contradict anything I've said about the "tech"? If the "preclear" expects some benefit, placebo effect says some will experience some benefit no matter the "tech". Your assertion doesn't address or counter that known phenomenon.
     
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  19. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    Actually, Hubbard said (on the BC tapes ) that Jesus never existed.....it was all fake....never happened.

    Then, elsewhere, he said....Jesus was an implant....

    Then, from what I've read, the first OT 8 course....Hubbard wrote " Jesus was a lover of men and boys...a homosexual." ( or something to that effect...) Edited: and perhaps on the Class 8 course?


    Typical of Hubbard....changing his tune often and when he felt like it...

    Hubbard certainly had a button about Jesus!
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
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  20. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    No, it doesn't contradict

    It does note unskilled but properly drilled auditors can get good result not limited to placebo effect
     

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