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Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Vinaire, May 6, 2009.
I guess that proves it's true that everything in the universe can be put in a lady's purse.
No wonder I can never find my keys.
Thetan is identical with the concept of self (atman). Buddha contemplated on the subject of ATMAN and came up with the realization that even atman is impermanent. NIRVANA is the state of final dissolution of even atman.
Atman underlies all other identities. But, according to Buddha, it itself is impermanent, and finally dissolves, as other identities do, when the state of nirvana (native state, Brahma) is reached. So, I look at self, atman, or thetan as the basic identity. It is the identity that underlies all other identities.
LRH, apparently, disagreed with Buddha; because he stated in Scientology 8-8008:
However, I would go with Buddha here. Nirvana doesn't mean becoming one with rest of the universe. At the level of Brahma, there is no universe. There is only an "absolute potential of nothingness."
I do believe that LRH had misunderstood Static, Brahma, or Nirvana. He never reached the enlightenment that Buddha did.
So you are back! I have been very busy on other websites, especially my own thread where I tell of my experiences on the Apollo and CCLA. That thread has expanded from just being a story about me to being a whole happening. It is currently getting a lot of readers and participants.
I do not agree with LRH either! The longer I read on ESMB the lower my opinion of LRH becomes. Its sad but true. Early this year, I was still determined to retain significant allegiance to LRH but at this point I really have almost nothing good to say about the man.
In the LRH quote above, I do not agree at all with the first senence that there is a control mechanism where when thetans elevate their potential, they tend to believe that they are one with the universe. I do tend to feel something like this when I elevate my potential but I feel that it comes from within me, my atman as you call it. I sure do not detect any control mechanism operating behind the scenes. Usually, I can easily spot some kind of control mechanism within me at work, if one exists. If a hidden one is at work when potential is raised, it is a masterpiece of an implant because it is invisible to detection when a thetan is at a very high state.
I am sure that Buddha reached a higher level of awareness than Hubbard did. I was thinking today that when a person is given wrong items or they are enforced on a person, that is detrimental to the case of the person receiving the wrong items and it is an overt act on the person enforcing the wrong items.
The same is true of libel, degrading a person with false written information and slander, lying about a person and degrading him with false verbal information. Slander and Libel are actual crimes that one can be sued for. They ruin lives and are an overt on the person who spreads libel and slander.
Hubbard gave out wrong items continuously telling people they were degraded beings, incompetent, insane, embezzlers, etc.
He libeled people by printing up and posting declarations that people were Suppressive (psychotic), that they had overts and withholds which they did not have, etc. and he would damage their right to earn a livelyhood by revoking the certificates which they had paid for. worked for and demonstrated competence with.
Everything he did in libeling people he also did verbally in slandering them. He did all this merely because one either did not agree with something he said or one was not sufficiently trained to do something he wanted done. He did this continuously over many decades.
Hubbard said in his own Bulletin on continous overts: "Pity the one who does continous overts. He will never make it!" Based on Hubbard's own policy, he will never make it because of all the wrong items, slander and libel he has caused to people. Buddha took a 180 degree different approach to enlightenment and his actions demonstrate a higher degree of enlightenment than Hubbard's do. The only thing the two men had in common was a large endowment of theta or elan vital or whatever you call it. Hubbard may have matched Buddha in potential but despite doing a vast amount of work, somewhere along the line, or maybe from the begining, Hubbard did not use his great potential for the common good while Buddha did use his.
I was thinking about this somemore
Let me consolidate my understanding of Brahma, Nirvana, or Static:
(1) I shall use the word STATIC for the moment in an attempt to describe my understanding at this level. It doesn't really matter what word I use because word is not the "thing."
(2) The problem here is that there is NOTHING to describe. As far as our knowingness is concerned we can only know the considerations that appear spontaneously and randomly... from where... that is impossible to know .
(3) We can never know what lies beyond these considerations. We may certainly CONSIDER what lies beyond; but then, we would only know the consideration we make.
(4) Thus, we can only know the considerations and not the Static. As we dig deeper for the Static we shall simply find more considerations.
(5) Actually, as we dig deeper for the static in our attempt to describe it, we may describe our own hidden considerations as we uncover them.
(6) Thus, Static is nothing more than a carrot, to help uncover the additives (considerations) that may be lie hidden deep in our consciousness. That is more than wonderful.
(7) Static is the core of beingness. It is not the beingness itself. When we think of beingness we think of the thetan.
(8 ) Whether thetan dissolves into Static or not is neither here nor there. At the level of Static there is no time. So, whether one is Static for a billion years or for just a blink of an eye. It is the same thing.
(9) We would never know if we had ever dissolved into being a Static or not. All we would ever know at the highest level is being a thetan in its simplest form.
(10) As far as we are concerned, the ideal of Static is simply there to help us uncover the deepest of our considerations.
And beyond this:
(11) A thetan can be constrained only by its own considerations. Total freedom would mean not constrained by one's own considerations.
(12) Only those considerations would constrain a thetan that are being generated unconsciously.
(13) A thetan may enjoy life fully, participate in any and all adventures, while also being aware of all considerations one is generating even at the deepest level.
(14) That would be Nirvana... that would Static... that would be attaining Brahmahood; for this doesn't mean forsaking of life and adventure.
(15) Nirvana, or total freedom, simply means absence of hidden considerations even at the deepest level. It means total command over oneself. The concept of Brahma, as built into the process "neti, neti," helps one move in that direction.
(16) Nirvana would simply mean the ability to generate a consideration, hold on to that consideration, and then destroy that consideration.
(17) Nirvana does not mean forsaking this universe. Nirvana simply means total control over one's considerations. One can attain Nirvana while being in this universe. In fact one's enjoyment of this universe would be infinitely greater after attaining nirvana.
(18) Buddha lived to a grand age of 90, quite rare for his time, after attaining nirvana.
I think this sums it up for me. Thank you for all your help.
You are assuming that there is such a thing as "static" in spiritual terms.
Can you direct me (links) to some scientific proof of this?
One of the problems I had with the word static was that it was essentially a MEST universe word. It implied lack of movement (in one sense) or enharmonius vibration (in another sense), and both are aspects of energy and space.
It looks like Vinny wrapped it up to me.
I believe with his last post, Vinny has told us that his participation of this thread is complete. We'll see but that's what I think he meant.
As to your question, first, Vin said that he chose to use the word Static just to have a word to use, he said that any word could be used because the word is not the thing. Second, can you direct me to links showing some scientific proof for such a thing as "static" exisitng in the physical universe? You seem to imply that the term has validity in the physical universe, as defined by science, and therefore the spiritual usage of the term must also be defined by science for it to have enough validity to be used in an intelligent discussion.
In the physical universe, in the sense in which a spiritual person is using the term, science describes a static as an object not in motion and it is impossible for such an object to exist in the the physical universe.
I would like for you to direct me to some scientific proof that the static science has defined can actually exist in the physical universe? While you are at it, I would also like to be directed to non circular scientific definitions for matter, energy, space and time. Each of those 4 items is only defined by invoking the usage of the other three terms, resulting in a circular definition where none of the four terms is defined without mentioning the other three.
I am tracking you very well on these.
Vin - I am surprisingly tracking your post very well. I like your conclusions reached in #5 and #6.!
On #7 to #10 I also track very well. We are not used to thinking without time passage but it is possible and when one adds that to his bag of tools for understanding life, it is a powerful tool. That's why I brought up the analogy of a start up corporation. I find it so helpful in thinking without time passage. A person and/or a Board of directors must exist before the start up time of the corporation and must make declarations as to when the corporation will go "on line" Prior to that declared start up date, all time is equal wheter it was the day before incorportation or billions of years before.
#10 to #17 are equally lucid and seem to be self eveident, once they are pointed out. #12 is the key to understanding the entire mix. I think Freud touched on this point and Hubbard greatly expanded it, including a handbook of proposed procedures to mitigate this fact.
A new term should be coined to express the concept of encountering a concept which one never thought of on his own but then after it being revealed to him by another, it seems self evident.
#14 and #17 address my questions which you responded to. I love to "play the game "and find out new discoveries so after reading #14 and #17, waves of joy and happiness reverberated throughout my beingness. Perhaps for just a smidgeon of time, I got a taste of Nirvana. That is a lot to say because Nirvana is timeless, so if you've tasted it you know ti.
#18 is your tribute to a man who probably had this all figured out 2,500 years ago and lived its precepts and tried to spread them to others.
To me, #11 answered a long standing question for me. Can we be free of the restraints of the physical universe once we attain a high enough awareness or do we have to stick around and help others achieve a similar level before we take our freedom. FROM WHAT I GET FROM READING #11 IS THAT IT IS UP TO EACH INDIVIDUAL TO MAKE THAT CHOICE! That concepts also invokes a feeling of joy in me.
Vin - If this is the end of your moderating this thread, which is how I took your concluding remarks, then I want to ACKNOWLEDGE YOU for all the effort you made to get this information out to the public and all that you have done and given of yourself to create this amazing thread. I for one, have changed greatly for the better by participating here. THANK YOU !! If you decide to continue posting here and I am wrong, I still want to acknowledge and thank you so no harm done. I am fond of my personal history with you. We met for a few seconds around the beginning of 1972 aboard the Sea Org vessel, the Bolivar, and merely smiled at each other and energetically shook hands. Thirty seven years later, I hook up with you over the internet on ESMB and you become a mentor of mine. The story would make a good movie. The story is not done yet, I will see you up the line on other threads and possibly other web sites.
Looks like I am going to have some fun with this one.
Here you go PG:
Trying to prove anything is an aberration. Just look at the above and draw your own conclusions.
I hope that problem is gone now thetanic.
I am glad that these points are helping you find answers. These points, as worded, may make sense to you and me but that won't be the case with everybody.
There is no perfect wording that may express the understanding at this level. Yes, I have arrived at a long sought plateau. With this understanding, I now want to look around at all the considerations swirling around in my universe.
Suddenly, things have started to flow very smoothly for me since the last few days. I hope this continues. I feel very happy and content at the moment.
I may continue to write here, but I already find more of my time being spent at The Scientology Forum of Geir Isene.
Anyway, any answers that anybody is looking for, are not in the points above. Those answers are within the person himself or herself. But if the above points can help a person find those answers within himself or herself, that would be a Christmas Bonus for me.
I wish you all a very merry Christmas.
One thing that is really opening up a new world for me at the moment is the following post from Alan Walters describing the Ho`oponopono process:
I hope you are having fun, Alan.
I'm glad I hung in there.
Vin, I read the above link which you provided. It is now part of me, I knew quite a few parts of its precepts put had not but it all together into a consistent system or method of looking at and living life. I probably would have never advanced to that level on my own without being shown the way. Again thanks for putting up the link and to the good doctor for originating it. I am glad I stuck with this thread when you had stopped posting for a couple of weks. Something drove me on to continue looking here for something new from you. This link was undoubtedly the item I needed to break new ground and move to a higher level of wisdom. My apetite for more spiritual guidance is satisfied for the moment as I will be applying this new wisdom to my life immediately.
I am so glad it is working for you and things are going so smoothly in your life. You really earned the happiness you have achieved!! I hope to experience similar results and join you basking in the happiness of a smooth life, being well and righeously lived. If word of this process gets out on the internet broadly enough, life on Earth could become a paradise very quickly!
Vinaire is still a wanker .. as is the Eastern way
Just passing by, again, to say
Vinaire is full of it ...
Total waste of space and time, not that he would care about such things, it's what he does.
Join his 'circle-jerk' to nowhere and be as lost as he is
The Nature of God
ESSAY #6: THE NATURE OF GOD
Is it a must that there be an ultimate cause, or an ultimate creator?
I no longer think so.
Both "ultimate cause" and "ultimate creator" are considerations in themselves, and may be discarded as arbitrary.
A manifestation may just happen without any creator or cause. But one may attach a "creator" or "cause" to it.