Scientology - To criticize and discriminate

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by tr8theta, Aug 10, 2017.

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  1. tr8theta

    tr8theta I Love Kitties

    Hello All,

    I am under the impression that it is safe to express oneself honestly here although I realize that I may be subjecting myself to
    some pretty harsh criticism...which is fine with me. All your opinions, comments, questions, attacks or perhaps even praises are welcome.

    The specific definitions I am using for the two words below (criticize and discriminate) are as follows:

    Criticize - to point out the good and bad parts in something
    Discriminate - to recognize differences between things

    I became a scientologist in 1968 after reading "A New Slant On Life"
    I am a former SO member (1970 to 1982)
    I met LRH and knew and worked with him personally in various aspects.
    First I was on the Flag Ship Apollo and then at the Flag Land Base in Clearwater, Fla
    I was also put into the RPF from which I "properly" routed out (I did not blow)
    Nonetheless, my name is on the list of declared SPs.

    I have been forewarned that there are many ex-scientologists and former SO members who post here who are very much anti-scientology who have personally had bad, or terrible or even horrendous experiences and/or have witnessed others having such.

    I have watched all the Leah Remini episodes and applaud what she is doing to expose the atrocities that have taken place in the past and which continue to occur which have hurt people, ruined relationships, broken up families and which have caused good people to leave SCN and/or the SO - people who originally became involved with high expectations and sincere intentions to do good for themselves, their families and the planet. My heart goes out to ALL who have endured hardship and tremendous disappointment and even worse - imprisonment against ones will - to name a few)

    I have a few questions to ask any and all who read this no matter what your personal experience was and I welcome and appreciate your total honest replies. I will listen and totally respect ALL of them.

    1. In retrospect, at any time while you were actively in SCN and/or the SO) was there any personal experience whatsoever that was enjoyable or positive or which you felt you were the better for it?

    I ask this because considering my entire time in SCN and the SO and all my experiences both PRO and CON or somewhere in between they were overall pretty much okay. I'm just curious to know from you if EVERY SINGLE THING you experienced was totally BAD - with no exceptions.

    If I were to tell stories of some of my more positive or enjoyable experiences in SCN and the SO would that be welcome here by any of you or totally frowned upon in which case I should refrain from doing so? I'm NOT trying to ruffle any feathers or violate any forum rules...just trying to get a feel for this site and it's members.

    2. Taking into account the above are you against the Church of SCN and/or the SO as a whole entire entity and everyone in it?

    Using the Catholic Church as an analogy as you know there are priests within it who are pedophiles who have done much to harm young men physically, mentally and emotionally, but does that mean that the entire Catholic Church and all the priests in it and all it's doctrines and beliefs are bad...or just the few wrongdoers who have caused it to get a bad name and reputation?

    The point I'm trying to politely make with respect to you all (and this is just my opinion) is that I feel that Scientology itself (the basic truths and principles) uncontaminated by those who knowingly abuse, mis-use and complacently mis-understand the technology and policies... is itself good...and that it is the rotten apples in the basket - the evil wrongdoers within all levels of the SCN and SO hierarchy who should rightfully be targeted and attacked and held accountable for their actions.

    There is no way that of the millions of scientologists and however many sea org members there are in the world that they are ALL bad, evil people. It seems to me that Leah Remini while doing a good thing by exposing the bad does notjustly critique or discriminate between the good members of the Church and the bad members but rather attacks the entire Church itself as a whole with no due regard for what parts are good about it.

    3. Even though you are an EX do you still believe in or use ANY of the basics of SCN in your life such as:

    Using a dictionary to look up words you don't know or understand? I don't know about you but in my entire schooling from pre-K to college grad I was NEVER taught or encouraged to use a dictionary by any teacher or professor nor did it dawn on me to use one. That one basic piece of tech has helped and continues to help me understand what I am reading.

    The basics of communication and the ARC triangle, the 8 dynamics, ethics, axioms etc...or is your conviction that it is all trash useless and nonsense?

    Thank you for reading this and for caring to respond (if you decide to do so)

    Oh yeah, some of you may be wondering why, if I still believe in what I refer to as the good part of SCN am I not still in it?
    I left the SO during the nasty episode of entheta, enturbulation and outright anti-LRH and SCN that I heard and witnessed between Mission Holders and SO Management at Flag. Ever since then there has been so much entheta and controversy and back and forth attacks in the press, TV, internet, youtube etc..involving the higher ups from David Miscavage on down the ladder and as a declared SP I do not know where I stand, nor do I know whom to trust anymore, nor do I wish to subject myself to any possible harrassment. I am 70 years old just want to live in peace.

    MJ
     
  2. TrevAnon

    TrevAnon Big List researcher

    I guess this is the post you lost earlier :biggrin:

    I was never in.

    I thinks it's okay to post your memories here, good or bad. However posting success stories is frowned upon, if not against the rules.

    I am against the abuses. I don't have a personal beef with anyone in. Hell, other than here on ESMB, on WWP, the Bunker etc I don't even know any Scientologist.

    From what I get however most scilons are in fact good people. They're just misinformed. Of course there are also bad apples in COS just like everywhere else.

    I think the beliefs of Scientology itself are flawed. I wouldn't know where to begin, and people who were in may be better in arguing this point of view. My biggest beef would be that it is a totalitarian system. It doesn't allow people to criticize it.

    I certainly learnt to use a dictionary at school, and I still use one every now and then. Also, there is google, and wikipedia. I do think it is stupid to look up a word like "the" as I heard scilons are supposed to do.

    Hope this helps.

    I have a question myself: please check the links in my sig and tell us what you think about them :)
     
  3. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Hi there.

    For me in relation to Scientoxity and my experience it's a mixed bag. I personally think it is addressing the ego and, as such, is pseudo spiritual; however, I also see it as an assist type of function. Perhaps some ego puff is good.

    From there it graduates into a demeaning one-way method of control.

    I see the red vols as the "good" in Scientology and the green vols as the abuse. The red was probably a collaberation and the green are all Ron.

    I believe Hubbard was a catalyst but definately not "source" the way he attributed it.

    I think there's some fantastic "stuff" there and I have seen what many would consider as miracles that were routine occurrences...mostly behavioural but some physical. I and others have had blow out wins. I cannot deny that and contrary to what popular opinion states these conditions did not abate.

    I have also seen the abuse and the net exposure is devastating. From that I conclude that in small doses maybe because I've witnessed that to be dangerous.

    In the end is it necessary? I've concluded no.

    Someone said it best where except for conditioning people to pay money Scientology is basically worthless.

    I think the longer the exposure and the closer to "source", Ron or "power" one gets the worse the damage is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  4. tr8theta

    tr8theta I Love Kitties

    Thank you for your reply.:yes:
    It's definitely different for those of us who were "in it" subjectively than for those who have only heard or read stories - both good and bad about SCN. If I may, to say that the beliefs of SCN are flawed is a pretty big generality especially if you don't know all of them. What is "flawed" is misproper use of it. I totally agree with you that no belief system should attack people who criticize it as we are all entitled to freedom of speech and our feelings and opinions. LRH said "If its true for you...it's true". For some people SCN works...for others it does not. My understanding about proper dictionary usage is only when you come across a word you don't know or fully understand...like the word "viands" for example. The man went to his kitchen to get some "viands" (look it up LOL)
    MJ






     
  5. tr8theta

    tr8theta I Love Kitties

    Thank you guanoloco for your sincere reply. Hablas espanol? I only ask because of your screen name.
    I look forward to hearing as many ESMO members feelings and opinions as are willing to share them with me.
    I am happy for you for your good experiences and am sorry for any you had that were not.
    Best Wishes
    MJ:eyeroll:


     
  6. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Hi TR8Theta,

    I'm glad you managed to get your post back up. Sorry you lost the original and had to retype it.

    I was in the SO from 1977-1986. Was OEC and ESTO trained, CL V and OTIV. I held both high and low posts, everything from nanny to Exec Esto AOLA, Dir Income USGO and Dir I&R AOLA. I was also a 3rd Cl Missionaire, completed two successful CMO missions and helped or personally developed some of the computer and call-in policies. I was on the PAC RPF twice. In other words, I was quite trained and experienced in Scn and not a naive outsider.

    So it always amazes me, even blows my mine how bizarre it is that anyone can still believe in Scientology once they've been out, but yet some always do. You do. Okay.

    Believing in it means brushing aside all the disasters, the mistakes, the people hurt, booted or kicked out, as well as the numerous corrective actions that were taken by some very well-meaning folks to correct things and yet nothing ever stayed corrected because policy in some way always deemed those corrections were wrong. It means ignoring the fact so many OTs ended up dead with cancer or by suicide, perverts, criminals or completely lacking in humanity.

    My second best experience in Scientology was when I assisted Kerry Gleeson to reprieve all the PAC RPF around 1982, personally getting each one of them and watching their elated, happy faces as they finally got their freedom and dignity back. I'm sure all of them had floating T/As that day. They all did fine on post, too. It turned out none of them belonged there after all. The first best experience, of course, was picking up my beautiful son and seeing his gorgeous face when I finally was allowed to leave the RPF prison after a year of being prohibited from seeing him, and telling him, "you never have to go back there again."

    Since some good people were involved in developing some parts of Scientology and since other parts were plagiarized or altered from famous psychologists or others, there were good parts to it. I've found the originals were far better than the L Ron Hubbard bastardized versions, though.

    Some stuff was absolute garbage. Like Volume 3, all based on the fact that LRH did not understand double-entry bookkeeping so called it a bunch of names and made up a tedious system with an original and five copies of every invoice to make up for his lack of comprehension. Oh you could make it work. There are just far better systems.

    To still like Scientology you have to forget the awful conditions for the kids, the way they parents were kept from them, their loneliness, their having to fend for themselves. You have to ignore all the people who were brutalized, the screaming from those locked in rooms who went crazy from it, the parents crying for their children, the heartache it produced, the youth it stole from people's lives.

    I am sorry that so many good people get sucked into it, but that is the way of the world. Idealists are often scammed by opportunists. Of course plenty of Scientologists are good folks. I knew plenty like that, but we agreed to horrible policies and enforced them. We were misled.

    Now we know better, so there are no more excuses for that.
     
  7. cleared cannibal

    cleared cannibal Silver Meritorious Patron

    At first Scn seems to be about self help and much of this seems beneficial. The farther one goes the more you go into the spiritual. It really is hard to sort the good from the bad for me even now and impossible while you are in.

    Oddly Scn confirmed to me the presence of some kind of supreme being and when I voiced this it was not the direction they wished me to go. I have conclude that while I believe one is mostly self determined one is not entirely so. Now whether there is a god or it is merely random chance, that is open to discussion. Also I don't think absolute certainty exists. It can be approached but never achieved . How does this all apply to Scn? These thoughts are absolutely not tolerated. I say there is more than one road to heaven and maybe for some it is Scn but not me. I just feel that the processing and training often makes one unclear what they really think vs what Scn wants you to think. What is it Shakespeare said? "To thine own self be true". Scn makes this very hard to do.

    While I have said I believe in a supreme being Scn has made me sort of a skeptic on organized religion. The abuses and control are maybe more common in Scn than some others but the idea is the same . That is "ours is the true and only way". I come back to the idea of " more than one road to heaven" not tolerated generally in organized religion.
     
  8. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Great post Sheila!

    But I'm going to suggest that LRH probably did understand double-entry bookkeeping and that is why he didn't want to use it. Easier to hide and skim with his complicated system. And I agree how useless it is. When I started my first business I tried to apply it and about the only thing I use now is dating bills for a payment schedule when they come in, duh.
     
  9. EZ Linus

    EZ Linus BT-free since 2003!

    I was in for about 20 years. I started out when I was super young, then left when I was a rebellious teen for a couple of years, then came back all super charged (full fledged), until I left around 1999-2000. I was not in the SO, but I was on staff for a couple of years as a young adult. I was public, but 95% of my friends, any jobs I had or groups I was involved in were all SCN involved. While I wasn't a conservative Scientologist by any means, I was a good and ethical one. Even while I was in, I was sickened when I witnessed OT VIIIs doing anything remotely out-ethics, let alone cheating on spouses, sleeping with minors, cheating on taxes, I could go on and on. Maybe friends of mine were SO members and I knew about a lot of stuff that went on there too, even while I was at Flag where I spent an extended period of time.

    I was Clear and was on my solo course, fully management trained. (I know the green books well). I wouldn't really be able to audit anyone with a meter though, not officially on Grades, but I know how to work a meter comfortably.

    It took a long time for me to not believe in the tech anymore. Because I never did OT levels, I never believed in Xenu or any of that. And when I found out, it freaked me out. I didn't know what to think. Freaked out is an understatement. This was all before South Park. I wondered how I would have reacted had I reached the moment when I was actually on that level and broke open the story and read that for myself after paying whatever it would have cost me. I had no idea it would have been anything like that, BTs, or whatever -- my God. That would have made me go insane or something.

    Once I read - A LOT - of information that I wouldn't or couldn't have read as a Scientologist, there was no way I could possibly believe in the "technology." anymore.

    Yes, I miss my friends and I think most Scientologists are well-intended, good people that, unfortunately, are brainwashed and mind controlled. They think they "know," but they only believe in a doctrine. It's just that, within the confines and the SCN community, the walls are so high, they don't even see that there are walls. It is a miracle that a few of my other friends have left because they were born into it and have lost family members over it.

    It was really, really hard to shake off my beliefs because I had all the answers to everything, right? Now I like it better not having the answers to most things and learning shit all the time.

    What else was I going to say?

    Oh. Yes, while I was in, the only thing I didn't truly believe in was the PTS/SP stuff. I was a true believer in everything else, but that never sat with me as totally true. I was lucky that I had a seed of doubt in my head or maybe I wouldn't have been able to leave.

    Oops, I'm sorry, you asked about certain things I did not address.

    I still look up words I do not understand, but not little words and not words that become obvious within the context of what I am reading, unless I can think of them next time I have access to a dictionary. I don't believe that if I don't I will not be able to assimilate the rest of the text.

    I do not believe in raising different sides of the ARC triangle to establish understanding with people. I think that's BS. I find that genuinely listening to people works great.

    The "communication cycle" is an interesting thing, but Hubbard did not "discover" this. It's just common sense, and "duplication" isn't necessary within the process because it is actually impossible for a person not to have their own experience and reality (like their own filters) in play.

    My spirituality and God? Pretty private stuff, but I will say that I went into Scientology with a full belief in a supreme and universal Oneness (God-like) belief. It was frankly, beautiful and I felt like it looked over me and kept me safe. But I left feeling spiritually raped.

    Now I learn about how I feel about God on a daily basis I guess.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  10. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    It is a good question but whenever I ask this of myself and start to remember the good ol days, the luster fades with the realization that I was deceived. And I consider everyone else was also. Considering how so much of LRH's best laid plans also failed I'm not so sure he wasn't deceiving himself either. But being the source of deception in a closed system has it's perks.

    I was not there to save the world after all. I was there to make LRH rich and to save him from the world at great personal expense to myself, my friends and family. When I balance the scales I have to say it was a net net loss. It also took a long time and a lot more hard work to recoup lost ground by virtue of having handicapped myself. Just the lost social security benefits from years not filing a return or very little reported income is significant.

    A lot of people survive horrific circumstances like war where they made friends and developed character but would they take it back if they could?

    If I knew then what I know now, I never would have done it.

    But here is the catch. Just as one example: you are on the RPF or see someone on the RPF and do nothing. You know all the details, cut pay, left over food, can't speak unless spoken to, lower quality living standards in a basement, parking garage or 7th floor without elevator privileges, no family time or liberties, sleeping on a thin bunk mattress on the floor, screened communications in or out, always under guard or with a twin, must run everywhere, performing hazardous work with inadequate protective gear or protocols, poor medical care, etc. etc. You think it is OK because LRH created this program based on the tech. People have rights and recourse per policy and LRH is against heavy ethics so they must belong there.

    If we were in a fully informed state of mind where something like this would have been appropriately repulsive as it happened in real time would we be as favorably nostalgic about it knowing all our hard work and sacrifice was contributing to perpetuating it?

    So yes, I think there were a lot of very good people caught in an impossible situation but the good that I got out of it was in spite of LRH and Scientology not because of it.
     
  11. This is NOT OK !!!!

    This is NOT OK !!!! Gold Meritorious Patron

    Care to explain the value of the axioms?

    You can start with #1 and go from there.........
     
  12. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    ^^^^ THIS! :goodposting: :thumbsup: GREAT summary! You have a real gift for putting a big concept across in very few words. That's exactly how I felt, too.

    Bravo, BB! :clap: :clap: :clap:

    So they must belong there. Policy says so, L Ron is saving the planet, the tech works and I have to do KSW so they must belong there. or, the tech says so, so they must be SPs and they must deserve it.

    All those thought stoppers built in with the training. All those compassion blockers to get and keep us agreeing to these atrocities, and to eventually not even see them at all.

    The people who one by one, just disappeared, over and over. Don't ask, don't talk about it. Look away. It didn't happen. They were never there. If you believe it, it must be true. Look away from those blown SPs.

    The people who went Type III and were locked up on "babywatch," cut off from everything, treated like rabid animals. Ignore it, don't ask. Look away, that's entheta.

    The children dressed so ratty, running wild or severely punished, left to fend for themselves with almost no parenting or protection. Not your kids, don't question it, it's the Sea Org. Look away, they are dedicated to the tech.

    The people who paid huge amounts of money and were denied service and couldn't get it back. So many suicided. Look away, they must have been PTS, SP or DB. Look away, it's entheta.

    The people who paid huge amounts of money to NN or for their children and the kids ended up worse, or even dead. Swept under the rug like it never happened, like it doesn't keep happening. That's entheta. Look away!

    High divorce rates. Families torn apart by disconnection. Look away! Look away! That's entheta.

    The empty ideal orgs, the dwindling numbers of Scientologists, the fact that 99% of those who joined leave. Ignore that. Look away. That's entheta!


    No wonder Scientologists have so much trouble remembering until they leave. So many perceptions, emotions, thoughts and memories they weren't allowed to have. Don't see that, don't think that, don't care about that person anymore. Look away.

    No. :no: Scientology is one huge FAILURE when you don't look away.
     
  13. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    ..


    Luckily, a Scientologist has been lurking on this thread and has generously offered to answer:


     
  14. tr8theta

    tr8theta I Love Kitties

    Thank you so much for your reply and for being so thorough and specific. So nice to meet you.

    I would like to clarify something so there is no misunderstanding:
    All those atrocities you described below were inexcusably committed by wrongdoers calling themselves "Scientologists" but all those atrocities which those bad apples committed are NOT what Scientology is itself. If you eliminate the human factor altogether I do believe that there are good fundamental truths and principles in SCN which themselves uncontaminated are NOT evil or bad or harmful, but once they get into the hands of humans who abuse them for their own agendas in the name of Scientology it makes the Church in it's entirety as a whole look bad or evil. This may be a weak anology but for example take a pair of scissors which were invented for users to cut paper, fabric, thread etc...for good purposes or a kitchen knife designed to cut meat or cheese or tomatoes and at the dinner table...but in the hands of a criminal a pair of scissors or a knife can be used to KILL somebody. Does this mean that all scissors and knifes without exception are themselves objects of evilness and should be banished from existence? (Am I making any sense?)

    By believing in Scientology or more specifically SOME parts thereof does NOT mean I brush aside all the disasters, mistakes, people hurt (etc...all that you described below) because I discriminate between the good doers and well-intentioned members vs. the bad doers and evil-intentioned members. There are bad apples in every group, organization, religion etc.... Such a bad individual or individuals in such a group among many good ones, can spoil the group. Many people are of the mindset that because of one, two or a few baddies...the entire group is bad. I don't subscribe to that belief.
    I admire all that you achieved and your hard work while you were involved which I am sure you felt was meaningful at the time and I'm sorry for any wrongdoing or injustice you endured which you did not deserve.
    Sincerely yours
    MJ





     
  15. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    That's sweet. I remember when I used to think that, too. Unfortunately, if I hadn't believed that, I would have left the Sea Org many years earlier.

    Then I found out all those wrongdoers were following exactly what L Ron Hubbard wrote in policy. They were following "Command Intention." I studied the OEC course. Apparently you haven't. Don't try to fudge it, I know who did the OEC at PAC and others know who did it at Flag. There were only a limited number of us. So you assume they were doing things off-policy because believing policy in scn is infallible is part of your belief system. Nope. :no: They were doing standard Scientology. Right down to the last written words of L Ron Hubbard, Flag Orders and all.

    It was L Ron Hubbard who ordered the children be set up in that hellhole Fountain Building because he didn't want Sea Org to lose production time for transport to a better building. I saw the Mission Orders personally. In '78, ONLY L Ron Hubbard approved building purchases. Mary Sue tried very hard to help the kids. So did other SO members. They had three beautiful buildings lined up. Nope, didn't happen. L Ron thought kids were bad for production. So labor was cheap, at $30/week or less and bulk food and dorms with as many as 15 people in them. Yet the Sea Org had BILLIONS of dollars. It has tens of billions now, and the Sea Org are still paid garbage and run like slaves. That's policy. It's KSW. Like what you're doing right now.

    My father used to say, "never ASSUME. It makes an ASS of U and ME."
     
  16. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    To respond to the rest of your post (but I first had to respond to your idea that all the problems in scn came from bad people MISapplying policy or NOT applying standard scn policy).

    I actually don't have a problem at all with some people using some of scn tech. It's not all dangerous and a lot of people have a play with it before they leave scn completely, or even retain parts of it. But I do know scn policy. I know what's in there. Most of those out of COS who still practice scn don't have a lot of use for the green and white stuff after they've really studied and learned what's in there, either. There's better business tech in the real world.

    Btw, you were here some years ago, under a different ID, weren't you? And you chatted with one of the other former members of the Apollo Stars here, then, right? Or was that a different member of the Apollo Stars?
     
  17. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    ..


    I. According to Scientologists, L. Ron Hubbard had total "knowingness" about all of the universe's hitherto impenetrable & undiscoverable secrets.

    And, yet--

    II. According to Scientologists, L Ron Hubbard didn't know what was going on right around him in his own church (COS) and organization (Sea Org) as both daily perpetrated a 36 year crimewave by following policies that he also didn't know existed--even though he wrote them.






    If one can clay demo paragraph II, above, and have a win on how that is even possible--they are worthy of being called a real Scientologist!
     
  18. phenomanon

    phenomanon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I can't let 10 Aug go by without mentioning the fooking thing. LOL! "

    squeeze the cans take a deep breath and let it out slowly. Are you hungry? How much sleep did you get last night? Any Aspirin,alcohol, or drugs out of time limits? Any reason we shouldn't have a session?

    :moon:
     
  19. tr8theta

    tr8theta I Love Kitties

    Thank you to all who shared and contributed thus far to my thread. Everyone has been so nice and polite. Thank you for that.

    Hearing what you have to say is certainly giving me more depth of insight into the vast and varied impact SCN has had (and continues to have)on people from all over the world.
    I sure never thought it would all come down to this (the tangled mess that SCN is today) just short of 50 years after I first heard about SCN.
    It's interesting how so many people who come here to ESMB have so much in common (bad SCN and SO experiences) and in a sense still feel that by coming here they are yet part of something.

    I'm looking forward to hearing from old friends who I knew in the SO between 1972 and 1982 both on the Apollo and at Flag.

    By the way someone correct me if I am wrong but I distinctly remember that the document (I think it was a FCO Flag Conditions Order) announcing the creation of the RPF was written by Ken Urghart (spelling?) but maybe it was LRH's idea and Ken just wrote it into being...I don't know.

    I'm 70 years old. I don't think I'm gonna last another 20-30 years but I'd sure like to see what becomes of SCN in the next few years or decades. What do YOU think will happen?
    Also, if anything at all have you found any religion, philosophy, beliefs that you now subscribe to? Sucks to not believe in something.
    MJ
     
  20. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    .


    I have had a similar thought at times.

    But, it competes with another thought.

    Is believing in nothing something?

    LOL
     

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