Scientology - To criticize and discriminate

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by tr8theta, Aug 10, 2017.

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  1. phenomanon

    phenomanon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Rog, that's where I am right now.
    I remember when I was a small girl and I would sit on this old iece of rug and pretend it was a magic carpet. My Magic Carpet. It would take me places, msuch as my imagination could conjure. Dreams . Wisps of lives. Adventures.
    I just don't have much attention on my body. It has always served me well.
    I just don't want to live so long that I don't remember who I am, or who Dan is, and its my old body strapped in a wheelchair, drooling.
    I don't have any plans to kill myself in the present, but I want to keep the option open in case I sometime might choose an early demise.
  2. TrevAnon

    TrevAnon Big List researcher

    VWD (am i allowed to use that phrase?)


    The other parts of her story are also on Mike Rinders blog. It was published in parts. Too bad Mike doesn't provide an index (AFAICF)


    lois reisdorf cmo
  3. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    If you don't have Alzheimers by now (It is my very strong opinion that you don't! Your memory is better than most people in their 20s, ffs!) then the odds of you getting it at all are about the same as you dying from being hit by a UFO. So scratch that one from your list of worries!

    It sounds like you don't know much about hospice care, so copy and paste this in your browser.

    All the solutions you need are there, so read up. Call them if you have questions. Nobody keeps the elderly going for years in comas, okay? That's a myth. Hospitals are abusive to elderly and keep them going for too long in poor conditions, but hospice is not hospital care and it can be in or out of your own home. They do not extend life. They do all they can to make your transition to the next existence as smooth as possible for you and your family.
    Love you!! :hug: :console:
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  4. cleared cannibal

    cleared cannibal Silver Meritorious Patron

    I have had the misfortune to have several family members in nursing homes the last few years. Depressing places. One thing that struck me is that most of those in there seemed not to want live but just not to die. As this is a thread criticizing Scn I feel there was a thing I did get from it. I tend not to fear death now but look on it as an adventure. As my elders are passing it brings your own immortality into focus. I feel ones outlook definitely changes when you become the eldest in your clan. I am not there yet but I am getting there as it does when you realize there is more behind you than in front of you. What I hate about death more than anything is the death of your memories. I have wondered if having offspring is an attempt to keep your memories alive. I really think the whole past/future life thing in Scn is way for us to avoid dying or at least keep that hope alive. Even Christianity has the idea of living in heaven with the father.

    This not fearing death is kind of like balancing on a pin though. It is not that far of jump to wanting to die. There is a time and place to die but that also is hard to define and is probably the most personnel of all decisions. Probably the thing I hate most about Scn is that it took part of my will to live. You know people talk about in their success stories about colors being more brilliant and smells more sharp , in other words heightened senses. For me it was the opposite, hard to experience joy or sorrow. Sorry a derail I guess .
  5. Wilbur

    Wilbur Patron with Honors

    I'm so glad you came back to the board tr8. Just take it easy. You can post as much or as little as you like here. Sometimes I don't feel like posting for weeks and weeks. Then sometimes I get the urge to express something (often as a result of someone else's post).

    You won't go to thetan hell for reading stuff critical of L. Ron Hubbard (I'm sure I'm not telling you something that you don't already realise, but I remember that it took me a lot of courage to post on a 'natter board': the residual programming of my ethical sense was still there for some time after leaving the church). If Scientology is indeed a science, then criticising its founder shouldn't matter much. What should matter is how you live your life, and how you allow yourself to unfold spiritually.

    I probably got as much good out of Scientology as I got bad, so I can still see some good things in the body of writings. But some people on this board wasted decades of their life in the SO or on staff, and/or spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on OT levels, and then found they had nothing in their hand but a bag full of broken promises. So I'm 'tolerant' (without wishing to sound patronising) of the fact that some have rabid anti-Scn sentiments. From my perspective, that's throwing the baby out with the bath-water. But from the perspective of someone who wasted three decades in the Sea Org, I'm sure the evaluation of cost/benefit is a bit different. I think it's worth bearing this in mind on this board. We all come at it from slightly different directions.

    Nevertheless, I think that there is a valuable diversity of viewpoints and experiences to be had from listening to folks here.

    I do hope you stick around....

  6. phenomanon

    phenomanon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Sheila, Honey, I am not worried about about any of that health stuff.
    I have thought of having a tatoo down my chest that reads"Do Not Open". :thumbsup:
    I have it covered. I have all the gd paperwork, in my files, in an Executor's hands, in my Drs files.My wishes are filed on our front windowpane, and on the refrigerator, I have File of Life folders in my wallet. 'I aint worried about any o dat! My admin is in Power.:happydance:

    I live in paradise. My space, in real terms, is vast, I have all the food I can eat, and all I wish to grow, and I have gardens with flowers and I have Art projects & this bloody computer & a husband & a cat that keeps me grounded. I have this message board to keep me entertained. Also have little yellow birds, Goldfinches, maybe 2 dozen of them in my 75 ft tall false cedar tree. They chitter all day long out there. Tom Devoct's pix of his daughter, Ellie, on FB, makes me smile every day.:yes:

    Life is sweet.
  7. Wilbur

    Wilbur Patron with Honors

    I couldn't agree more. My father died in a hospice when I was a child, and I had the opportunity to see the darker side of life/death when I visited him there. There were so many people with so many things wrong with them, and one thing in common: they were dying, or at least had no hope of getting well again.

    My mother outlived my father by over a decade-and-a-half. By the time she was about to die, her body was wasting away. She couldn't possibly have wanted to continue living like that, but she also feared death. When she slept at night, she was terrified of seeing the devil, and tried to push thoughts of evil from her mind.

    Seeing all of this, I too am thankful that I don't fear death. Scientology probably contributed much to that viewpoint, via the stuff on exteriorisation, and the belief in reincarnation.

    On the (possibly) negative side, Scientology has also made me more willing to consider the possibility of suicide if I ever reached the point where my life was not worth living, through terminal illness or whatever. Although Scientology nominally taught that suicide was a "hat dump" and irresponsible, there was also an undercurrent of an idea that, if your body became useless, then it would be more causative to do an E.O.C. ("end of cycle") or self-inflicted R2-45, whatever you want to call it. I think Scientology teaching itself was quite ambivalent on this issue, but I don't myself see what would be irresponsible about killing a body that was no longer functional (aside from the upset that it might cause loved ones).

  8. EZ Linus

    EZ Linus Patron with Honors

  9. Little David

    Little David Silver Meritorious Patron

    AND, he abandoned/deserted nine of them. Sarah, his second wife, was smart enough to dump the bastard.

    L. Ron and his second wife Sara and their child, Alexis (LRH kidnapped Alexis and took her to Cuba, he told Sara he cut her into pieces and threw her in a river, then he disowned Alexis when her mother, Sara, refused to get back together with him).:


    A recent photo of Alexis:


    The daughter of Alexis with her daughter:

    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  10. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Wilbur, I think you have the terms confused. Nursing homes and Hospices are two different things. The concept of Hospice care has only been prevalent in the US since the emphasis on "Death with Dignity" began in 1972. The first Hospice in the US was in Connecticut in 1974. It caught on quickly, though, and by 1979 the US government recognized 26 different Hospice programs.

    So it probably wasn't around when you were a child. I think you mean nursing homes. Those can be horrible, but we're talking about two things that are almost the opposite of each other. One extends life (nursing home) and is primarily a medical care facility for the elderly, the other (Hospice) does not use medical intervention (or uses minimal intervention) and assists death with dignity for the terminally ill.
  11. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    MMMwah! :smoochy: Good to hear!

    Here's a good story for ya:

    I once had this wonderful lady client who was a famous Australian artist and just a joy to be around. She had lived about six years beyond what the doctors stated and although she was on a respirator a good portion of the day, she enjoyed life and her family. She was a beautiful soul, we had wonderful conversations! She had class and dignity and had the best espresso in town. She was the first person who ever taught me how to make microwaved eggs, too!

    One week she started losing her appetite and was rapidly losing weight. She, too, had notes all over the house with her instructions on what to do IF! DNR! Don't call the ambulance! DNR! And I walk in to my shift one day to find her collapsed on the floor of the lovely kitchen of her artsy house, gasping for breath and panicing.

    PANIC is the worst thing anyone can do. PANIC is a killer, it shuts down the systems, leads to heart attacks and all sorts of stuff. Not a nice way to die. So instead of getting all excited and freaked out, I got down on the floor with her and asked her in a joking way, "Whatcha doin' on the floor? Inspecting if the cabinets are clean enough?" and she started to chuckle. Still, she was pointing to the signs of what to do, etc. (like your signs, lol!) I said, "Yeh, yeh, I know," in an intentionally bored sort of way. Slowly, gently, I helped her up, first to a sitting position, still carrying on normal chat in a calm voice. In 15 minutes, she was able to walk with assistance. Another ten minutes, and she was in her favorite chair, having a cup of tea and calm.

    That day, we planned together for the unavoidable, and she had an incredible week with her family. She died naturally, unassisted, in her own bed the morning after her one last, beautiful, perfect day at the beach with all of her extended family. Hard to believe it was unassisted, but it really was. No pills left at the bedside by her family by accident, nothing. She had no prescriptions. That kind of freaked her family out the way she knew, but this was a very spiritual and special woman, too. :)

    That's how I want to do it when I go. :thumbsup: You're awesome, like her, and I wish you years of happiness to come and a smooth transition something like that when it's your time, too. :biglove:
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  12. tr8theta

    tr8theta I Love Kitties

    My depression days are way behind me and like yourself meds did the trick for me and I am all the better for taking them. :happydance:
  13. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    That, is one of the best stories I have ever heard ... she must have loved you for doing what you did (and didn't do).


  14. cleared cannibal

    cleared cannibal Silver Meritorious Patron

    My father in law was in hospice in the nursing home for about 2 months before he passed. He was pretty much himself until about the last month. I think hospice helped him quite a bit . He was not a big church goer and I believe it help him accept death. Hate to use these words(LOL) but the last month I think he was checking himself out because hospice made him comfortable with death. The vaunted OT levels promote this. That was even what Hubbard did according to Scn. How did my father in law achieve this w/o auditing? LOL
  15. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Thanks! It was awkward as hell. Beyond making a person comfortable, there is no training for what you DO (only what you don't do!) in the first few moments when you can't call the ambulance, can't do CPR or even use smelling salts (because those would be medical interventions, which this woman explicitly forbade), and every moment mattered, so even turning to call a family member could be a fatal mistake. Her family needed to be there, but calling them right then would have scared her more and they may not have arrived in time. The daughter would have been the first there, but she was high-strung. The woman was never sure her daughter would NOT call an ambulance, so shook her head "no" when I asked if I should call her. I never told the family or even my agency that part. Some things you don't repeat or report out of decency. It's bad enough to have to report the substance of every stool movement. IMO, dignity means privacy when it's important to save the feelings of cherished loved ones or the secrets a person tells you in confidence.

    So there I was, laying on the floor with her because she couldn't get up yet, for a 15 full minutes. I'm normally not the best with words, but at least I was well-grounded in Australian humor and attitude and knew the wonderful physical benefits of laughter. So I said the only things I could think of that might lighten the gravity and awkwardness of the situation and laid down on the floor with her to make her more comfortable. I could imagine you doing the same thing, ITYIWT. :coolwink: I didn't know the physical damage, so couldn't even move her, another unknown where I had to wait for her cue when she was ready.

    Laying on the floor with her (impeccably clean floor, btw, lol), I said, "It looks a lot different from down here, doesn't it?" and she smiled.:biggrin:
    "Oh shit!" I said, "Look over there, I missed a spot!" Together we critiqued the state of the floor, baseboards, cabinets and ceiling and giggled like teenagers at a slumber party. :handinhand: Why? Because we both thought it was hilarious to ignore the gravity of death and the close call she'd had and it was comforting to look at her beloved kitchen and chat about everyday, non-threatening things that had no emotional significance.

    Once I got her in her chair with her tea, her son called, so I turned to make her bed and change her sheets, etc. I left her to report what had just happened and have that talk in private. By then the rush of what had just happened hit me and my heart was racing. I was shaking badly and needed a few minutes to recover. She'd scared the wits out of me. Once I finished the bed, I was okay, and went back to her to have the practical talk.

    "How long do I have?" she asked me. Blunt! I gave her that look, you know, the one that says, "Don't make me say it."

    "I mean it. I want to know," she said.

    "I'm not a doctor. I can't give you a medical opinion, just my personal opinion, and you can't repeat it." She swore she wouldn't.

    "Do you know how many times I've put my family through hell, when I thought I was dying and I wasn't?" she told me, "I can't do that to them again, but I have to know. Am I dying or is this just another one of those?"

    "I can only give you my opinion," I said, "It doesn't mean it means anything."

    She begged me. I couldn't refuse. After all, she wasn't a child.

    "You lost your appetite," I said, "You can't stomach much anymore. You're losing weight too quickly. It's going to be fast now."

    "But how long? Months?" She persisted. I shook me head. :no:

    "Days?" she asked, eyes wide. I gave her a meaningful look. I was tearing up, couldn't help it. Then I said it, "Anywhere from a few days to a few weeks, tops. Not a month. I think you safely have a week."

    Then we had both the practical and spiritual conversations.

    That was the last time I saw her. I'm pretty sure it was a Monday. Others had shifts after me. She died early the following Sunday morning.

    I remembered getting in my car when I left, stunned. I don't remember if I had other clients that day. I don't remember anything else that happened that week, but I remember hearing the news of her death from my boss, reading the obituary, and I remember going to our staff meeting about two weeks later.

    There were all her carers. We were all there a little early, wanted to talk about it. Every last one of them was terrific. I was glad it was a family member who had found her Sunday morning rather than one of my teammates. Maybe that was selfish, but we dealt with so much heartache on a regular basis and lost a lot of good carers over the years when it became too much. This time, we were all spared.

    "Did you hear?" one asked. I nodded, tears welling up.
    "Amazing, isn't it?" another said, with a light in her eyes through the glitter of tears.
    "A miracle," I said, and they all nodded.

    The more details I heard from them, the more amazing the story became. Each of the carers was an important part of that story. Like a jigsaw puzzle, without even knowing what each of us had done or said, we had each done something significant for our beloved art lady. Without any planning between us, it was yet coordinated like the perfect symphony and somehow all connected. We were all connected to her, through her and somehow I believe she stayed connected to her loved ones afterwards, too.

    This has been a long post, but it's not unrelated.

    When I think of our mutual experiences in Scientology and the connections we made and our experiences since, every now and then I see the same sort of unplanned coordination, despite our different backgrounds and different roads we've taken. As many have said before me, Scientology was special because of the people it drew to it. It could have been any guru. The connections would be there whether Scientology worked or didn't. Our hearts and good intentions guided us - we were all bigger than Scientology if and when we only realized it: a galaxy of stars all shining on their own, but together weaving a brilliant tapestry just by being ourselves.
  16. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Well, my sweet Phenom . . . that in red is why I take my daily lithium . . . my very smart natural-alternative MD knows what's good for keeping bodies going . . . Plus, as you know, I am a bit of a health nut.

    And besides Sweet V has strict instructions that if I go gaga . . . "pull the bloody plug or give ma a magic pill!" . . . she knows I have better things to do with my time than sitting around being stupid! :biggrin:

    For me, my view is that it is not an issue of "early demise," but an issue of coming to the point of an end of usefulness of the body.

    Hey, think of the bright side: we might end up meeting in Heaven! :cloud9:

  17. Gizmo

    Gizmo Rabble Rouser

    WTF are these " basic truths and principles " you seem to claim were discovered by scientology ?

    "millions of scientologists" > OK. WTF are they ? 20,000 not millions, please !

    I was taught to use a dictionary in school. Nothing unique about that part of study ( LRH stole his "Study Tek " lock, stock, & barrel anyway).

    Don't look now but BILLIONS of people communicate just fine. Look at the books, plays, operas, laws, science & everything else man has created long long before the scourge of that nasty little cult called scn raised it's forked tongue !

    Scn has nothing of use that can't be found in plainer more useful form elsewhere - and for a normal book price NOT hundreds of thousands of dollars.
    If scn was so great then how did LRH end up hiding from the law, mad as a hatter swatting at BTs, stroke ridden & in very very poor physical health, too? EPIC FAIL !

    Bashar is more believable than Dr Hubbard !


    Bashar is a multi-dimensional being, a friend from the future who has spoken for the past 33 years through channel, Darryl Anka, bringing through a wave of new information that clearly explains in detail how the universe works and how each person creates the reality they experience. Over the years, thousands of individuals have had the opportunity to apply these principles and see if they really work to change their lives and create the reality that they desire.

    Overwhelmingly the response we receive is "This works!"
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  18. phenomanon

    phenomanon Gold Meritorious Patron

  19. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    That's a wonderful story Sheila ... thanks so much for sharing it (and yes, I hope I would've done the same thing).

  20. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader


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