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Scientology, Ron Hubbard and Hypnosis

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
I was interested to read recently that Franz Mesmer, early in his career, gained notoriety by debunking the work of Johann Joseph Gassner, a Catholic priest who was a noted exorcist. Mesmer claimed his cures had nothing to do with spirits and could be explained by "animal magnetism."

"In 1775, Mesmer was invited to give his opinion before the Munich Academy of Sciences on the exorcisms carried out by Johann Joseph Gassner (Gaßner), a priest and healer who grew up in Vorarlberg, Austria. Mesmer said that while Gassner was sincere in his beliefs, his cures resulted because he possessed a high degree of animal magnetism. This confrontation between Mesmer's secular ideas and Gassner's religious beliefs marked the end of Gassner's career as well as, according to Henri Ellenberger, the emergence of dynamic psychiatry."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Mesmer
Well, good for old Mr. Mesmer is what I say. Anyone who debunks witch doctors, catholic priests and the like is deserving of praise IMO, although I'm not totally convinced by his 'animal magnetism' hypothesis.
 

Gib

Crusader
Demonic possession features in quite a few religions. It's mentioned in the new testament for a start. Then there are these evangelicals you see on tv ridding people of evil spirits, and there are many more religions that it is a feature of. There must be money to be made from exorcism, that's all I can say.
reminds me of the movie the exorcist.


Very frightening movie. Made the box office with lots of bucks.

Hubbard used the fear tactic a lot, he used it in dianetics, ie if you don't erase your engrams, you are a ticking time bomb waiting to have an engram restimulated and you can go nuts at any time.

He used the fear tactic in the ot levels, if you are now clear, you must get up to OT3, the wall of fire.

It was all story telling of rhetoric and fear.

Hey, wait a minute, didn't Hubbard write a book called "fear"? (maybe should be classified as sources of dianetics and scientology).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_(Hubbard_novella)

https://www.midlandisd.net/cms/lib01/TX01000898/Centricity/Domain/129/MILLER RHETORICAL.pdf
 
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JustSheila

Crusader
Maybe that's true for some, but the reason I've been trying to convey what happened to me is because I'm certain I wasn't alone ... some of us were convinced to play along long after we started to have doubts due to what I keep calling the glue. It had nothing to do with hypnotism and yes, I do know hubbard studied it and I do agree that the nasty old bastard would have used it if he could, I just don't think he was that clever though.

How come we are not constantly reminding each other that he ALSO studied (and definately used) sales tek and that perhaps that is why so many of us were sucked down the rabbit hole?

I just think some people were very fast to agree with Arnie that they were hypnotised because it feels better than admitting they were conned (the superior intelligence thingy probably helped!).

I don't need an excuse ... I don't feel less of a person because I was conned and silly, on the contrary it made me the person I now am and the person I now am does not just agree with every proposition put to me and hasn't for a very long time.
All really good points. I just don't see it as one or the other... hypnosis techniques are intertwined with the sales techniques, some more lightweight than others. We're all different. I love your posts on this thread, because you are so clear about what hooked you and demonstrate our individual differences so well.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
I expect most are still in shock when they are pushed into their first solo session and that happens as soon as the theory is completed. There is no time to really think of anything much except perhaps that something feels very wrong.

Remember that OT3 is the first very real step into blind acceptance (evaluation) and for many (it can't just have been me) the idea of getting into the solo auditing room ... ALONE ... where you can gather your thoughts was probably the main goal, but yes, becoming convinced that BT's existed may have been easy for some, just as being convinced (or not) of the existence of anything spiritual in any religion is.

As mentioned earlier I tried to do the process but found it so ridiculous that I just sat there for around 5 weeks and didn't know what to do, it was agonising, but I wrote up the 'sessions' and played along, I felt I had no choice ... eventually I wrote a note to the Senior CS and got a nasty one back ordering me to keep going and making me wrong for daring to communicate.

:(

That CS note helped me to make my next decision though, it made me get a grip.

I waited until later that day when I was well away from the AO and rang someone from home who was highly trained (and had done OT3) and very carefully made it clear that I felt I had 'reached the EP' and was being forced to continue. I made sure to sound basically happy. Luckily, he helped me out (bless him) by giving me a fantastic hubbard reference about overrun which I read the following day and then immediately referred the Senior CS to (that made me even more popular, not).

The CS had no choice but to let me go.

I attested the following day but we all knew that the only thing different about me was that I had morphed into an actress who was playing the part so she could get the hell out ... (undeclared) and that it was highly unlikely they would ever see me again. They were right about that. The tech team watched me very carefully at graduation and the reges made it hell for me to get through the routing-out form, but they do that to everyone so I knew that was coming.

I have never been so happy to get on a plane and head home, the next day I threw my certs and meter into the bottom of a drawer and never looked at them again until years later when I slung them in the rubbish bin along with everything else cult related (another great day).

The cult reminds me of domestic abuse ... all of the stages are the same. Becoming besotted (you can call that hypnotised if you like) happens very early in the relationship but gradually includes control, threats and abuse. Cognitive dissonance plays a huge part, but it is that hidden relationship glue that actually keeps people entrapped. People who are being abused have usually woken up long ago from the besotted stage but remain in the relationship due to the threats of loss or further abuse.
Awesome post. So much insight, just brilliant. :bighug:

"The hidden relationship glue" says it all. I have nothing to add. What a great summary of the whole experience.
 

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
coincidentally I was watching this just now - around the 18min mark Jon says hypnosis induces euphoria....
Thanks for posting that, @rose10. I read Jon's book "A Piece of Blue Sky," which used to be available on the web (I think it's been taken down because Jon wants people to actually buy the book), but I believe this is the first time I've heard him speak.

There is something strange at 21:38, though: Jon shows the well-known picture of LRH auditing tomatoes and says it was taken in Queens, NY in 1972. That's incorrect, and Jon himself says so, here:

ATACK: The tomato photos were taken in the greenhouse at Saint Hill Manor in the early years, between 1959 and the UK government’s decision that The Hub was an ‘undesirable alien’ (how true!).
https://tonyortega.org/2013/02/02/scientology-mythbusting-with-jon-atack-the-tomato-photo/

The Mark V e-meter (some call it "the wooden box" meter) became the standard in 1965. That's an older meter Hubbs has got. That dates it before 1965.

The picture is sometimes ascribed to 1968 because The Daily Mail published it in 1968, but even that is too late. Hubbs was at sea by then (literally as well as figuratively).
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I am still wondering if there was hypnosis involved or not there

There was certainly mind manipulation, but is there an obvious example LRH purposely used Hypnosis in scientogy processes ???

Objectives???
Tr's ???

How about redifining all meaningful words into totally new dehumanized concepts preparing one to become a Rondroid????

I see manipulation but what would be the difference between mind manipulation and Hypnosis??? Is there an obvious evidence we were submitted to hypnosis?? Let's see it in a specific process design???

Édit: I apologize for some of my incomprehensible posts ..my smartphone reconvert all words I write, either in french or frenglish...thus before I post I must edit almost all words and it' long and I miss some here and there. Thank you for your patience.:oops:

See this unedited version here:
I apologie for some le my incompréhensible posts...my smartphone reconverti all d'ores either in french or frenglish..thus, before I post, I must édit almost all d'ores and it's long and I miss some here and there. Thank toi for your patience.
:eek:

Just to say I am not drunk!:D
 
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Gib

Crusader
I am still wondering if there was hypnosis involved or not there

There was certainly mind manipulation, but is there an obvious example LRH purposely used Hypnosis in scientogy processes ???

Objectives???
Tr's ???

How about redifining all meaningful words into totally new dehumanized concepts preparing one to become a Rondroid????

I see manipulation but what would be the difference between mind manipulation and Hypnosis??? Is there an obvious evidence we were submitted to hypnosis?? Let's see it in a specific process design???

Édit: I apologize for some of my incomprehensible posts ..my smartphone reconvert all words I write, either in french or frenglish...thus before I post I must edit almost all words and it' long and I miss some here and there. Thank you for your patience.:oops:

See this unedited version here:
I apologie for some le my incompréhensible posts...my smartphone reconverti all d'ores either in french or frenglish..thus, before I post, I must édit almost all d'ores and it's long and I miss some here and there. Thank toi for your patience.
:eek:

Just to say I am not drunk!:D

I am still wondering if there was hypnosis involved or not there

There was certainly mind manipulation, but is there an obvious example LRH purposely used Hypnosis in scientogy processes ???

Objectives???
Tr's ???

How about redifining all meaningful words into totally new dehumanized concepts preparing one to become a Rondroid????

I see manipulation but what would be the difference between mind manipulation and Hypnosis??? Is there an obvious evidence we were submitted to hypnosis?? Let's see it in a specific process design???

Édit: I apologize for some of my incomprehensible posts ..my smartphone reconvert all words I write, either in french or frenglish...thus before I post I must edit almost all words and it' long and I miss some here and there. Thank you for your patience.:oops:

See this unedited version here:
I apologie for some le my incompréhensible posts...my smartphone reconverti all d'ores either in french or frenglish..thus, before I post, I must édit almost all d'ores and it's long and I miss some here and there. Thank toi for your patience.
:eek:

Just to say I am not drunk!:D
I think Mike Rinder did a great summary of what happened in his post here:

https://www.mikerindersblog.org/the-real-story-of-the-freewinds/

I'll quote a section:

"Hubbard promised immortality and spiritual freedom as one progresses up his Bridge. For scientologists, Hubbard’s “technology” holds the answers to life, including promising you can be cured of the causes of all illness and disease on OT V (New Era Dianetics for OTs or “NOTs”). OT’s believe that they will be given the keys to move into their next life with TOTAL recall of this life. They are sold lies. That is why many who finally reach OT VIII leave. They realize they have made it to the top and it is not what was promised and hoped for during their ascent."

Now, I am married to a OT8 and know many other OT8's who are not doing anything in present time. I do have a unique perspective.

However, the question becomes, how come these OT8's are not continuing?

Mike gives the answer in the above quote from his blog.

But, the question becomes how did these people get involved and why did they stay involved?

Was it hypnosis?

NO, it was rhetoric,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric_(Aristotle)

Of note, one should read the section on Book 2 in the link.

Hubbard was a writer, a speech maker thru his recorded lectures, thru his HCOB's & HCO PL's and his advice's.

Hubbard was a story teller, to influence his cause or ideas and used every literally device know to man.
 
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lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Much thanks Gib!
I've seen several discussions you had about Hubbard's rhetoric, here and there, but didn't dig into the subject.
Thus, I will do it within the next days..might provide good explanations

:cool:
 

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
The degree to which Hubbard succeeded in his efforts varied from person to person. I left after 7 years and only made it as far as Dn Clear. Was I hypnotized? No, I don't think I was. I think Hubbard was trying, though
I've thought about this and I'd like to revise my statement above. I think I was hypnotized -- in a light trance -- when running dns, similar to the state you're in when you see hypnagogic images shortly before falling asleep.

I think I may also have been responding to LRH's hypnotic suggestion in 1979 when I decided, along with many others, that I was clear. I remember when the Dn Clear HCOB came out, I read it and thought, "Well, that certainly doesn't apply to me." Someone said to me, "You're probably clear," and I said, "Oh no, not me." But somehow, a few months later, though I'd had no more auditing in the meanwhile, I was completely convinced I was clear! So maybe I was already in a suggestible state and the HCOB acted as a hypnotic suggestion?

How I went from completely convinced I wasn't clear to completely convinced I was with no intervening auditing I find perhaps the most puzzling thing in my scn career. Veda has called this an example of LRH's hypnotic influence on scngsts. Maybe he has something there?
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
I've thought about this and I'd like to revise my statement above. I think I was hypnotized -- in a light trance -- when running dns, similar to the state you're in when you see hypnagogic images shortly before falling asleep.

I think I may also have been responding to LRH's hypnotic suggestion in 1979 when I decided, along with many others, that I was clear. I remember when the Dn Clear HCOB came out, I read it and thought, "Well, that certainly doesn't apply to me." Someone said to me, "You're probably clear," and I said, "Oh no, not me." But somehow, a few months later, though I'd had no more auditing in the meanwhile, I was completely convinced I was clear! So maybe I was already in a suggestible state and the HCOB acted as a hypnotic suggestion?

How I went from completely convinced I wasn't clear to completely convinced I was with no intervening auditing I find perhaps the most puzzling thing in my scn career. Veda has called this an example of LRH's hypnotic influence on scngsts. Maybe he has something there?

Maybe ... or maybe (like many other people back then) you had little to nothing to be 'cleared' of in the first place, finally realised that and assumed that meant you were 'clear'?

Or perhaps it was because you had no more auditing and were able to relax and think straight again without all that messing with your mind and trying to come up with things to satisfy the auditor?

Who knows ... who cares?

People flocked to attest to natural clear when that HCOB was released in the late 70's too (embarrassingly, I was one of them) and apparently the needle reaction at the examiner and my 'cognition' made it so? About ten minutes later I was announced and people were clapping and trying to look happy for me.

Incredible (and ridiculous) ... I was very happy though because it meant there would be no more attempts to audit me. I would be left alone and I was.

I went on to do OT levels a few decades later and nobody tried to tell me I wasn't clear because according to the phenomena needed I still was.

Natural clear was frowned on shortly after the HCOB was released, the cofs had made a big mistake and they quickly realised it but what could they do, there were now so many people attesting to clear as per the HCOB? I believe they quietly pulled the HCOB and carried on.

I presume I'm still crystal clear according to the cofs ... nobody has admitted to cocking up 100's of peoples (non existent) 'cases' with shonky CSing.

:D
 

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
Maybe ... or maybe (like many other people back then) you had little to nothing to be 'cleared' of in the first place, finally realised that and assumed that meant you were 'clear'?

Or perhaps it was because you had no more auditing and were able to relax and think straight again without all that messing with your mind and trying to come up with things to satisfy the auditor?


Who knows ... who cares?

People flocked to attest to natural clear when that HCOB was released in the late 70's too (embarrassingly, I was one of them) and apparently the needle reaction at the examiner and my 'cognition' made it so? About ten minutes later I was announced and people were clapping and trying to look happy for me.

Incredible (and ridiculous) ... I was very happy though because it meant there would be no more attempts to audit me. I would be left alone and I was.

I went on to do OT levels a few decades later and nobody tried to tell me I wasn't clear because according to the phenomena needed I still was.

Natural clear was frowned on shortly after the HCOB was released, the cofs had made a big mistake and they quickly realised it but what could they do, there were now so many people attesting to clear as per the HCOB? I believe they quietly pulled the HCOB and carried on.

I presume I'm still crystal clear according to the cofs ... nobody has admitted to cocking up 100's of peoples (non existent) 'cases' with shonky CSing.

:D
Um, I dunno, Trouble. I wasn't one of the naturals and I didn't take it calmly. I was ecstatic about being clear and in a highly altered state, very "exterior" or whatever that actually was. Higher than I ever was on any drug (for about 2 weeks). I couldn't see how anyone could take it calmly. Although I guess you wouldn't be that excited about attesting to not having something you thought you never had. At the time I doubted those people were really clear, though of course I couldn't say so. That was one of the things that helped to drive me out a couple years later.

As for "who cares?", it still bugs me.

NB: I know now that I'm not clear and never will be, nor do I aspire to be, and it's just fine. Clear and the reactive mind as defined by Hubbard do not exist. There is a subconscious mind which everyone has and always will have, which can be good news as well as bad.
 

Gib

Crusader
Much thanks Gib!
I've seen several discussions you had about Hubbard's rhetoric, here and there, but didn't dig into the subject.
Thus, I will do it within the next days..might provide good explanations

:cool:
oh, it's ok Lotus. I'm trying to explain, but it's really hard to do. I'm not a writer you might say nor one who could get up in front of a crowd and give a lecture or speech.

Hubbard never mentioned the word rhetoric in his lectures as far as I know. There is actually only one place were rhetoric is mentioned and that is in the appendixes of the original dianetics book. Plus Heinlein mentions rhetoric in the Heinlein/Campbell letters that I have provided links for to read. Plus Hubbard mentions rhetoric in his letter to Dean Wilbur. That's what got me interested, you might say hidden. What actually is rhetoric?

Rhetoric is the woof and warp of dianetics and scientology, but only you will you see if you have a understanding of rhetoric,

"The essential foundation or base of any structure or organization; from weaving, in which the warp — the threads that run lengthwise — and the woof — the threads that run across — make up the fabric: “The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence are the warp and woof of the American nation.”

Hubbard did mention woof and warp in a lecture, I believe it was the PDC's. I connected dots. If you understand the "3 means of persuasion", you are free from the bullshit of Hubbard. This more than likely applies to other religions or cults.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Thanks,

I do much appreciate.
The constitution example is a good one though.

The other day I stumbled upon an artical mentionning the mastering of rhetoric by successful politicians; perhaps the same goals to convince people LRH had!

However, it now appears to me that LRH used 3 techniques to catch followers in his web:

  1. rhetoric
  2. sales techniques
  3. suggestion\hypnosis
:cool:
 

Gib

Crusader
Thanks,

I do much appreciate.
The constitution example is a good one though.

The other day I stumbled upon an artical mentionning the mastering of rhetoric by successful politicians; perhaps the same goals to convince people LRH had!

However, it now appears to me that LRH used 3 techniques to catch followers in his web:

  1. rhetoric
  2. sales techniques
  3. suggestion\hypnosis
:cool:
sales techniques and suggestion/hypnosis are both derived from rhetoric.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
@Gib
I found interesting analysis and article about rhetoric and hypnosis. There is also what is called Eriksonian communication.

Some are going in the same direction you do although some argue rhetoric is different than hypnosis:
Rhetoric = persuasion and to convince since hypnosis = implantef beliefs​

However, rhetoric mastering is obvious in the design of $cientology:​
  • Ethos: Ron the master, the acclaimed scientist and de recognized humanitarian​
  • Pathos: get your eternity - don't loose your eternity ( and all other fears)​
  • Logos: A totally redefined vocabulary into a new lingo fitting new beliefs​

It seems to me that if not hypnosis, there is certainly tricks used to target the subconscious since there are tons of new beliefs we adopted...some of them (space opera and implants)art obviously totally wrong non-sense to a critical mind. Were we convinced ( LRH tapes and policies\bulletins) through rhetoric or through implanted beliefs with some hypnosis...( reading your pack in a shocking state??? )

IMHO, LRH definitely used hypnosis tricks( with words, tone voice, metaphors, stories )in his lectures to get his audience in compliance with his affirmations, despite a large amount of non-sense and utterly lies de didn't brought under the critical mind light for analysis purpose..

So, when and how did we loose such common sense and critical mind???

:D




 
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ThetanExterior

Gold Meritorious Patron
A few days ago my 6-year-old grandson told me he could make me say a certain word. I said he couldn't, even though his dad told me he'd won five pounds from his uncle the previous day doing the same thing. Well, I didn't risk any money but I just said he couldn't do it.

So he went through a complex series of questions until I eventually said the word. He tricked me. I think he's a budding LRH.

I got my revenge though. I told him that if he put his hand out in front of him I could make him turn it over without touching him. And I did! But, far from being deflated, he was excited because now he had two tricks to fool people with.
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
A few days ago my 6-year-old grandson told me he could make me say a certain word. I said he couldn't, even though his dad told me he'd won five pounds from his uncle the previous day doing the same thing. Well, I didn't risk any money but I just said he couldn't do it.

So he went through a complex series of questions until I eventually said the word. He tricked me. I think he's a budding LRH.

I got my revenge though. I told him that if he put his hand out in front of him I could make him turn it over without touching him. And I did! But, far from being deflated, he was excited because now he had two tricks to fool people with.
When I was a child I had an uncle who used to play games with me (no, it's not what you think ...). When I was seven or eight years old he'd arrive at our house and put his hand out to me intending for me to shake it - which I did. He'd then squeeze the fuck out of it. When I finally managed to pull my hand away, he'd apologise fulsomely and extend his hand again, promising me he wouldn't hurt me this time. So in the end I'd put my hand out and the bastard would squeeze it again. DOH! We went through this same routine on each of his visits, and he'd con me every time.

Looking back, I can never make up my mind if he was trying to teach me something about life, like not to be gullible and be taken in by people or what, but I've never forgotten those episodes.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
When I was a child I had an uncle who used to play games with me (no, it's not what you think ...). When I was seven or eight years old he'd arrive at our house and put his hand out to me intending for me to shake it - which I did. He'd then squeeze the fuck out of it. When I finally managed to pull my hand away, he'd apologise fulsomely and extend his hand again, promising me he wouldn't hurt me this time. So in the end I'd put my hand out and the bastard would squeeze it again. DOH! We went through this same routine on each of his visits, and he'd con me every time.

Looking back, I can never make up my mind if he was trying to teach me something about life, like not to be gullible and be taken in by people or what, but I've never forgotten those episodes.
Do you want an objective perspective?
Hurting a child is mean. Violating a child's trust at that age is cruel. According to Maslow, this sort of thing can have a huge impact on a child's sense of security and negatively impact a person in adult life.

Your uncle was an asshole.
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
Do you want an objective perspective?
Hurting a child is mean. Violating a child's trust at that age is cruel. According to Maslow, this sort of thing can have a huge impact on a child's sense of security and negatively impact a person in adult life.

Your uncle was an asshole.
Please don't insult members of my family Sheila, you know absolutely nothing about him. As a matter of fact I thought the world of him, he never seriously hurt me, we used to laugh about what he used to do, and before he left he always gave me a nice crisp ten-shilling note.
 
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