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Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Karen#1, Jan 9, 2016.
Hmmmm...it certainly missed a withhold, no?
OK, but while there is no doubt that these incidents would likely constitute Felony Child Endangerment (in the U.S.) now, the question is whether that would have been so at the time they occurred (1968-1972 ?).
Michael A. Hobson
ex-Sea Org Member and Declared SP
Well, the original post I quoted from was posted back in 2013, and at that point the attorney was in his 44th year of practicing Business and Family Law, which would have meant he began practicing back around 1969, so he's not unfamiliar with how the law has changed over the years.
And if you look back at the original post: (bolding added by me)
"He also said that if the person that committed the offense was not a parent, close Relative or Legal Guardian of the child they would invariably be viewed by and dealt with more sternly and harshly by the Judicial System; that the Statutes re: Child Endangerment and Abuse haven’t changed as much as some might think…but, the enforcement of those Statutes by Law Enforcement and Jurists has changed significantly."
Given that International Maritime law would have applied I've got no idea as to what would have happened had such a case gone to trial back at that time, but I was just showing some contrast between the actual law (that would apply within U.S. jurisdictions) and Clay Pigeon's claims that it is not real child abuse, or his most recent post:
"...the chain locker is LIGHT, MILD, and predictably HARMLESS child abuse; by FORENSIC standard MISDEMEANOR and not FELONY abuse..."
Note, the attorney kept using the age range of 8-17 (give or take a year or two) when indicating what the legal consequences would be, but children younger than 8 were tossed in the chain locker as well, including Derek Greene who was 4. I presume that this would make it even worse for any defendant charged with a crime of child endangerment.
The attorney also indicated that the law recognized not just physical injuries, but injuries to the mental health of these children as well.
Also note, the chain locker incidents were only just one aspect of child abuse on the Apollo; there's MUCH more. Here's info taken from an affidavit filed during the Tonja Burden v. CoS California case. While it contains data as concerning a child tossed in the chain locker, it addresses other types of child abuse as well:
"At the age of 13, she signed a billion-year contract to join the Sea Org. She lived apart from her parents. She went to live on the Apollo. "On many occasions I ironed through the night, finishing at 6:00 am. I then started washing the next morning's clothing. On occasion I worked three or four days without sleep. I fell asleep at the ironing board with a hot iron in my hand. My senior, 'Doreen' Gilliam, 'caught' me sleeping and yanked my head off the board. She ordered me to run laps and assigned me a condition of 'Doubt.' ... Aboard the ship, I received a Telex from Peter Albert, who was the Continental Justice Chief, FOLO. The Telex informed me my father had been declared an SP (Suppressive Person). They said he was a 'plant,' a spy within Scientology. I began crying and asked to leave, telling them I could convince my father to return to Scientology. Dede Riesdorf, the 'Super Cargo' of our 'org', would not permit me to leave. I explained I wanted to leave and reunite with my mom and dad, but she would not permit this. She told me to 'disconnect' from my parents because my parents were SP's. Disconnection meant no more communication with my parents. ... On a number of occasions, I saw people placed in the 'chain lockers' of the boat on direct orders of Hubbard. These lockers were small, smelly holes, covered by grates where the chain for the anchor was stored. I saw one boy held in there for 30 nights, crying and begging to be released. He was only allowed out to clean the bilges where the sewer and refuse of the ship collected. …"
well Birdy, you know what 'they' say: " It takes one to know one".
Pass on Trolling 101.
What she said ^
( deleted )
So has there been any kind of Tally of the # of Psychotic breaks that have occurred?
A list ?
Going back to Part I of this thread we're over 1000 posts, many of which include stories of psychotic breaks, and those are just incidents known about by the handful of people who post onto this board. The real number has got to be at least way up in the hundreds, but more likely into the thousands.
I remember hearing about a number of incidents during the years I was in that I've not posted about, as I don't recall enough of the details, as far as names, dates, etc. Back at that time (during the 80's) I just believed it to be business as usual, nothing that "standard tech" couldn't handle.
Well on the Apollo they never were children, they were adults in small bodies. Just ask hubbard.
I feel some of the comments in this thread are getting lost in the weeds quibbling over the technicalities and legalese of PTS Type III handlings. First of all, what we are discussing is incarceration pure and simple. There are variations on the theme - locked in a chain locker on a ship, tied to a chain link fence in a boiler room at Flag, locked in a chain link utility room or the windowless incinerator room in the basement of Big Blue, The SP Hole at Int. Like Jesse Prince you can be summarily hauled off and locked up. The RPF and the RPF's RPF might or might not be under lock and key but they are so closely guarded that it is still a form of incarceration. You don't need to have what we would characterize as a psychotic break. According to HCO PL 7 December 1976 LEAVING AND LEAVES, wanting to leave is enough for them to believe that you a Suppressive Person which is essentially a Scientology euphemism for psychotic.
Under the guise of removing your psychological effects from overts and withholds (crimes and secrets) which are causing you to want to leave or be critical of Scientology, they don't want to let you leave unless you complete sec-checks (very intrusive e-metered interrogations) which also provide them with a form of confession and documentation that supports their position that you behaved criminally or irrationally. Sometimes this may take a few hours but we are hearing where people are being subjected to this for many months or possibly even years.
Part of formally being a Scientologist and especially a Sea Org member is signing waivers and agreements that technically give them the right to incarcerate you and to deny you rights to refuse or have access to other recourse. You may also sign DNAs for between 20 - 100k to not discuss what was done to you and Security Guards and other staff who participate in the incarceration also sign these NDAs - which would help explain why we don't see many former Scientology Security personnel talking about the role they played directly or indirectly in these incarcerations. Part of the process is to limit communication. You are not to be spoken to except under strict controls. You may not be released unless it is authorized by your Case Supervisor. The CS is low on the hierarchy and subject to arbitrary decisions by superiors all the way to the top, that being LRH or DM. You can expect to have no phone, get no mail, no lawyer, your family may not know where you are or be able to see you. The place where you are being held is probably away from other staff and public, probably where yells and screams cannot be heard. As in Scott Campbell and Lisa McPherson's stories you may be sedated. The doctor providing any drugs or treating you will probably be a Scientologist or so loyal to the Church that the Church trusts their conduct to protect the Church more than you. I wonder how such records would be kept and if the subject is accorded any HIPAA rights. You have probably signed an agreement that your PC folders and other records are Church property and do not belong to you. Other staff are instructed not to discuss what they know about people being subjected to some form of incarceration such as this and just asking about it will get them in trouble. They are taught that government agencies, the police, non-Scientology doctors are enemies of Scientology and they must protect the Church's PR Area Control. Any Scientology Hubbard's Communication Office Division has the authority per Scientology policy to declare "HCO Call Order" whereby any and all staff are expected to help HCO handle an emergency or threat - which may include someone trying to leave, cause disruption or in their interpretation having a psychotic break.
To any reasonable person it should be clear that the history of restraining people in Scientology set precedents for a long series of unpredictable outcomes that lead to the circumstances surrounding Lisa McPherson's death. If you defend or support this kind of behavior then you support the possibility that eventually something completely random and tragic will happen. You have to be uninformed, willingly in denial, deluded, subjugated, a criminal or mentally disturbed to defend this behavior.
Even on the RPF there is still some freedom of movement, albeit with a twin or under security watch. You might be able to make a break for it, jump ship, reach out to a passerby or police for help. You are still exercising some kind of control over your life and behavior. We are told the RPF is voluntary and to the extent a person doesn't try to escape this may be true. But this isn't an option under a PTS Type III Babywatch or Chain Locker situation.
Hubbard ranted against the abuses of psychiatry alluding to the classic examples of Bedlam while creating his very own version of it under everyone's noses, including the watchful eyes of the FBI and the IRS. This should be terrifying to any rational person, that this can be permitted in this day and age.
People can try to explain the Scientology mindset behind this to put it into perspective but anyone who tries to defend or minimize it loses all respect and credibility from me.
That is a distinct possibility...
You take a look at the black and white BBC interview with that wholesome but dweebish nerd of an interviewer and there's a point where asks something about religion that makes Elron suddenly VERY uncomfortable in his chair and you see his gears start whirling inside his skull 'cause he can't just sit down again so he "casually" wanders ver and leans on the mantlepiece
And any auditor worth his salt MUST recognize an unmistakable missed w/h
And, of course, MUST shut their yaps about it if they know what's good for them
No doubt several things I've posted on this board are un-fucking-believable
Probably top of the list would be my claim at the end of August 2007 I commandeered six live nukes from Minot AFB
Those nukes did move and the story can be googled
The Air Force court martialed 69 airmen...
Thus demonstrating they had no idea who the one responsible person was
OK just to test the validity of that, who was the youngest Eagle Scout ever?
May be there are times when human beings 's life consist of past ''record'' true or false.
it might be a way to keep alive sens of proud, accomplishement, social value, especially when aging or disabled.
It's probably a normal human tendancy and a way to reconnect with life as it was then.
Although some people (like LRH) fabricated several life history that never existed...which is more meeting with personnality disease criteria.
Janis' story about being forcefully detained against her will by Hubbard belongs here.
Yes, it does. I was going to link to it in this thread but you beat me to it.
In Janis's case she didn't suffer a psychotic break. She just wanted to leave the Sea Org, and so the Type III handling was used on her because that was a way to imprison her and keep her from leaving.
Right, this is SOP.
Her mother was dying and neglected, it was covered up and she was lied to by the people she trusted the most. She had become a security risk, Hubbard noticed her BIs (Bad Indicators) and she had to be run through the RPF gauntlet to get her head straight around Hubbard.
Scientologists, especially public Scientologists read all this policy about ethics gradients and think there is some kind of safe, standard internal judicial procedure for respecting their rights and avoiding the use of "heavy ethics" like simply observing something without comment, sending someone to Qual for instructional correction, writing an Ethics Chit, an Interview, then a Hearing, a Board of Investigation, A Committee of Evidence and procedures for Petitioning for Redress, or Arbitration and things like Amnesty.
It's all just bullshit for the naive. This story is exactly how it really is coming straight from Hubbard. They can define "psychotic" any way they want to suit their purposes and summarily imprison you. Then they find a scapegoat to declare an SP and blame everything on them to cover the bad PR - wash, rinse, repeat.
This is the true essence of Scientology. Complete stripping of individuality and freedom.
Many ex-public know from first hand experience and observations about this very true nature of Scientology
most of ex-staff know from first hand experience and observations about this very true nature of $cientology
Almost all ex-SO know from first hand experience and observations about this very true nature of $cientology
Thus, I would say that one knows the very true essence of $cientology when he encounters with it, and gets out of the bubble to really get it and that HE IS NOT the faulty one , somewhere on the road, when he has been stripped of his individuality, his freedom and deeply broken in all possible ways (since the ends justify the means...)
Correct. In Scientology, this realization about life and livingness is what we refer to as "A Major Stable Win".
What I find really astounding about these kinds of stories is how completely consistent and confirming they are with my personal experience. There continue to be more of them that I have not seen. From day 1 this is the Sea Org that I knew. I wasn't on the ships but on land roommates, co-workers, well known people that you respected - any could disappear over night only to reappear on the RPF, unable to speak to you unless spoken to, retreating to some segregated restricted berthing area at the end of their day, constantly under guard or close supervision, disparaged in a goldenrod issue with a list of vague offenses that sounded like something out of a frat house Inquisition. All the policy had this high talk about Scientology Ethics and Justice. Our rights and faith in Ron, the Church and it's mission were respected with judicial recourse and procedure such as hearings and comm-evs. You quickly learn that that is all for show. People need to understand that this IS Scientology. Hubbard didn't skip a beat between doing this on the ships and doing it on land. What you are witnessing isn't just a bad organizational phase that will pass after much sacrifice and hard work. Most of us didn't know about the chain locker and what happened on the ships and those who were there and not smart enough to get out didn't talk about it. The ships were just the testing laboratory. He got away with it there. To the Old Man the experiment worked. It is sickening to see people try to minimize this, especially public Scientologists who have never seen the inner workings of the Sea Org and don't want to acknowledge it. If the RPF and the RPF's RPF are possible then losing all rights and freedom with a PTS Type III lockup was always next. Then the criteria for subjecting a person to a PTS Type III lockup would be reduced to a vindictive or PR saving whim. To honestly be a Scientologist you have to consciously support this because every dollar you spend on it and every time you promote it you encourage and reward this kind of culture.
This is November of 1968! The Sea Org was established on August 12, 1967 so within 16 months of it's creation, and this isn't necessarily the first instance, Hubbard is implementing the chain locker treatment, not on big tough guys but on a mother with an infant. That should tell us that the Sea Org was always just an escalation in a much larger very sadistic plan that he just held back on up to that point for lack of an isolated environment.
Scientology - it's always worse than you think.
I remember in particular the case of Mrs. Pat Lipsitz which occurred in October/November 1968, just before I went to America. She was an English lady and, I believe, had lived somewhere near Saint Hill Manor. She had undergone punishment by being put into the chain-locker and separated from her 18 month old baby. The baby may even have been younger. When Mrs. Lipsitz emerged from the chain-locker she was in a state of terror and immediately grabbed her child and left the ship and ran through the Port Authorities. At that time I had been given the post of Chaplain of the ship. I was requested, in that capacity, to go and track down Mrs. Lipsitz and bring her back to the ship. I said I would do so only on condition that no further punishment would be inflicted against this lady and that she would not be parted from her baby. This assurance was given to me. I accordingly then left the ship and ultimately traced Mrs. Lipsitz to the English Consulate. After speaking with me she agreed to return to the vessel. To my horror when she did so she was immediately separated from her baby and once more put into the chain-locker.