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  1. strativarius

    strativarius Comfortably Numb

    In case anyone is interested, I was surprised to find (while reading the Wikipedia article on Gore Vidal) this paragraph.

    The rights of German Scientologists

    In 1997, Gore Vidal was one of thirty-four public intellectuals and celebrities who signed an open-letter addressed to Helmut Kohl, the Chancellor of Germany, published in the International Herald Tribune, protesting the treatment of Scientologists in Germany. Despite that stance as a dispassionate intellectual, Gore Vidal was fundamentally critical of Scientology as religion.

    I went looking for the other 33 signatories to this letter, and the first article I came upon that bore this information was this one.

    I thought there were some interesting names on the list that might be worth sharing.

    ETA:

    On the same Wiki page there's this quote from Vidal himself- nothing to do with why I originally posted, but quite topical given the situation in the world today.

    "A characteristic of our present chaos is the dramatic migration of tribes. They are on the move from east to west, from south to north. Liberal tradition requires that borders must always be open to those in search of safety, or even the pursuit of happiness. But now, with so many millions of people on the move, even the great-hearted are becoming edgy. Norway is large enough and empty enough to take in 40 to 50 million homeless Bengalis. If the Norwegians say that, all in all, they would rather not take them in, is this to be considered racism? I think not. It is simply self-preservation, the first law of species".
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
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  2. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Yeah. Just because they have the space - it is forested. These people show up with pretty much what they can carry themselves. How are they to develop that land? And if they did what could they grow? The summers are too short, and the winters too cold and long.

    They also tend to move in with communities of their own instead of integrating. They begin to rely on the Norwegian social services and put a drain on the system that it was not designed to handle that volume of people.

    No one wants them to die, but also they don't want to admit so many that their country collapses under the burden. It is a nasty situation for both sides.

    Mimsey
     
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  3. Enthetan

    Enthetan Mutant

    That's the big thing: admitting a whole bunch of people who are unlikely to become self supporting anytime soon, especially if they arrive in sufficient numbers to form insulated communities instead of having no choice but to integrate and assimilate.

    The crisis comes when there are enough people on "public assistance" that they turn into a significant voting bloc (and the admitting countries will not be able to get away with not giving immigrants the vote along with all the rights of natives -- that would be called apartheid)

    When the welfare systems collapse, it will be very ugly.
     
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  4. screamer2

    screamer2 Patron with Honors

    It's already very ugly. If the truth were made public, there would be revolution overnight. The trick is going to be how to keep the people in the dark long enough and feed them enough bullshit for this 'immigration' to be non-reversible.
     
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  5. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    In September the Norwegian government announced plans to grant the police an additional £10million to forcibly remove failed asylum seekers by the end of 2017.
    The grant came after police were tasked with removing 9,000 migrants by the end of 2016 as the country deals with the deepening crisis.
    State Secretary Fabian Stang confirmed on Friday the number of deportations were at the highest number ever, up five per cent from figures in 2015, when the crisis began.

    Mr Stang, who is secretary for Immigration Minister Sylvi Listhaug, told NRK: “This is a figure that shows that there have been many who do not have a legitimate claim to asylum who have stayed here and failed to leave the country, and that’s why it is necessary for the police to do the work they have done throughout the year.”

    “It's always brutal when one is forced to use the police to get people to do what they are required to.”
    Despite 2016 being hailed as a successful year, police failed to reach the government’s target of deporting 9,000 illegal immigrants by December 31 with just 7,312 being deported by the end of November.
    More than a fourth of those who were forced to leave the country had criminal records and were from Poland, Romania and Lithuania.
    Last year, the Police Immigration Service (PIS) expelled 7,825 migrants from the Scandinavian country

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/748976/Norway-migrant-crackdown-record-numbers-deported-2016
     
  6. Enthetan

    Enthetan Mutant

    The immigration is not "non-reversible". The system will break down long before there are enough immigrants in Europe to take over. Then it will get ugly.

    This is not ugly. Yet. The Europeans are not sufficiently scared yet. They are not yet at the point where they feel they are under existential threat. When I say "ugly", I'm thinking about 1930's-40's level of ugly.

    Or worse. That's what I'm afraid of. The supposed "elites" think they will be able to control things. I think they overestimate their own cleverness.
     
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  7. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor


    That's precisely how it is..."the Europeans are not sufficiently scared yet". Generations-deep in jaded Socialistic indoctrination, most Europeans (save certain countries with a still-vital and reasonably thinking society) are asleep at the wheel (again).

    They missed the clear danger signals of World War II and having a raving madman threatening to take over the World for Germany----even after armed conflict had already broken out! Hitler ran over them because Europeans (generally) did not respond to the nightmarish threat hanging over their heads in any way that can be considered reasonable or even sane.

    Now (70 years since Hitler's campaign of terror and death) Europeans have devolved further and think nothing of allowing MILLIONS of unvetted third world countries, most of those sending persons with radical Islamic beliefs/practices, Sharia Law and terrorism right into the heart of European cities and neighborhoods. This is beyond mere stupidity. It's a death wish! These are sovereign nations openly committing suicide in front of the rest of the world!

    I am loathe to continue the description of how low Europeans have fallen, but now that Europeans have acclimated themselves to world wars and importing Islamic terror, it will take something really huge to wake them up.

    Mass murders on their main streets and sidewalks has not even stirred them slightly from their deep slumber.

    Constantly viewing filmed footage of ISIS beheading and burning alive Westerners has not helped Europeans awaken either. They remain oblivious to the armies of raging Jihadis around the world and in their own cities who have all long since declared war on Europe, and the Western races/religions living within.

    How comatose would one have to be to not know that a state of war has been declared against them and the enemy is trying everything possible to murder them?

    It's going to take an event probably of the nuclear kind...or biological warfare. Very possibly too late to save millions of victims. That might catch their attention. At least enough to momentarily arise from their coma in order to tweet something mean about how Donald Trump (or their local proponent of controlling the borders/immigration) somehow caused the Muslims to set off a tactical nuclear device killing millions in one or more population centers like (Paris, London, Rome, Berlin, Madrid, Athens, etc...)

    The proof of what open borders and unvetted immigration and "sanctuary" cities (that don't enforce law) leads to is beyond obvious at this point. The social justice warriors that allowed it, themselves, would never walk in one of those high-crime zones without an armed escort, if at all.

    And even without the nightmarish crime wave caused by lawless immigration, the identical problem exists in all major US cities in ultra-progressive (left wing) social engineering experiments where "no-go" war zones exist across every major urban landscape, dominated by local warlords and terrorists known otherwise as gangs. All those former centers of gleaming "free market" prosperity have now devolved into post-apocalyptic murder zones.

    The reason I even bother to mention the last paragraph is that not only is Europe blind, but maybe half of the US voters don't see any danger either, even when they currently live in murder capital cities like Los Angeles, Chicago, St. Louis, Oakland, New Orleans, Baltimore, Philadelphia, et al. And the many tens of millions of African Americans and Hispanics who live in those ghettos have fallen asleep too, and the leftist politicians will say or do nothing to awaken their cult of slumbering voters.

    SIMPLER ANSWER (to the question of what it'll take to wake up Europeans to the enemy forces assembling within their own countries): To wake up there will have to be broad-scale death, of enough nightmarish scale for them to fear for their own or their families lives. Sorry, this answer is not based on opinion, it's based on a 1000 years of historical facts.

    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
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  8. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Well - I don't know if I agree with you completely - but Spain was once a Muslim country. From reading Lawrence Wright's books - According to the radical Islamists, it is a mark of dishonor on Islam that they were kicked out and would like nothing better to reclaim it.

    Quite possibly the Europeans will wake up to the fact as more and more Muslims get elected, and vote in new laws that they find themselves in a Muslim state, complete with Sharia Law being enforced and being given the choice to bow down to Allah. I don't agree that Europe has fallen so low, but rather, is stupidly expecting them to accept their european culture. It all depends on how many of the radicals get themselves in positions of power, and effect a change.

    I don't agree that all third world people are a risk, nor do I know how you would go about vetting them - it's not like you can go to their home countries and ask. But it only takes a few radicals to create a nasty conflict. We have an ocean between them but if Europe converts? What next?

    Also - there is a slow revolution in Islamic countries that want the western ways, as movies, the internet, and other social media spreads through the countries - I don't see an easy road in any event. There are too many who, like Scientologists, think it is their way or the highway.

    Mimsey
     
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  9. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    .

    That is not how it's done. You are mistakenly focused on the "long game". The short game that is already taking over most Western cultures is not done with Muslim lawmakers. It is done by corrupt left-wing politicians keeping themselves in office/power/money by playing Blacks, Hispanics and other "minorities" as smoothly as a three-card monty shark legally steals his mark's money every time. Playing the patronizing game for votes, that's how it works.

    The takeover is ALREADY in progess and has spread widely across the US in the form of "no go zones" for Black/Hispanic gang-controlled neighborhoods. The takeover is ALREADY in full gear with mayors and governors of left wing bumpersticker idealism declaring no-law-enforcment zones by attempting to legitimize a new word for sedition--Sanctuary.

    The Muslims just need sanctuary, and safe-spaces. Don't you understand that they have just watched the terrorist group ANTIFA shut down streets, conventions and cities? Don't you think the Muslim strategists noticed how "sanctuary" and SJW values and race-baiting tactics DID NOT REQUIRE LAWMAKERS TO CHANGE ANY LAW.

    Instead, the radical wings just made it heroic to IGNORE THE LAWS. Muslims will continue adapting the simple trojan horse approach to destabilizing and conquering the West from within, using SANCTUARY laws and other "anti-racist" and "islamophobic" activism that simply ignores the law and decries anyone who tries to stop it as a racist or islamophobe.

    The problem with all of this is that appx. 50% of the population DOES NOT want to fix the problem. They prefer chaos, anarchy and the ever-present threat of identity warfare. This ensures the left wing a vast population of ignorant and agitated voters who mistakenly think the left actually cares about them.

    The lawlessness is already running the streets.

    No terrorist group needs to wait for "new laws". They don't follow laws in the first place.

    All that is necessary is to cleverly sway the masses with propaganda that positions criminal lawlessness as "resistance", a romantic and valorous status worthy of honor and praise.

    SIMPLE FIX: If you can't easily and thoroughly vet them, they don't get in. Problem solved. The same way YOU decide who you allow to walk into your home, or not. You don't just leave the unlocked and wide-open so that anybody can just walk in. How is this a difficult concept?

    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
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  10. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    . . .
    HelluvaHoax! is right on the money.

    Reality is not optional for him and he's never distracted by the post-modern
    fantasies created by misguided intelligentsia and self-serving politicians.

    My contribution to the thread is my "Muslim Armageddon" reading list. :evillaugh:

    Londonistan
    by Melanie Phillips 2007
    The World Turned Upside Down:
    The Global Battle over God, Truth, and Power
    by Melanie Phillips 2011
    America Alone: The End of the World As We Know It
    by Mark Steyn 2008
    After America: Get Ready for Armageddon
    by Mark Steyn 2012​

    Melanie Phillips is very real and brilliant always. :yes:

    Mark Steyn is a bit dark at times (cuz the world is) but always hilarious. :yes:
     
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  11. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Ok. While i understand the influx of Islamists into europe, aren't they still the minority? I can't see the US of A having such an influx and it's resultant chaos. I think they will remain a minority here no matter the terrorist acts they may visit on us. Much the same in China and Russia though they are making inroads there.

    Christianity (31.5%)
    Islam (23.2%)
    Hinduism (15.0%)
    Buddhism (7.1%)

    I still don't think the extremists in Islam have the majority's approval, though they may be powerless to stop them from committing acts of terror.

    I dunno. Inshallah, it won't come to pass,

    Mimsey
     
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  12. Teanntás

    Teanntás Patron Meritorious

    I just started reading "The Strange Death of Europe"
    by Douglas Murray

    "Murray is especially pungent when he looks at the doubt-plagued, death-haunted, and deconstructed edifice of contemporary European philosophy. He recalls a conference in which the “full catastrophe of German thought” dawned on him: A group of academics and others had gathered to discuss the history of Europe’s relations with the Middle East and North Africa. It soon became clear that nothing would be learned because nothing could be said. A succession of philosophers and historians spent their time studiously attempting to say nothing as successfully as possible. The less that was successfully said, the greater the relief and acclaim. No attempt to address any idea, history or fact was able to pass without first being put through the pit-stop of the modern academy. No generality could be attempted and no specific could be uttered. It was not only history and politics that were under suspicion. Philosophy, ideas and language itself had been cordoned off as though around the scene of a crime. It may seem like a long way from a conference of German academicians to the morning chat shows on the BBC, but the sentimentality and emptiness of the bubbly TV anchor after the Manchester bombing are directly related to the pseudo-sophisticated nullity of the former. Nothing of substance can be said, because nothing should be known, because to know anything is to become dangerous to oneself and the world. And thus Europe’s story is to enthrone all of its opposite values, where there was national self-assertion, now there is national abasement. Where there were dons who guarded the West’s knowledge, now there are professors who guard against the possibility of knowing anything, where religiosity meant the reign of peace and looking forward to the life to come, now it means a reign of terror and the death of civilization itself. Europe is in a bad way, and I fear that if terror cannot wake it from sleep, neither will elegant books."

    Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...strange-death-europe-manchester-terror-attack
     
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  13. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    You seem to give extraordinary weight to the concept of MAJORITY/MINORITY when it comes to radical Islamic power. As if their jihadi agenda would need to sway "the majority" of voters -- or perhaps win enough votes to elect Muslim leaders who will gladly betray the constitutions of those Western countries.

    That is an empty concept and recent history proves the virtual IRRELEVANCE of whether Muslims are the majority of voters or have the majority of politicians in their pocket.

    Think back, sir, to 9-11. A tiny commando team of Jihadis attacked the Pentagon, the World Trade Towers and pulled it off against the greatest military might in history (USA).

    The stock markets crashed and became unstable. Domestic and Int'l travel was brought to a standstill. Many other disruptive forces were similarly unleashed across the culture and financial echelons.

    Each Jihadi attack since then has triggered a version of the same.

    Islamic terrorists are only limited by their imagination and by access to weapons of mass destruction in order to fully de-stabilize the West. Can any sane person alive not imagine how many plots there must be in progress by Islamic terrorists across the globe--including all their clandestine efforts to buy the technical resources to CONSTRUCT a nuclear weapon and place one in the middle of NYC, CHICAGO, LA, WASHINGTON DC, BOSTON, PHILADELPHIA, HOUSTON, PHOENIX, DALLAS, et al...

    This is not a war with sizes of marching armies being matched and compared.

    Neither is this a war being fought to bring about new laws.

    The war is already in full gear.

    The war is the REMOVAL of all common sense DEFENSE MEASURES of human life and liberty against jihadis and other terrorist organizations. It's already happening, there are "sanctuary cities" and "sanctuary states" now that refuse to prosecute multiple-felony committing violent criminals.

    The war is already in full swing with urban mayors ordering their police forces to "Stand Down!" while BLM, ANTIFA and other terrorist organizations shut down public roads, facilities and burn entire areas of commerce down.

    We know that the jihadi war has even entered the theater of conversation and the written word--making it a "hate crime" to voice opposition to Jihadis murdering innocent victims.

    Just as the war has begin to dismantle the society's defenses against criminal and terrorist attacks, it simultaneously is dismantling the individual's defenses, by DENYING them the right to speak or even think or disagree with leftist doctrine.

    The reduction and eradication of all DEFENSES (e.g. a border wall) is the core weapon of choice by leftist radicals, ANTIFA, BLM, ISIS, TALIBAN and all other terrorist organizations. They know they stand no chance militarily vs. the USA, so they fight where they can win vast stretches of territory. It is mainly the ground called FREE SPEECH & RIGHT TO DEFEND ONESELF. That last one is why the police are under a constant barrage of attacks...the radical left is systematically trying to take away law enforcement's legitimacy and power to defend the streets and even defend themselves when under attack by a gun wielding felon.

    The Left and the radical Islamics, alike, know how easily the Western mind is played, manipulated and coerced into behavior that is fine-tuned to help unleash waves of illegals, jihadis and felons on the culture; in so doing, to overwhelm it and make people cry out for a "solution!" to all the chaos. Of course the chaos is a controlled fire being set and managed by the terrorists themselves.

    The only thing really preventing the Jihadi terrorist from turning the USA into a post-apocalyptic world in free-fall is just a dozen or so nuclear devices being set off in the biggest ten cities.

    There are other things terrorists could do even without a nuclear weapon in their arsenal, that would be equally debilitating major US cities, but I will not mention any of those here.

    I better end this rant soon, it's already way too long. But I'll just add one more short note to something else you stated:
    There are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. They have always maintained that the jihadi extremists represent only a tiny fraction of that number. So! Does any rational person alive not know that if 1.8 billion Muslims wanted to terminatedly rid themselves of terrorist jihadis within their ranks, that they could easily and quickly done so with devastating finality?

    If 1.8 billion people didn't want terrorists to terrorize, then Muslims would have blown the whistle and testified against all those instigating Mullahs and Mosques.

    1.8 billion Muslims could cripple the entire jihadi underground army of murderers by turning off their funding sources, attacking their headquarters, killing their soldiers and re-indoctrinating all Muslims to take PRO-ACTIVE steps to smoke out and destroy that toxic virus trying to conquer and enslave the world, whilst murdering all non-believers along the way.

    The reason Jihadi terror has prospered is that the 1.8 billion Muslims turn a blind eye to it and cynically USE the sociopathic violence and threats of violence as a bargaining chip in their negotiations for international trade and political concessions.
    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
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  14. Enthetan

    Enthetan Mutant

    Do you think the majority of Scientologists approve of gang bang sec checking, involuntary confinement, and all the other abuses? Maybe they wouldn't, but their opinions are irrelevant unless they are willing to ACT against the abusers. But they won't, because the people most guilty of abuse, are the people who define what Scientology is, and define who is or isn't to be considered a Scientologist in good standing.

    Same deal with Islam. Until such point as the majority renounce Islam, and physically toss the violence-preaching clerics out of the mosques, then they are all complicit.
     
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  15. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    And for anyone still wondering about your last paragraph, and others' claims that "left wing politicians" purposely PREVENT intelligence and law enforcement from detecting terrorist attacks before they happen---and who think this is some kind of deranged "right wing vast conspiracy" of lies to besmirch democrats. LOL

    How about the terrorist bomber that blew up their suicide vest in NYC in the last 24 hours.

    NYC, as in Mayor De Blasio, who SHUT DOWN surveillance of radical Islamic mosques and clerics within New York City. Because it was "racist".

    Yet, today De Blasio sprinted over to the scene of the crime to reassure the city's 8.6 million residents that he cared deeply about getting to the bottom of the mystery of "WHAT HAPPENED?!!" De Blasio makes a huge cynical show (to voters) that he is "investigating" the "reason" it happened so that it can be "prevented" in the future. Yes, the exact sociopathic politician who made it a safe sanctuary city for Muslim terrorists to operate unimpeded by law enforcement, is the same sociopathic politician who stands in front of the camera with figuratively blood-stained hands, which he wrings while fretting the impossibility of stopping terrorism against the people who elected him to protect them.

    Yes, that IS how insane left wing radical politicians like De Blasio, Obama and others are.

    How would an insane left wing radical politician answer this question: WHAT SHALL WE DO WITH THE WORLD'S LEADING SPONSOR OF ANTI-WESTERN HATRED, HATE CRIMES AND GLOBAL TERRORISM?"

    ANSWER: Give them 150 billion dollars (untraceable cash) and a free pass to create nuclear weapons. Thanks, Barack Obama.

    It may seem inconceivable to many on the left (due to the left's constant chest-thumping affirmations about their "humanitarian" values) that many of the left's leaders think nothing of leading their voters to slaughter--as long as THEY can remain in power and enriched.

    .
     
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  16. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Good point.

    Mimsey
     
  17. cleared cannibal

    cleared cannibal Silver Meritorious Patron

    Here is a survey of Muslim Americans about this topic. Looks like 15-20% agree with radical islam.

    http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy....nline-Survey-of-Muslims-Topline-Poll-Data.pdf
     
  18. anon1

    anon1 Patron

    I'm sorry but this is the funniest thing I have read all year coming from an American!!!!! Having lived for many years in Cali, Boston, France and England and settling now in Copenhagen I can honestly laugh wholeheartedly at this.

    The American mentality is so funny. So insular. It's no wonder Scientology does better over there than anywhere else in the world.
     
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  19. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    Pray tell . . . .
     
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  20. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    LOL

    Yes, I have "the American mentality", making me "so funny" and "so insular". Awesome argument!

    Jeez, that was a fun debate, but sadly now it's over so quickly. You totally annihilated my post without even having to use one specific! Ingenious rhetorical skills! LOL

    I especially like your thunderingly compelling logic that since you spent a lot of time in Europe, that makes you the infallible expert on Europeans. However there are a couple diminutive debating deficiencies in making such a definitive declaration:

    1) History proves that proximity (alone) to Europeans does not guarantee any favorable result when attempting to understand and predict their behavior. Let's take the infamous case of the deafening cheers that erupted in 1938 when British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain returned home and made a glorious speech about the "peace pact" he successfully entered into that bore Herr Hitler's signature on behalf of Nazi Germany! How elated and proud he was that his appeasement concessions to Hitler (e.g. ceding Czechoslovakia to Germany) had guaranteed peace. Chamberlain did not rely on the "funny" and "insular" British "mentality". He did not rely on the "American mentality". Neither did he rely on the "European Mentality" Instead, Chamberlain traveled straight to Berlin and met in person with Adolph Hitler!! Therefore he knew. He was the expert because he was there, right? And that's why adoring Europeans gave Chamberlain untold ovations when he announced that the signed pact guaranteed "PEACE IN OUR TIME!" Just like Scientologists with their bragging rights about "TOTAL KNOWINGNESS" and "KNOWING HOW TO KNOW", the pre-WWII Europeans were also the last to KNOW.​

    2) This part gets kind of embarrassing (for you). If your logical basis for asserting superior knowledge of Europeans is that you spent a lot of time visiting and/or living in Europe, that's a really, really, really bad way to try to make a compelling argument against a person like me. Because since I was a teenager, I extensively traveled, worked and lived in Europe with family, relatives and a house there. Whoa, that really sucks for your argument, doesn't it? LOL​


    HELPFUL DEBATING TIP: Do a clay demo why "facts" are better than making shit up.

    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
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