Obamacare and Health Insurance for Sea Org & Staff (USA)

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by failboat, Sep 25, 2013.

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  1. failboat

    failboat Patron with Honors

    A lot of AnonyMary's commentary above addresses the Individual mandate, not the Employer mandate.

    I am not certain whether AnonyMary thought she was discussing the Employer Mandate or the Individual Mandate when she quoted the material that she did. However, this flow chart and the one I just posted should hopefully clarify the differences between the 2. **


    ** I also addressed the idea that Scientology is a religion opposed to insurance in the OP of this thread - my conclusion was that Scientologists could not apply for exemption from the individual mandate based on religious objections. Furthermore, that exemption is from the individual mandate, and has no bearing on the employer mandate.

    EDIT: And here's that employer mandate flowchart again, for easy comparison. I wish that this forum had more than 10 posts per page. LoneStar, I addressed the employee vs. volunteer issue in the OP.


  2. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    Deleted due to not really caring about this topic actually. The least of my concerns by far.
  3. failboat

    failboat Patron with Honors

    I did clear those words, in the OP.

    Volunteers can make up to $500 per year, no more. OP cites federal laws on this. Check OP for links.

    Sea Org and Staff receive W-2's. The IRS classifies W-2's as employment tax forms. Federal tax law requires people who are compensated $600 or more per year to be issued W-2's. http://www.irs.gov/uac/Form-W-2,-Wage-and-Tax-Statement
  4. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    Okie dokie.

    I still think DM can work around this. He can "fix it" to where they don't make more than $500 and stop issuing W-2s. No problemo for the Dwarfenfuhrer and his creative, slimy tax attorneys. Monique Dingaling is probably already on it.
  5. failboat

    failboat Patron with Honors

    I anticipate high turnover in the near future if DM wants to reduce wages to under $10/week for Sea Org AND Staff. The paycut for Sea Org would be over 80%, while the paycut for staff would probably be well over 90%.

    If they lost many/most of their employees, then that would be an amazingly good outcome from Obamacare, IMO.
  6. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    I'm really surprised that DM didn't choose to challenge the law like other "religious" organizations have and are doing. Most are objecting to the abortion and birth control coverage. Scn could object to the mental health coverage requirement, which is against their "religion".

    Some of the legal challenges have yet to be decided by the courts. DM may try to piggy back on the precedent if those churches are successful.
  7. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    I'd agree, that is the thinking. Anybody who was duped into scientology and ultimately the Sea Org, thinking they are the elite, and will become OT maximus by joining the winning team,

    will not give a shit about the Obama health care insurance plan. I signed that stupid SO billion year contract, and made it thru the "welcome to the SO course", until I blew.

    I, at the time, didn't care about any "wog" laws.

    Anybody who got as far as me and beyond, certaintly didn't care about "wog" laws. Those laws were inferior to the master plan of scientology. We were the elite, the chosen few.......................

  8. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    My opinion, failboat, is that the churches of scientology and other entities under the Org Board that did not in the past provide insurance are going to comply and get the required insurance ( if they have not already ) The churches ( the employers ) won't have to pay any penalty on a mandate because they would be complying. Which I stated they would. And I explained how they would get around not having to pay lots of money because there are loopholes for a good majority the employees so they can decline purchasing their of the costs. But you would have known that had you read all of what I wrote.
  9. failboat

    failboat Patron with Honors

    I did read all of what you wrote. I apologize for the briefness of my response above, or if it implied a level of comprehension to where I had not read all of what you had written. I was watching the conference and didn't have time to address all of your comments. I also didn't get a chance to visit all your links.

    High deductible group plans would indeed be an unattractive prospect for CoS employees and discourage them from buying in.

    I just want to point out the boxes in the employer mandate flowchart above that say:

    • "Do any employees have to pay more than 9.5% of family income for the employer coverage?"
    • "Did at least one employee receive a premium tax credit or cost sharing subsidy in an exchange?"
    • And the two boxes directly below it that also refer to employees seeking health insurance on exchanges

    It appears that penalties accrue if even one employee seeks health care on exchanges or a premium tax credit, and that the employer coverage must pay for at least 60% of the covered health care expenses, and also that the employer provided coverage must be less expensive than 9.5% of the family's income.

    In any case, I do appreciate your input, and I will be spending time with your links.
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  10. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    My point, failboat, is that the churches WILL buy plans for employees, so there will be no penalties for them.
  11. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    What counts as an employer? We loosely talk about "The Church of Scientology," but there is no such corporate entity.

    Consider a large local org, and let's say it has 90 staff. They all legally work for the corporation named "Church of Scientology of Crapsville." So a new corporation gets rapidly created, called "Church of the Black Death" or something, which employs 45 of the staff (less than the magic 50). Let's say half the divisions belong to one, half to another, and a few staff get shuffled onto other posts so the numbers balance. The paperwork matches, in that they all signed new contracts and their payslips have different headings etc etc.

    Why couldn't they play some kind of shell game like that?

  12. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    Very good point, and it confirms my suspicion that Obamacare will not impact "the Church" much if at all. All they have to do is have each "entity" only "employ" up to but not over 50 people. Businesses under 50 employees are exempt from the employer mandate.

    Or like I said earlier DM will just slash their pay even more and make sure no one gets more than $500 or 600 per year so that they will legally be just volunteers.
  13. failboat

    failboat Patron with Honors

    Employer Mandate Begins Tomorrow

    Tomorrow is 1/1/15, which is the day that the employer mandate begins. See post #161 above for a summary of the employer mandate.

    I haven't had time to do very much research on this stuff for the last 6 months.

    Meanwhile, here's a few things that I have had time to notice. Hat tip to Communicator I/C - I believe he has threads on this first item both at ESMB and WWP, but I am too tired to go find them right now. Feel free to post links to those threads if you want.

    Also this. Indicates that there are more than 50 Sea Org at LA Org, and also has some speculation about other orgs (not excerpted):

    Feel free to post questions here, but don't count on me to be able to answer them quickly.

    If you've read this whole thread, then I welcome your informed, on-topic commentary.
  14. Helena Handbasket

    Helena Handbasket Gold Meritorious Patron

    Either way, expect the C of S to tie the matter up in courts for years.

    I myself am not in favor of mandatory health insurance, but I am in favor of appropriate health care for everyone. People tend to get so hung up on insurance that they forget about what the insurance is supposed to accomplish.

    I got caught in the German insurance net (which is a lot like Obamacare). So if Obama doesn't make me buy insurance, Merkel will.

    What do you call a system for extracting money from the sick? HEALTH CARE.

    What do you call a system for extracting money from the healthy? INSURANCE.

    Helena, who would make an act of insurance punishable by law
  15. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    The CoS is exempt from this mandate. No discussion needed.
  16. La La Lou Lou

    La La Lou Lou Crusader

    Either DM is letting other 'religions' do the expensive law work, and watching, or he couldn't give a toss because he'll just move staff to other continents, or of course just delay payments as long as he can or until he flies to Korea to start a new life with a very fat private jet full of gold.

    It is against scn principles to care about downstat sick people, he will find ways not to.
  17. So far as I know, Christian Scientists have nothing against getting insurance in general (Life, home, auto, health, etc.) as the Amish do. I can report from my experience with helping an elderly relative that some Christian Scientists do have insurance policies that will cover their "health care"; specifically treatments by Practitioners, Christian Science private nursing in home care, (they do just about everything regular nurses do except give medicine) or cover a stay in an accredited Christian Science nursing home or care facility. Not sure if group home or long term care facilities are covered as well, but maybe yes, like as for disability insurance. Policy holders have a share of cost and a deductable, just as in most more traditional health care coverage.

    In other words, there are already existing "health" insurance policies which are specifically tailored to the needs of Christian Science church members, and many members have them in place for when a need arises. So getting insured may not be that big a hurdle for most Christian Scientists, except for the cost. It's possible the Mother Church will facilitate some low to moderate cost group policies with the companies who can offer this type of insurance as a service to their members.

    Here's a resource which may be informative: http://christianscience.com/member-...us-federal-office/health-care-reform/aca-faqs
    "Coverage of Christian Science health care services-
    Various U.S. federal, state, and private health insurance plans provide for the reimbursement of Christian Science nursing care and practitioner treatment. The U.S. Federal Office has been working to increase the availability of insurance options that cover these types of care.

    Medicare and Christian Science nursing facilities-
    Seventeen Christian Science nursing facilities across the United States are Medicare providers. (Find out which ones from the Commission for Accreditation of Christian Science Nursing Organizations/Facilities, Inc.)"
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
  18. failboat

    failboat Patron with Honors

    Obamacare has two mandates - an individual mandate, and an employer mandate.

    Individual members of the CoS are not exempt from the individual mandate to get insured.

    Despite your assertion, I believe the CoS is not exempt from the employer mandate, so I would be happy to discuss the reasons why. Oh, wait, I have been posting them all in this thread, with dox and links to back me up.

    You are welcome to discuss counterpoints for why you think the CoS is exempt. However, since you seem to think the discussion is over by way of your unsupported comment, I will not hold out hope for your participation.
  19. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    Yes, individuals are not exempt from the individual mandate. But the CoS is exempt from the employer mandate. But I don't wish to discuss it. I just know I am right. That's all that matters. LOL.....

    But others may wish to discuss. By all means....do!
  20. Smurf

    Smurf Gold Meritorious SP

    That was this year. The rules change tomorrow. http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-employer-mandate

    Sea Org members are not exempt from Obamacare.

    "If you belong to any of the groups listed below you are exempt from ObamaCare’s mandate to “obtain minimum essential coverage” (i.e. buy insurance)....

    Religious Conscience- People can qualify for religious exemptions. The Social Security Administration administers the process for recognizing these sects according to the criteria in the law.

    Health Care Sharing Ministry- If you are a member of a recognized health care sharing ministry you qualify for an exemption.


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