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Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Gadfly, Dec 22, 2009.
if ou compare scientology to bowling most people will take bowling
I don't blame you for feeling that way one bit Adam
Me too Onthepes, and Adam. Fortunately (or not so as far as being stuck in such a thing) it seems that this particular cult, the one of LRon that is, isn't so much into the 'group rapture' thingy, but the scary aspect that I've tried to point out in numerous postings over the years based on extensive reading of all sides, and made painfuly obvious by so many ex's and families of victims, is that cult kills you slowly as it bleeds you dry; as your money runs out, if you should become more frail, stats are down, PTS liability, what-ever the excuse, old, infirm, or just a silly product of Hubbard that becomes more useless with age, they will let you die (in a multitude of ways). And... you'll like it!
Just 'meat bodies', living on a useless prison planet......... ('You don't need all that filthy money, we can sell you Eternity!') :giantfrikkenfacepalmbykid'scollegefundsmiley:
Breed fanatisism? (as per necro'd OP) Oh ya gotta figure so~ nothing, but nothing, including the cult's own spewings over the years, says anything but total 'freedom-fail'.
It's just the way I see it, my humble opinion, no amount of nail polish or glitter is going to make ths particular pig of Ron's smell any better.
It stinks of 1984 and worse.
Thanks Mick. I genuinely find that reassuring. No sarcasm intended. I do worry about what will happen to Scientologists when their bubble finally pops.
don't worry un-necessarily, it is what ESMB, OCBM, etc. are all about after all, the gritty evidence is all around, and many a good heart telling of the rippings. (and the healings too btw )
" Boy, you better maul the case folders of staff. You have a suppressive aboard. Maybe six.”
Yah, but in the Rhodesia thing LRH mentions, he says the exact opposite. I'm sorry I'm not Veda and can pull up the reference. Maybe somebody else knows.
A friend recently got really sick, really sick. He is 15 years my age of 50. My friend was in debt, and needed major treatment. And it took him several months to get over it. And he still needs to work because he is in debt.
Now, having lived life around other scientologists in the same boat. And of the same age, and them being in debt due to going up the bridge.
Why, I says to myself this is nuts. I do not want to be in debt and get sick at the age of fucking 65, all the while I'm figuring out how to make a lot of money to go up the bridge. And all the extra money I make above living expenses, why it goes to the bridge. I says to myself this is nuts.
Now these are thoughts I have had in the last 10 months since receiving the deb cook face book message.
So, on another thought, I'm connecting some dots in the PL PTS to middle class. So, I'm thinking, now that I can think outside the enclosed box of scientology pl's and hcob's, that that PL was created to get members to keep them donating and their retirement money and savings are not important, wants important is going up the bride to total freedom. Oh boy, what a con.
And then, you see, I listened to the Aaron Saxon you tube video's today, all 7 parts. And it's OMG.
And in the videos, Aaron mentions about thought control, and even deeper than that, being not even having the thought to begin with. He likens it to even worse than 1984.
But, I got to thinking, from el ron, there is freedom amongst barriers. And in listening to Aaron today, boy oh boy, SO members only freedom would be going to bed and dreaming one could say, but even that is suppressed. Oh boy, I never realized it was really bad. Because it is so hidden from my public view.
I think people, for the most part, are amazingly resilient.
When the bubble pops? Most will just . . . . move on . . . . and live. :confused2:
I agree with Mick. I don't see any sort of Jonestown type mass craziness occurring.
I think it will continue to be a slow to moderate trickle, as people leave, and leave, and leave the Church of Scientology.
I don't know if any critical mass or tipping point will be reached where due to some event or environmental trigger Scientology just suddenly convulses and spasms quickly to a rapid death. But one never knows.
Hopefully the media will continue to unravel an endless stream of ever-increasing Scientology idiocy, and this will help inoculate new people from getting involved.
And, as more and more leave, they will in turn affect others to do so. Maybe there will be a snowball effect, where the momentum really gets going, and maybe not.
Also, the whole Marty Indie movement gives them all a place to go IF and WHEN the Church of Scientology suddenly spirals quickly out of control. See, with Marty being there, the bubble won't really "fully pop", because the "firm and resolute" can modify their delusion a bit and continue with a "kinder gentler" version of Scientology there. And, as long as all the abuse and major nastiness of the organized Church of Scientology disappears, I couldn't really care any less what people want to do in their spare time in their own living rooms studying, talking and practicing some far "milder" version of the subject.
Time will tell, and it does seem like it IS "getting worse" for them with each passing day. In a sense, the genie has been let out of the bottle, and it ain't EVER going back in!
Your reflection on your earlier time track travails (garbed in victimology prose) is a testament to your ongoing failure to understand your own responsibility for showing up in this world at this time on this planet. As an Eternal Spiritual Being. Some would say.
Let me try to help you out here.
Years ago there was a famous experiment done wherein numerous individuals were instructed to inflict an electric shock (read that pain) on another person at the command of an instructor. If my memory serves me correctly (which it always does, me being clear and all) it was an experiment conducted in 1961 by a Yale University professor named Stanley Milgram. Are you familiar with it? If not read up on it, as you are equal to the participants in it, yourself.
The upshot of it being this, it was (and is) Scientology 101, for a certain percentage of any given population in regard to A. the fundamental requirement of being able to be controlled by another, and B. being able to inflict pain on another, on command.
In other words it was a test of human morals where praise & power for oneself, were offered in response to a willingness to create suffering & pain in another.
Quid pro Quo.
Now, some 51 years later, if you were to interview the 'producers of pain in others' their side of the story, they will tell you to a person 'it wasn't my fault'. And or, 'I was tricked'. And or 'the experiement was terrible'. And or "I didn't really realize'. And or, and or, and or, and or, ad infinitum, 'I was the victim'.
Lets kill Professor Milgram.
As a footnote to the Milgram (and the Scientology) human & spiritual experiements, there were many that refused to play along. Though that is where the compatibility ends. As willingly torturing another human being for ones own imaginary-personal gains, is not equal to un-wittingly torturing another spiritual being, for ones own imaginary spiritual gains.
Marty states this:
Just Me | September 30, 2012 at 4:50 pm | Reply
Marty and Mike,
What was Miscavige’s twisted reasoning that caused him to have Pat Broeker watched and tracked 24/7 for over 20 years? What concerned him so much about Broeker’s whereabouts and activities when (so far as I know — which isn’t very far, I’ll admit) he has not tracked anyone else that assiduously or that long?
martyrathbun09 | September 30, 2012 at 5:04 pm | Reply
He has tracked me far more assiduously – even though it will not be for as long, since Miscavige won’t be around for that long.
Just Me | September 30, 2012 at 5:52 pm | Reply
Yeah, but you’re dangerous.
In your last paragraph you described how Hubbard perfectly "imprisoned" the members of his "elite organization" now try to imagine what you would have to endure if you have to live in that "prison" with a severe illness like multiple sclerosis and you will understand what my brother Uwe had to go through from 1988 when he had the first syptoms until he died in 2008
It's interesting. I never accepted the doom & gloom message completely, because I knew too many people who were fine and dandy, and I didn't believe I knew better than them Thus, the urgency wasn't there for me, and whenever they pushed it, I would simply opt to do whatever I wanted to do (take some time off, go smoke a joint, get laid in an auditing room, etc.). Then I'd report myself, later. Apparently, they couldn't convince me that my beliefs and opinions, associations and activities were theirs to control without my agreement. So I was assigned lower conditions almost constantly, which made it impossible to survive on staff, and embarrassing to have to go around doing doubt and liability formulas all the time.
Their control was incomplete, with me, because I came in pretty hard-headed from acid use. I don't trust my own senses, nevermind the opinions of some other dude, no matter how many books he wrote.
After a while, I couldn't make it because in lower conditions you don't get paid, and I damned sure wasn't getting a second job just so that I could go on the crusade they were unsuccessfully selling me. It's a shame! If they'd just sold auditing, without any of the bullshit, I know a lot of people would have left when they didn't obtain godlike powers. I wouldn't have left, likely, if they hadn't fucked with my Will.
I also probably would have stuck around FAR longer of it hadn't been for the fanatical slant to it all.
I was always unwilling to be part of ANY large group. Such groups always seemed to excel at the expense of personal creativity and individuality. I remember saying to my wife once, while in the Sea Org on a post of Flag Rep in Toronto, "as I see it, if you get more than 3 or 4 people in a room together, the politics and group nuttiness quickly manifest." I went onto say, "the only group that I can possibly like is being in a musical band, and even that can be tough". I was talking to her about the endless nutttiness of the Sea Org, and I was in the Sea Org.
I also managed to keep a somewhat "exterior" view of things during it all. I also had done large amounts of LSD! Maybe THAT is the link here? :confused2:
But also, I had studied psychology in college (I double-majored in psych along with electronics engineering). I was one or two courses away from getting a degree in psychology. I did get the degree in EE. Anyway, I had also read lots on my own including Lifton's, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, and Hoffer's The True Believer. I read them before involvement with Scientology. No amount of Scientology indoctrination rendered me in a state where I refused to benefit from the fruits of my own observations. I easily and clearly saw that Scientology did very much function as mind control, right when I was most active and involved within it. Back then I thought that this mind control aspect might have been more of an unwanted but necessary by-product of Scientology, but that view changed with time.
I have always tended to watch myself and my life as if I am in some movie or cartoon. I have tended to be "out of valence" or "exterior" to some degree. And I maintained that all throughout my time in Scientology. But I did very much notice how the behavior of so many other "highly dedicated Scientologists" directly hinged upon how much they agreed with the Three Scientology Beliefs. I also noticed it in myself, to some degree.
To the degree that one refuses to accept these beliefs is the degree to which you will NOT be able to be controlled. But if you accept them and adopt them as true, then you are FUCKED!
Yes, I agree. It's a game of inches. The more you give, the more you are taken in. If you stop and stand on your own, you're blasted and so are your supports. Best to do that before you're too far over the edge. I think if I'd truly believed that my ex-wife would stay with them, I wouldn't have walked away. I thought we loved each other, and so I walked away thinking she would have to come with me. I was wrong. If I hadn't had that confidence, I would probably still be there, today. Some illusions are useful!
And sometimes it can take as few as one. \
Yeah, scepticism of groups is always warranted. As it seems to me, there is something apparently "hardwired" in humans as social primates that undercuts their individual capacity for reason when they are seeking approval from or asserting membership in a group.
Mark A. Baker
If ever an old thread/post deserved a bump, I do love ya Gadfly, when I go back in the archives I am never ceased to be amazed at how many times the thoughts get repeated.
Its like, um, the most stable thing about scientology is the points of its own faults and critics evaluations.
Hubbard hurt people. A lot of people.
and it is still going on.
For the sake of your own sanity, if you are a CoS reading this, please get away
There's a typo on page 26, 3rd line down 'vase' should be 'case'
Your posts on this thread are brilliant. They sum up the mindset perfectly, and should be "required reading"
for anyone wishing a full understanding of Scientology.
You are a treasure for this message board.
I agree that the/my analysis of the mindset in this thread is very accurate and useful for anyone trying to grasp how and why involvement with Scientology "screws with ones mind".