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So why do people leave, anyway? Why did WE leave?

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Most of the people here used to be in CofS. The demographic here is mainly exes- including myself. I've been watching people leave who were extremely devoted to CofS and to Scn. I've seen and heard of OTVIIs leave, newbies leave, former staff, former OSA types, former senior management (!)-- just all sorts of people who really had a lot invested emotionally, financially and even spiritually get angry and leave.

I think most people leave because of the mistreatment and abuses. We know about those- there have been many posts naming those things and even books that the cult couldn't stop. I have spoken with those who thought that the abuses pretty much started under DM. However, the majority think that it started under Hubbard and they've posted specifics. From what I can ascertain, he was capricious and unfair even as early as the early fifties. It just got worse as time went on, though I do think DM is even worse and seems to be escalating his insanity. But it was already a bad situation even before he took over.

I think most people leave because of the crap the cult pulls. Families destroyed, insane and hideous pressure on staff members and poor working and living conditions, coerced abortions, regging people out of their last dimes, recruiters going after minors and also trying to blackmail their parents and families of young adults into joining the SO- those are some examples.

But how many people left because they saw that the tech was either not benefitting them at all or only to a very limited extent- certainly not what was advertised? I'm really wondering. For years I've been saying "Well, you can only push people so far" whenever I see another person leave. Hell, I left for that reason. I've been expelled twice- the first time for wanting to leave staff where I was pressured, sexually abused and lied to; the second ( a year after I walked away) for posting to alt.religion.scientology. There're a lot of pissed off ex members and I don't ever recall hearing one thing that struck me as petty or wrong headed in anyone's reasons for having left. Ever. But is there a contingent of people who either didn't get a chance to experience much, if any, abusive behavior, or who didn't think it was a big deal but who looked at Dianetic and Scn tech and said "Ok. They blew it. This doesn't do anything (or" this makes me feel worse") and I'm out of here." as either their sole or main reason for leaving.

I'm really wondering.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Well, I was trying to attach a poll to this. I got the thing where it give me the Windows Explorer msg like it didn't go through when it really DID. I get that a lot, and I've always assumed it's just internet traffic on the forum. So the thread got created but never pulled up the poll options because of that.

But maybe people can just weigh in with their thoughts anyway.
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
Maybe word *Disaffected* would fit the bill?

Disaffected from seeing the huge uncorrectable gap between "in the books" and "in reality"
 
Probably for most, they just get tired of lying to themselves. From the minute you get involved in Scientology you have to start making excuses to yourself about the discrepancies of what Scientology is supposed to be and what it really is.
 

GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
my case ...

Most of the people here used to be in CofS. The demographic here is mainly exes- including myself. I've been watching people leave who were extremely devoted to CofS and to Scn. I've seen and heard of OTVIIs leave, newbies leave, former staff, former OSA types, former senior management (!)-- just all sorts of people who really had a lot invested emotionally, financially and even spiritually get angry and leave.

I think most people leave because of the mistreatment and abuses. We know about those- there have been many posts naming those things and even books that the cult couldn't stop. I have spoken with those who thought that the abuses pretty much started under DM. However, the majority think that it started under Hubbard and they've posted specifics. From what I can ascertain, he was capricious and unfair even as early as the early fifties. It just got worse as time went on, though I do think DM is even worse and seems to be escalating his insanity. But it was already a bad situation even before he took over.

I think most people leave because of the crap the cult pulls. Families destroyed, insane and hideous pressure on staff members and poor working and living conditions, coerced abortions, regging people out of their last dimes, recruiters going after minors and also trying to blackmail their parents and families of young adults into joining the SO- those are some examples.

But how many people left because they saw that the tech was either not benefitting them at all or only to a very limited extent- certainly not what was advertised? I'm really wondering. For years I've been saying "Well, you can only push people so far" whenever I see another person leave. Hell, I left for that reason. I've been expelled twice- the first time for wanting to leave staff where I was pressured, sexually abused and lied to; the second ( a year after I walked away) for posting to alt.religion.scientology. There're a lot of pissed off ex members and I don't ever recall hearing one thing that struck me as petty or wrong headed in anyone's reasons for having left. Ever. But is there a contingent of people who either didn't get a chance to experience much, if any, abusive behavior, or who didn't think it was a big deal but who looked at Dianetic and Scn tech and said "Ok. They blew it. This doesn't do anything (or" this makes me feel worse") and I'm out of here." as either their sole or main reason for leaving.

I'm really wondering.

For me it was gradual. I felt I wasn't getting anywhere, prices were getting way too high (during the 5% per month price increase days from October of 76thru September of 1980, I was tired of pissy little KR's being dropped on me, I was tired of it being decided that I was the "who", I was tired of group think, I was tired of a local mission director who tried to micromanage people's lives, play match maker, business referer, etc. I was tired of having my time bogarted by being on course. I was tired of doing TR's. I was tired of more and more pre-requisites coming down from on high getting in the way of just getting my bridge done. I never saw any real, concrete evidence in my own life of anything really special as a result of Scientology. It just seemed like I was shoveling shit against the tide. I was finally asked to leave the mission, via letter saying that I was more "org public" wtf that meant. I left the area on a job offer in California, getting me out of Connecticut, where I was tired of being snowed on.

Shortly after I got to California, the Connecticut mission network of mission holder F. Brown McKee splintered off from Cof$ after Brown was declared, following the mission holder meeting down in Flag in December of 1981. I felt no loyalty to Cof$ after that, but still thought I might go back at sometime. Eventually I got used to not being "on lines" and liking it. I went back to smoking weed from time to time, I pretty well knew I was out at that point and not just away. The last bit of the spell was broken in 1989 when I read the Bent Corydon book, LRH: Messiah or Madman, and had a hearty laugh over the Xenu story.

Pete
 

rosros

Patron
As far as I am concerned, as a SO staff I was willing to tolerate duress (it was harsh but I have not experienced abuses such as beatings or being shouted down; probably abusive conditions would have accelerated the process; the worst legacy for me was the "Scn twisted" mindset, which prevented other interpretation of many situations and - perhaps - greater enjoyment of life), since I subscribed to the principle that Scn (as practiced in the SO) was the "only way out". There was a situation (RPF) though in which I realized there was NO WAY of getting through in compliance with the 'Tech'. This broke the camel's [...lower case...] back. I kept this wholly for myself and started planning my escape right away. Still I kept to some extent my 'faith' in the conundrum of Scn... until I finally saw the light in the ESMB.
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
This topic can alway use another workover..

So.. Thinking about just why yet again.. I noticed that the 'church' cheated students into a kind of trap with every course completion.. The mandatory and undersigned 'Success Stories'.. That worked like you'd given your word on what you got out of the course or service.

I didn't see why that hoodwinkery was needed.. You work to learn something.. You don't need to be trapped in a 'loyal/treason' kind of bind over it.

That really was the first thing that 'annoyed' me.. But I didn't leave because of it.

When I finally left it was being 'ordered' to ethics for being 5 minutes late that became the drop that toppled the applecart. I was fed up with the crazyness and idiocy over the last 1,5 years I'd been in the GO... So instead of going to see the ethics officer, I took the day off!

Best day in my life! - That I can tell you!

And I never returned.. I did fart around with the EO a couple of days. That was to maintain family peace..

:yes:
 
I think it is that finally they lost hope.

I think people look the other way at all the inconsistentcies.

But when so many build up and their personal experience goes bad, then they leave.

They let go of the hope of becomeing a superman or that Scientology can help create a world without war, crime, and insanity, or whatever it was that got them in.

If they still have hope, they may hang in longer. but when the hope dies then they're done.

And when the hope dies, they start to see the whole experience in a new light.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
^^^ This!

It was exactly that for me.. When I got to know the Guardian's Office and the people there.

One specific 'discovery' I made was actually something I disliked psychiatry for.. Psychiatry has a sinister history, in this country, of locking people up, who wasn't crazy or anything... I saw Scientology had the same stripes when I read about the 'Introspection RD' and the 'RPF'.. That shit turned me cold instantly... After reading that, I knew I was trapped in a criminal and very dangerous cult.

:yes:
 

chipgallo

Patron Meritorious
Having gone and returned a few times, I found it to be the reverse of why I came/returned:

Non-traditional therapy that didn't require school or big $$$
turned out to be
Non-scientific hodgepodge and required thousands of hours training and big $$$

Friendly, trustworthy people
turned out to be
Skilled liars (or delusional)

Secret teachings suppressed by evil big governments
turned out to be
paranoid sci-fi author borrowing from anyone without attribution

You get the idea.
 

me myself & i

Patron Meritorious
Most of the people here used to be in CofS. The demographic here is mainly exes- including myself. I've been watching people leave who were extremely devoted to CofS and to Scn. I've seen and heard of OTVIIs leave, newbies leave, former staff, former OSA types, former senior management (!)-- just all sorts of people who really had a lot invested emotionally, financially and even spiritually get angry and leave.

I'm really wondering.

So why do people leave [scientology] anyway?

Very good question. Here is one possible answer:

People leave scientology for the same reason children at some point quit playing with dolls and or miniature army men.

'End of cycle'.

Which end of cycle can be dissected reflected and or otherwise inspected ad infinitum. Courtesy of the mind.

I'm reminded of the story of the hynotist that hypnotised a gentlemen in a room of others and told him after he awakened when the hypnotist *coughed* the man would take off his right shoe and put it on the mantle of the fireplace in the room.

The man awakened.

The hypnotist coughed.

The man took off his right shoe and put it on the mantle.

When asked *why* the man said (without missing a beat) "my right foot was feeling sweaty and hot".

Now how end-of-cycle and growing-up and post-rationalization are connected is this:

....ok, so I don't know how end-of-cycle and growing-up and post-rationalization are connected, but for a moment there I was sure I was onto something....

Lol.

Good question Claire.

mm&i

P.S. The joy of not-knowing may just be more stimulating (emotionally) than the knowing-of-it-all in the end (intellectually). At least during some phase of the cycle of it. Which is kinda like saying mystery is what truth is made of, or truth is what mystery is about. And End of Cycle is the intellectual reality of any cessation of any event. A dry witless cold hard fact. While *wondering why* on the other hand is funner. And *rationalization* is spiritual lore.
 
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SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
<snip> People leave scientology for the same reason children at some point quit playing with dolls and or miniature army men.

'End of cycle'.
There's a difference! - To wit.. I don't vehemently oppose and work to end the practice of kids playing with dolls or toy soldiers on this planet.

<snip> I'm reminded of the story of the hynotist that hypnotised a gentlemen in a room of others and told him after he awakened when the hypnotist *coughed* the man would take off his right shoe and put it on the mantle of the fireplace in the room.

The man awakened.

The hypnotist coughed.

The man took off his right shoe and put it on the mantle.

When asked *why* the man said (without missing a beat) "my right foot was feeling sweaty and hot".
A very noteworthy and interesting ocurrence!

Now how end-of-cycle and growing-up and post-rationalization are connected is this:

....ok, so I don't know how end-of-cycle and growing-up and post-rationalization are connected, but for a moment there I was sure I was onto something....
Hmm.. I'm certain you ARE on to something.. Scientology is practically MADE from post rationalization! - Doubt and skeptism are out ethics though, which hampers any reasonable rationalization.. Tends to render the rationalization quite irrational.. 'Reasonable' is out ethics too BTW!

However.. Post reationalzation is a perpetual activity in Scientology.. Be aware that inability to 'end cycle' is a characteristic of an antisocial personality!

P.S. The joy of not-knowing may just be more stimulating (emotionally) than the knowing-of-it-all in the end (intellectually). At least during some phase of the cycle of it. Which is kinda like saying mystery is what truth is made of, or truth is what mystery is about. And End of Cycle is the intellectual reality of any cessation of any event. A dry witless cold hard fact. While *wondering why* on the other hand is funner. And *speculating* is the stuff of spiritual lore.
Magnifiscent mysteries.. I like it!

:yes:
 

me myself & i

Patron Meritorious
There's a difference! - To wit.. I don't vehemently oppose and work to end the practice of kids playing with dolls or toy soldiers on this planet.

A very noteworthy and interesting ocurrence!

Hmm.. I'm certain you ARE on to something.. Scientology is practically MADE from post rationalization! - Doubt and skeptism are out ethics though, which hampers any reasonable rationalization.. Tends to render the rationalization quite irrational.. 'Reasonable' is out ethics too BTW!

However.. Post rationalization is a perpetual activity in Scientology.. Be aware that inability to 'end cycle' is a characteristic of an antisocial personality!

Magnificent mysteries.. I like it!

:yes:

me too.

lol.

mm&i


p.s. my favorite part is the part where we have the power to speculate *Spiritual Amnesia* to accomodate/rationalize for the minds inability to comprehend the unfolding spiritual thriller before us. Where we ourselves are the Star of the Show (living in a 3-dimensional world as we temporarily are and seemingly do). Lol.

See there? that's the ole heart emotionally speaking at the expense of the rational mind. Lol!

Moar popcorn. :drama:
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
First the smart-ass answer:

How could they promise Cause over MEST when they couldn't even be cause over toilet paper?

More accurately, it was the relentless pressure to conform and give everything -- all time, all assets, all connections -- over to the CofS that I objected to.
 

Coyote13

Thought Criminal
I left because I was able to see the differences between life in scientology and life without it( I was raised in scientology) and life without it is/was better by far, even death is better than being a scientologist( in my eyes it's the same thing, though really, even if you're a scientologist, there's hope of being free/waking up, without dying).

Here's some more reasons:

No one knew of scientology other than other scientologists when it was supposed to be the biggest best thing in the ENTIRE world!( I went to public schools).I finished my purif and passed the emeter check by lying. I passed the success through communications course at age 10 or 11 by lying cause my parents would 8c me into the course room until I pretended to go along( well kinda pretended, I had to do the drills and such). I was sent to flag when I was 12 to live with the lady who we rented our house from in l.a.( still hella weird to me) and I was originally supposed to do the student hat, but a miscommunication with the course supervisor lady who had a french accent caused an upset and they never asked me why I gave a wrong definition of "bank"( i heard her say "bunk" which I asked her did she say bunk and she said she did, very confusing), I was very homesick and it seemed like they wanted to get me out of there as soon as possible and had me rush through the learning book course and write a success story quickly. Scientology teaches you to lie to yourself as well as other and believe it, I had a hard time reconcilling that with the idea of freedom and integrity and such. The emeters couldnt catch a lie. None of the Ot's stopped suppression. I couldnt make sense of scientology. I had more love and compassion from my non scientologist friends parents/adults. I felt scientology thought I was stupid cause I wasn't allowed to hear or see anything negative about it so they must've thought I couldn't think for myself apparently. They charged for services. There were no clears. There were "clears" who wore glasses. Arbitrary punishment for honest questions attempting to understand( I realize impossible to do when deling with scientology, scientology works, period, no questions, no proof, and punishment if you want answers or proof or bring up how it doesnt really seem to work in reality). Abandonment at the ceo. Having to shower in front of adults with other kids while I was a kid. Sexual things that went on with the other sea org kids (and some non sea org child scientologists as well) Being spanked and hit at the ceo. Being made fun of and the subject of ridicule cause of my stepfather being on rpf( I was not on the rpf, and I was 9 years old and did not do anything yet to deserve the rpf). Seeing that there is no freedom in scientology, only their way (any words to the contrary are totally false in my experience, scietology makes you "free" to be a scientologist, nothing else). Hearing lies about people I knew and hand first hand experiences to the contrary. Growing up and looking at things myself and not along scientological ways of thinking. Scientologists tending to be more insane than non scientologists (in my experience).People talking in circles about fantastic things that had no basis in reality( that I could see at least, and with that first hand experience to the contrary in some cases.....).

I don't know that I was ever really a scientologist, unless you count me being a kid who was around adults who talked of fantastic things as if they were true and it made life more interesting till i found out it was all in their head and didn't match reality being a scientologist, though until the age of 13 I considered myself a proud scientologist.

I think it's individual things with each person that let's them see the reality, even if its for a split second, about scientology. Most importantly, I think, it's having questions, and recognizing if something is true, then it will stand up to questioning, and if its not true, then no questions can be tolerated( or you'll see the lie ). Maybe that's just the big thing with me. What's true to you is true to you, for sure, but not neccessarily THE truth( if you think little green dudes live on mars, thats how it is in your mind for sure, but doesnt mean that there really are little green dudes on mars). If it's true for you that you need to deny children access to their parents, to punish them for being sick, to expect them to be and act like adults, to be responsible for clothing themselves, to not be a kid in order to "help" them, doesn't make it really true, you just end up fucking with the childs head, no matter how much you want it to be real that its helping.


(hella sore spot still with being raised in a fucked up belief system that tried to make me hella wrong for wanting to understand and find some truth and needing some questions answered rather than taking what they said as gospel, I was a child then though, they were VERY lucky I was unable to defend myself. I'm an adult now and have gained a tiny bit of wisdom from those experiences and subsequent ones as well, so something good came of it, but that's not to justify their actions)
 
First the smart-ass answer:

How could they promise Cause over MEST when they couldn't even be cause over toilet paper?

this is a paradox, which baffles philosophers to this day, how can active Scientologists complain about a lack of toilet paper in the orgs and not see the mountains of toilet paper surrounding them?

basicbooks2.jpg
 
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The beginning of the end for me was probably working for OTs. Day-in, day-out, dealing with OTs. It occurred to me that I, an unwashed cannibal by comparison, was more "enlightened" than the petulant egos from whom I drew a paycheck. I decided, sometime early in the decade, that I had no interest in becoming like that. (EDIT: This is post St. Louis. The OT I worked for in St. Louis is an AWESOME lady whom I still hold in high regard.)

But why wasn't that enough to send me packing? Why did it take Paul Haggis' resignation and then reading Jeff Hawkins' story to make me turn the corner on all this?

Why do people keep tuning in to the same trash tv show every week? The hope that it will someday get better, pick up and become the tv show you tuned into in the first place. I think that the phenomenon known as "suspension of disbelief" has a lot to do with why people stay. It takes a significant break in the illusion to make an audience member yawn and start looking through the program. When you're engaged and invested in something, you're willing to forgive A LOT.

Hey -- I guess Scientology does teach a kind of forgiveness after all. :)

My theory: It takes a break in the church member's willing suspension of disbelief to make them leave. The most effective form of protest would attempt to bring about what Brecht called Verfremdungseffekt, or "the alienation effect"; an artifical breaking of that suspension of disbelief which forces the previously entranced to evaluate what's going on.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
The beginning of the end for me was probably working for OTs. Day-in, day-out, dealing with OTs. It occurred to me that I, an unwashed cannibal by comparison, was more "enlightened" than the petulant egos from whom I drew a paycheck. I decided, sometime early in the decade, that I had no interest in becoming like that. (EDIT: This is post St. Louis. The OT I worked for in St. Louis is an AWESOME lady whom I still hold in high regard.)

Likewise, I worked with an awesome OT who was one of the nicest people I've ever known. He had a way of just saying a short sentence and making the whole world better.

There was a time when I was totally and completely upset and embarrassed to admit it to him, and was in tears with fear of how he'd react to my meltdown. It just kept getting worse and worse, and once I'd finally vented my meltdown, he said, "It's okay."

And it was. All the fear and everything just dissipated. I don't know what he may have done other than say two words, but it sure felt like someone just cleaned house in my space.

Those kinds of moments are some of the most powerful in my life, and they were the reason I stayed in as long as I did.

I definitely knew the other kind of OT, though, and those people I didn't value at all.
 

byte301

Crusader
I wasn't aware of most of the abuses even though I spent a short (2 or 2 months) in the SO. I knew that kids weren't being cared for from my own observations. I wasn't aware of the extent of the neglect of these kids however.

I left after realizing that I wasn't getting anywhere and that for some reason I no longer felt at home in the org. I hadn't ever agreed with disconnection or sp declares. I was theety weety and silently rebelled at things I didn't like.

Some time or other, when I wasn't looking, the old staff got purged one by one, the old ED got declared, and the org did a complete turn around gradually.

My org had dwindled down to almost nothing by the time I left. The staff weren't trained, very few people were on course, they'd moved the org into a dump. It was dismal. The EO didn't even know what a no case gain was when I told him that's what I was. lol

I walked out and felt free again. I just didn't recognize the feeling for quite some years.:D
 
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